Obama may be too different...

[WanderingOak]

Barak Obama keeps saying "Yes We Can!", however, I am starting to think that he is mistaken. Don't get me wrong, now. I think Obama is one of the smartest Presidential candidates that we have seen in a long while, and the best choice this coming November. He does sound a bit like a tent-revival preacher, and that could actually be a drawback. For one thing, there is a lot of extremely visceral hatred of the man.

Email rumors (mainly debunked by snopes) portray him as a radical leftist Muslim who hates everything America stands for. It doesn't matter if the emails are debunked or not, because there are enough knuckleheads out there who don't bother to verify them. As the ideologues keep on saying "If it's not true, it should be".

In fact, I recently witnessed an incident in a supermarket checkout line, when the guy behind me began waving about a copy of People Magazine (with a picture of Obama on the cover), yelling to all within hearing "THIS MAN REFUSES TO SAY THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE, AND HE WILL NEVER REPRESENT AMERICA!!!!!". He glared about, daring anybody to disagree with him. The tattooed troglodyte was 6'5 and built like a pro wrestler, so nobody challenged him. In fact, just about everybody in the store was looking down at their shoes, as if looking the man in the eye would provoke him. The lone cashier on duty was just trying to get the redneck out of the store as quickly as possible without any trouble.

I have heard fire-and brimstone screaming fundamentalists comparing Obama to Nicolae Carpathia, the Antichrist in the Left Behind series. I know this is starting to sound extremely silly, but the people who despise Obama take themselves very seriously. People don't want to say that it is his race that bothers them, so instead they latch onto any other excuse that vilifies him. As the election gets closer and closer, the bile and vitriol is just going to get thicker. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if some lunatic becomes fanatical enough to try the unspeakable, because there are some people out there who just hate Obama that much.

Unfortunately, the alternative to Obama is just plain madness. McCain would just be four more years of the same Bush administration policies that have gotten us so far into a hole that it will take us decades to get out, even if we were able to start right now. The third parties out there don't stand to do much except be spoilers in one direction or the other in a close election, which it is very likely to be.

I want to say "Yes We Can" get beyond this current low point in American politics, start repairing our economy and bring our troops home. However 'hope' and 'faith' in 'change' may not necessarily be enough.

[PianoManGidley]

Originally Posted by WanderingOak

People don't want to say that is is his race that bothers them, so instead they latch onto any other excuse that vilifies him.

That sounds unfair of you...it sounds as if you're suggesting that every single person who is so vehemently against Obama is, indeed, a racist.

[LifeFirst]

It's kind of funny that in America, a land of democracy, with a constitution that states equal rights for all human beings, in 2008....we are still worried about "race". I believe that this country worries more about race than any other country in the World.

[WanderingOak]

Originally Posted by PianoManGidley

That sounds unfair of you...it sounds as if you're suggesting that every single person who is so vehemently against Obama is, indeed, a racist.

No, I am just saying that 'race' is one thing in America that we are NOT able to talk about. So, since we are not able to talk about Barak Obama's race, people who dislike him for such reasons have to latch upon another reason to dislike him. Unfortunately, such reasons start to sound like "Obama is either a secret Muslim or he is not American", or other such similar nonsense, rather than an argument that would actually make sense to a rational, objective observer.

[Lauxa]

I was thinking Obama was a shoe-in, but if it is a close race maybe the Republicans will use those Die-Bold voting machines to get McCain in. I can't believe I forgot about fraud. Hmmm, maybe it's not such a sure thing...

I want Obama to win, but only because my family hates Obama. I hate both Obama and McCain, so if Obama wins we can all hate the president together.

[Still Growing]

Here's my take on Obama for what its worth (or not).

Lets forget for a second that he's a democrat and just a man running for President to try and have objectivity.

EXPERIENCE: This is a bigger achilles heal for him that his race. I think its a valid argument that he has less experience however does he have enough experience? I'd say yes. I think that his dynamic personality far outweighs his lack of time in Washington.

RACE: There is still racism in the world. I've been all over the world and it exists everywhere, yes even in Africa. But I think there are a lot of white people who will vote for him because he is (half) black. In the US there is a huge population of white people who are trying to show and convince black people that they are not racist or prejudice. If Obama were elected then they could feel proud of where the country has gone and they could prove to the black community that not every white person is a racist. I think there is an underlying sentiment about this thats underestimated in the voter's mind (especially the independent and undecided voters). I think the country is ready and ripe for Obama.

HALF BLACK: Lets also discuss that Obama is not black, he is half black and half white. I think its rediculous to label someone is "black" when they are half. This denies half of their heritage. People always talk about Tiger woods being black but what about his Thai heritage. Isn't both equally important? This ideology comes from the segregation days when if you had any black blood you were forced to check the box for "black" and then accept that you were a second class citizen. In the US in today's modern world I wish they would no longer even have a box to check off for race. Race will slowly become irrelevant the day when we stop tracking it, measuring it and labeling it. Labeling Obama as black is very backward thinking given that he's half and half.

