Should I decide to become a Democrat or Republican?

[freestate]

Hello everyone!

First of all, I've never voted in a general election before, never felt the drive to, but with this big election coming up in November, I'm wondering if I should reconsider. (Though one does wonder if the people do really decide anything anymore.)

Lately I've been pondering: Why do Democrats & Republicans seem to hate each other? For whatever reason, I grew up in a republican-voting household. I don't think my folks ever voted democrat. For them the issue seems to revolve around abortion. (Ah, perhaps I shouldn't even start this thread for fear of fights that people may have... No, I trust this community will be able to handle it.)

And no, I was not successfully "programmed" by my folks to subscribe to one political party. Instead I rely on many different sources and my own small still voice. I myself do not currently subscribe to a political label. And lately I wonder: Should I? I have friends who belong to both of the main parties, but it seems that neither of the members of both parties view the other party in a respectful light.

It's strange. I was born in America and I am an American, but I feel so disillusioned by political conflict that I cannot find good anywhere in the American political system anymore. In many ways I feel like such a visitor to this planet... (but perhaps that's another thread altogether! haha)


So if you'd like, I'd like you to, without arguing with each other, answer a few questions for me:

1. Would you consider, or have you ever, switched from one party to another? And why?
2. Why do Democrats & Republicans seem to hate eachother? (Does this usually revolve around the abortion issue for most folks?)
3. Should I orient myself to one political party, or acknowledge that politics is rather like a deadly game and refuse to participate in fear-based politics?

I'm leaning towards not participating.


And most of all:

Let it be reminded that this forum does not tolerate personal attacks or flaming or other immaturity. I expect you all to respond like above-average intelligence adults.

As always, thank you for being a truly remarkable group of people. You realize this forum is the best growth forum in the world, right?

And lastly:

I really appreciate concise responses. I realize this thread could get incredibly wordy, and I simply don't have the time to read a 2000 word response, so as always, weigh your words.


best,
freestate

[SomeRandomGuy]

First, let me say that I applaud you for giving this such thought rather than following along in the steps of your family which is what a lot of first time voters seem to do.

For a general election, it really doesn't matter if you are registered as a Democrat or Republican. You can vote for whomever you feel is best qualified, regardless of your party affiliation. Actually, it really bothers me when I hear of people who always vote for the candidate from their party for every office, without really knowing what the candidate stands for.

Originally Posted by freestate

1. Would you consider, or have you ever, switched from one party to another? And why?

I can't see myself switching to the other major political party; I just disagree with the overall platform too much. I do, however, find that my views do not perfectly align with either platform. I can see myself switching to an alternate party, if I were to find one whose platform more closely matches my views.

Originally Posted by freestate

2. Why do Democrats & Republicans seem to hate eachother? (Does this usually revolve around the abortion issue for most folks?)

I think this is different for different people, and even varies by region. I grew up in a small rural area, which was primarily democratic. This was primarily for local politics, however. When it comes to Presidential elections the area regularly votes Republican. I am not sure of the reason for voting Democratic in local elections, but I know that the reason for voting Republican in Presidential elections was due to a variety of conservative issues: abortion, gay rights, etc.

Originally Posted by freestate

3. Should I orient myself to one political party, or acknowledge that politics is rather like a deadly game and refuse to participate in fear-based politics?

I would suggest that you evaluate the platform of each party, and determine if either closely matches how you feel on the topics. You may find that one of them is close enough that you are comfortable with that party affiliation. Or you may find that you disagree with so many points of each platform that you can't justify affiliating yourself with either.

I have questioned our two party system for a long time. Now, however, I am starting to question the party system in general. I wonder if it would not be better to get rid of political parties in general, and focus on voting for individuals based solely on their platform (not the platform of their party). I don't know if this would work well in practice, but it would be interested to consider. I don't know that it could be much worse than the broken system we have now.

Whatever you decide, I suggest that you do exercise your right to vote. While the system is broken, I have to think that taking part in a broken system is better than not taking part at all.

