Legitimate authority

[Lauxa]

What gives one human being (or group) legitimate authority over another?

In the middle ages, it was accepted that God was at the top of the hierarchy and then rulers derived their authority from God. That isn't really accepted as valid anymore.

Democracy is supposed to be about leaders deriving authority from consent of the governed. With capitalism and property rights, the "haves" also gain authority over the "have nots" by restricting their access to resources. For instance, if you don't submit to the authority of your boss you don't get paid. Why would people consent to a system in which the majority of people have little or no resources/authority while a few people own plots of land as big as entire states?

Parents have authority over their children, because they are tasked with protecting them and are liable for their mistakes. This seems like a legitimate authority structure.

Thoughts?

[Brutha]

Democracy is supposed to be about leaders deriving authority from consent of the governed.

It not only about individual leaders having the consent of citizens but also about the system itself having consent from the citizens.

Having no system to order society is no altanative. Even if you would have no system for a small amount of time, power creates structures and systems out of nothing.

If you would destroy classical political strucutres some form of mafia would rise up and provide security to people who pay them money without those people having much choice whether to buy it.

Making sure that everyone gets something to eat, a place to sleep at night, infrastrucutre and security gives also political legitimation in the eyes of a lot of people.
By providing those basic services some groups like Hezbola get a lot of political legitimation in their communities.
It also a way that political legitimation can be gained by groups in states like Iraq.
When a state is able to provide those services it can usually count on the consent of it's people.
That provides political capital that let groups win conflicts.

[schola]

It is my belief that all individuals have the right of sovereignty and self government of themselves.

As a collective, we the People have the right to delegate some of our sovereign powers to a government, but ultimately that power still rests in our hands. Those powers can be delegated but never given over to someone else. Government behaves as our servant to carry out some of the sovereign duties we delegate to it.

As individuals we have the right to reject the assumption of authority by anyone or anything.

This is the belief that was shared by the classical liberals like Locke, Smith and Hume, and the founding fathers of the United States. This is also a driving belief of the slavery abolitionists.

In summary, the only legitimate authority an individual can have is authority over him/her self.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by schola

In summary, the only legitimate authority an individual can have is authority over him/her self.

I agree. The only real authority for me is authority that I grant and agree to.
If I don't grant and agree to it, it doesn't exist. That goes for myself as my authority, too.

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by Angela

I agree. The only real authority for me is authority that I grant and agree to.
If I don't grant and agree to it, it doesn't exist. That goes for myself as my authority, too.

I agree also. Too bad it doesn't feel like it.

[Lauxa]

To the people who replied that oneself is the only legitimate authority, does that mean there would never be an instance where a person should be thrown in jail? Because restricting someone's freedom is certainly an exercise of authority, and I would like to think maybe in some cases this authority could be legitimate.

[Angela]

Lauxa, even with jail, if I don't grant and agree to authority, it doesn't exist, as I said.

In the case of the laws that would put me in jail if I were to break them, I do throw my lot in in a societal way -- kind of like a behavioral co-op. I grant and agree to the authority that holds me to rules, on the agreement that others are under the same authority. There aren't any rules, so far, that it's any significant skin off my nose to submit to. It's an equitable agreement for me, and so it's authority that I freely grant and agree to.

[Lauxa]

But the problem is that others aren't under the same rules. Because the rules were supposed to be the Constitution and now that's "just a **** piece of paper" and is mostly ignored. The Constitution was supposed to limit (enumerate) the powers of federal government and establish procedures for important things like amending the Constitution or declaring wars but now we have laws (and executive orders) outside the scope of enumerated powers and undeclared wars.

If the leaders aren't following the rules, why should the people follow the rules? For instance, why should people pay taxes to support a government that is clearly using the monies for nefarious purposes? Levying taxes is a form of authority, is this something you freely grant and agree to?

[Angela]

yup.

[Lauxa]

Is it freely granted and agreed to no matter what, or is there something the government could do at which point you would decide that you no longer choose to submit? And if it is conditional, under what conditions would government taxation become an illegitimate authority for you because you would no longer freely grant that authority?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

Is it freely granted and agreed to no matter what, or is there something the government could do at which point you would decide that you no longer choose to submit? And if it is conditional, under what conditions would government taxation become an illegitimate authority for you because you would no longer freely grant that authority?

Oh, sure! Of course I am free at any moment to respond to actions, by the government or by anyone else, and withdraw my consent to submit. I'm not interested in hypotheticals, but I am surfing a life I love and am willing to respond to what happens in each moment, and I will let you know if anything comes up that has me withdrawing my consent.

And I recognize that whatever I choose in my surfing adventure, there are consequences, and those consequences would affect my choice of how I effect my choice -- i.e., whether I would vocally or silently protest, be willing to go to jail, leave the country, make a film, etc.

How about you? Are you bothered or feel like you're being forced/have no choice in the matter of taxation? What are you willing to do about it if you are?

[Still Growing]

Angela,
I am glad you "feel" free. It must be nice.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

Angela,
I am glad you "feel" free. It must be nice.

Yes, it is quite nice, thank you! Another thing that feels very good is recognizing that if I'm not being free, I have infinite power to generate being free.

Thank you for the kind words.

[Brutha]

I once heared from Alan Watts: "There only one serious question. It's whether or not to commit suicide. Once you make either decision, you can life life much better."

The question of whether or not to accept the authority of the state you are living is similar. You have a free choice either way. You simply have to live with the consequences of your choice, that what taking responsibility for your life is all about.
There no much to gain with leaving that question for yourself unanswered.

[Lauxa]

Yeah, I'm bothered.

I don't like the actions the government is taking, especially some of the stuff the CIA and now other intelligence agencies have been up to. I could list so many thgings I don't like about this government; I was immersed in conspiracy theory for about 2 years before taking up PD. I am not sure if I have built a house of cards in my mind or if there is a real problem with the legitimacy of the government. So I started to ask myself what a legitimate government would look like and what it is that generally give governments legitimacy. Obviously choosing not to pay my taxes would lead to some difficult situations, so although I have a choice, neither option seems ideal to me.

Thanks for all the answers so far, if anyone has any more to add I'm happy to hear it!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

Obviously choosing not to pay my taxes would lead to some difficult situations, so although I have a choice, neither option seems ideal to me.

Maybe it would be a good idea to look for other options, ones with consequences that inspire you. I'm really looking forward to hearing what you choose to do.