POSITION: Some of Obama's position on things such as free college for all scare conservatives or middle the road voters. Many American voters are afraid of Democrats creating a larger gov't. I'm not saying its true or false but only that this is why a lot of Independents often vote Republican. Most Independents are more afraid of a larger central gov't than they are of some Republican's bible thumping. People want programs but they don't want to pay for them.

THE POLITICIAN: Obama is a politician. They will say and do anything to get elected. What makes a good President great is one that can make hard decisions and go with whats right rather than what they promised. I think that the Reverend Wright thing scares people. A lot of people think that Obama might secrety harbor hostile or radical views that Wright possesses. We all know that when people attend church that the Reverend is the director or leader that can influence your position on a subject. It makes no sense to go to a church where you completely disagree with a Reverend's thinking. I would say that Obama probably kept attending that church because of their clout in the black community in Chicago. Lets face it, there are a lot of people who go to church to network or be a part of the community. Its possible Obama is a religous man who simply disagrees with his Reverend. I think that more people distrust this more than his race. This may not be fair but many people secretly believe that Obama is hiding his true feelings. I don't think Obama has a secret radical position; I just think he's a politician and he goes with what will get him there. But, the Reverend Wright thing is hurting Obama still.


SUMMARY: I'm not happy with either McCain or Obama. I'm hoping an Independent jumps on the ballot. But I don't believe that the fact that Obama is "too different" (which is code for being part black people in case you didn't know) that this will in itself keep him from being elected. I think he has a real shot.

[PianoManGidley]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

Many American voters are afraid of Democrats creating a larger gov't. I'm not saying its true or false but only that this is why a lot of Independents often vote Republican. Most Independents are more afraid of a larger central gov't than they are of some Republican's bible thumping. People want programs but they don't want to pay for them.

I think this is a silly position to take, especially considering how much the Republican Party as of late has been trying to create a larger government through laws imposing moral/religious beliefs such as issues over abortion, stem cell research, and gay rights. I swear, it feels like the GOP's motto should be "We Know Better Than You," with as much as those Bible-thumpers try to tell everyone else how we ought to live.

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by PianoManGidley

I think this is a silly position to take, especially considering how much the Republican Party as of late has been trying to create a larger government through laws imposing moral/religious beliefs such as issues over abortion, stem cell research, and gay rights. I swear, it feels like the GOP's motto should be "We Know Better Than You," with as much as those Bible-thumpers try to tell everyone else how we ought to live.

I agree with you about how the Bush party has created a larger gov't with more control.

But it is still true that the Democratic party still has the reputation for wanting to create more gov't programs and they have the reputation for being anti capitalism and slightly more socialistic.

PianoMan you know that sometimes in politics it doesn't matter what is true or not its only the perception.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by WanderingOak

I want to say "Yes We Can" get beyond this current low point in American politics, start repairing our economy and bring our troops home. However 'hope' and 'faith' in 'change' may not necessarily be enough.

Sounds like you should be writing in Ron Paul in November. The other two won't give you what you want. I really see no change coming with either Obama or McCain.

[WanderingOak]

I just came across a blog posting, which featured a video of Obama, talking about nuclear disarmament. To me, the video seemed rational, well measured, and not in the least bit radical. However, if you read the comments after the video, you have to wonder how many frightened people there are out there.

[The David]

I've often wondered if there is one person who will vote for Obama to be seen as 'progressive' for every racist who will vote for McCain because Obama is black.

Regardless, I think the wake of the Bush Administration is the best place for a black (or female) democratic candidate. There are a lot of people who have added 'republicans' to their list of hate-targets.

[The David]

Originally Posted by WanderingOak

I just came across a blog posting, which featured a video of Obama, talking about nuclear disarmament. To me, the video seemed rational, well measured, and not in the least bit radical. However, if you read the comments after the video, you have to wonder how many frightened people there are out there.

Eagh. He said nothing of 'disarming' America. He proposed cutting 'unnecessary' spending and not making new nuclear weapons. He said nothing of making America defenseless.

He's not going to make it. At least he has the young people voting for him.

[pkeod]

Let's face it: if you vote for John McCain and you make less than $150,000 a year, then you're an idiot because he's only planning on giving tax breaks to the very rich, while Obama only plans to give tax breaks to people less fortunate

Obama would actually make the world a better place as president, while McCain would be...

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by pkeod

Let's face it: if you vote for John McCain and you make less than $150,000 a year, then you're an idiot because he's only planning on giving tax breaks to the very rich, while Obama only plans to give tax breaks to people less fortunate

Obama would actually make the world a better place as president, while McCain would be...

I've heard conflicting info about tax cuts by mccain and obama. What is there exact income levels needed for tax cuts?

[pkeod]

Why? His interests are in big business; not the people.

[ThoughtAddict]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

I've heard conflicting info about tax cuts by mccain and obama. What is there exact income levels needed for tax cuts?

See generally Tax Brackets (Federal Income Tax Rates) 2000 through 2008.

IIRC from a link in another thread here, Obama's tax cuts were higher for incomes below the $164k bracket, with no decrease for that bracket and above, while McCain's cuts focused on the top two brackets. It is important to note that people in higher brackets are taxed at the same rate as those in lower brackets for the amount of income that falls within the lower brackets (i.e. a person making $32,000 is taxed only 10% on the first $8,025, then at 15% for the other 16k. Essentially, cuts at lower brackets are cuts for all Americans, compensated by increasing tax on those with high income via increases in higher brackets.

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by pkeod

Why? His interests are in big business; not the people.

Why what?

[pkeod]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

Why what?

Misread a post

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by pkeod

Misread a post

I'm sorry I don't get your sarcasm.

I just asked what their actual policies were and I think you were asking why it mattered. I didn't have a hidden meaning.

[pkeod]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

I'm sorry I don't get your sarcasm.

I just asked what their actual policies were and I think you were asking why it mattered. I didn't have a hidden meaning.

Didn't mean to sound sarcastic!

Here's a chart to better clarify what their policies are:

[Still Growing]

It seems mccains total tax cut is six times more than Obama's. He should match Obama's on the 66k and down family income.

I saw on mccains web site that he has other tax cuts not listed here. I have a feeling that this chart doesnt show the entire picture. Not that I'm for mccain but I'm just interested in the facts.

[pkeod]

Tax cuts are not always a good thing, because then our government has less to spend on important programs (at least that's the idea... our economy is being driven to the ground at the moment to spread freedom and McCain only plans to prolong that endeavor).

The bottom line is that Obama is going to make it easier on people who already don't have a lot of money to work with (while still keeping the overall budget the same), while McCain is only going to give people more to work with who already have a lot of money (while taking 9x more out of the budget). Like I said: if someone votes for McCain and makes under $150k they are edit:making a mistake.

[ThoughtAddict]

Tax policy center has a nice analysis. I haven't double checked it against the current platforms, but it is probably a good starting point:

TPC Tax Topics | 2008 Presidential Candidates' Tax Proposals

[schola]

Originally Posted by pkeod

Like I said: if someone votes for McCain and makes under $150k they are just plain stupid tools.

You're right: Everyone should vote for the candidate that fulfills their own selfish wants and desires. That's what we all do anyway right?

How can you expect any President to bring our country back on track when you vote with greed instead of love?

[pkeod]

Originally Posted by schola

You're right: Everyone should vote for the candidate that fulfills their own selfish wants and desires. That's what we all do anyway right?

How can you expect any President to bring our country back on track when you vote with greed instead of love?

I was making a point. Thanks.

[schola]

Originally Posted by pkeod

I was making a point. Thanks for being a smart ass.

It's a bad point.

What that chart doesn't give you is a figure that varies somewhat, but goes something like this: The richest 20% pay 80% of the taxes. Of course income tax cuts give the rich a bigger break. They pay more in taxes.

I'd like a candidate who would get rid of the income tax all together, instead of taxing successful people more.

A progressive income tax is one of the 10 planks of The Communist Manifesto.

[pkeod]

McCain's Definition of Rich

Think Progress » McCain Jokes About His Definition Of The Rich: ‘How About $5 Million?’

I'm not just talking about taxes anymore.

90% of Americans will pay less tax with Obama. %#&! the richest top percent if they don't want to make it easier on the less fortunate. You're going to talk to me about communism when our government starts an illegal war which is costing us more money than it would cost to GIVE EVERY AMERICAN CITIZEN FULL HEALTH-CARE. I'd rather be a communist. Our government is broken, and someone needs to fix it.

Summary:

Obama's plan will slightly increase debt in the short term.

McCain's plan will MASSIVELY increase debt in the short term. In the long term, he will have to make drastic cuts in services as debt increases to build up more and more, which will weaken our dollar even more than it already is weakened by Bush's policy.

Yes, I'm pro Ron Paul too. But obviously the media is censoring him and making this election Obama vs McCain

[Still Growing]

Pkeod,
I am not pro McCain but I don't think its necessary to call people "plain stupid tools" or "idots" or "smart ass".

From what I can see Schola is debating your ideas.

I agree with many of your points. I think its great that you're passionate and at least you care !

Try to keep debating the points without breaking to forum rules because I'd like to hear more from you.

[pkeod]

Politics... I should avoid talking about them from now on. Politics and religion have got to be the two dumbest things invented.

schola, I apologize if I've offended you. I'm used to talking to less cool people on less cool forums.

[Still Growing]

The tax strategy is not only about what you personally pay out. Its more complex.

If you look at the tax chart above its clear that Obama and McCain's positions are different.

Obama is giving a larger tax decrease to those who make less than $60K for example. McCain is also giving a tax decrease to those who make $60K but it is less than Obamas.

Where they differ the greatest is that Obama's gov't will receive much more taxes but from the weatlthy and the business owners. He will use these taxes to do things like giving free college for all.

My opinion is that I disagree with both programs. I would outline what I think would work better but it would be too hard to implement.

In regards to this particular subject I'm not sure which tax program would work better. On the one hand its good for lower income producing people to pay slightly less taxes, on the other hand the wealthy already pay more than their fair share.

At any rate, I don't like the way the gov't spends our money. I'm not for more war but I'm also not for free college. How about feeding the hungry, creating more jobs, etc? I really don't see that politicians are good at spending our hard earned money.