As young voters like yourself question the current system maybe we will begin to see change. If the system works at all, then it is in our hands to change it. If we can't change it; if it doesn't work, then I guess we are all in trouble.

[ThoughtAddict]

1. Yes, I would and have. There are a number of reasons. First, my understanding of the world changes. At one point, I would have been Republican (though I was too young to vote), because I felt they did the most to uphold the morals of society. As I grew, I found the Republicans in power at the time to be fake, preaching morality while being greedy and exploiting the people. As a result of that and a pointless ongoing war, I quickly developed humanist leanings which probably would have made me a socialist, far left of Democrats. Most recently, I've come to understand the difficult balancing act required of the United States in providing a higher quality of living for its own citizens without entirely losing its status as a world leader. The Democratic party seems much better equipped to provide this balance.
The second factor that led to me changing parties was that the parties changed. The Republican party no longer seems to favor an economically or internationally conservative stance. I cannot support hundred year occupations, unending war, or deregulated profiteering when they hurt the average person. I could no longer vote Republican.

2. I don't know, but it is sad. It probably stems back to the 60's, when radical elements took prominence at both ends of the spectrum. The clashes were loud and violent. The wounds haven't really healed from that, I think. Combine it with zero-sum politics that focuses entirely on winners and losers and a culture of dirty politics, and it leads to deep, infected wounds. The list of attempted character assassinations on the part of both parties is long and saddening.
There has also been a focus on gaining support from a "base", often single-issue voters (abortion, for example) and people with extremist viewpoints. Politicians are very good at scaring these people by telling them that the other party will irreparably damage the issues they care about. Both parties have tried to do this, but the Republicans have been more successful than the Democrats at it, in my opinion.
I'm not sure what the reason is, but I know it is one of the deepest problems our country faces. I do not think either candidate can fix it, but my impression is that McCain would do damage, and Obama could potentially avoid doing any.

3. You asked three different questions here, I think. First, should you align yourself with a party? No. Align yourself with your own beliefs. Should you participate in fear-based politics? No. Empower yourself and seek the best solution to improve the world. Should you participate in any politics? YES. A resounding Yes. You should seek to move the world more toward the ideals you see. It could be that you have a choice between candidate A and B, with neither fulfilling those ideals. But A would move the world further away from your ideals and B would move it in the same direction. You should, I think, vote for B and seek to move your world in other ways. Voting is such a small act, but it carries significance. It lets your voice be heard.

I remember prior to the invasion of the Iraq war, there were massive protests. The one quote that had the most impact on me was from a female protester responding to a guy who claimed their actions made no difference. She said, "We may not stop the war. We may not create a peaceful world. But at least we're trying. At least we're doing what we can to fix this world. We all speak with one voice for peace, and somewhere, somebody will be listening."


A great thread, by the way. I'm curious to see what others have to say.

[schola]

Originally Posted by freestate

It's strange. I was born in America and I am an American, but I feel so disillusioned by political conflict that I cannot find good anywhere in the American political system anymore. In many ways I feel like such a visitor to this planet...

There is nothing wrong with that. At all. It only means that you are conscious enough to see the corruption and insanity that is in the current system.

The crazy ones are those who think that nothing is wrong. This world and the systems that control it seem just fine to them.

If you feel the need to identify with either party you could, but what would you gain from that? Maybe a sense of inflated ego but that would be it. You would only be taking part in the corrupt system of false choices that is forced onto the American people.

The truth is there is no difference between either party. They pretend to be different. They really want you to think they are different. Because then they can keep up the illusion that we, the people, actually have choices and can affect change.


But it's all just a sham and you should be proud that you can see through it.

You can be educated about politics while still refusing to "play the game." In my experience, (most of) those who still identify themselves as Democrats or Republicans are very ignorant about economics, government, and politics.

[Lauxa]

Originally Posted by freestate

1. Would you consider, or have you ever, switched from one party to another? And why?
2. Why do Democrats & Republicans seem to hate eachother? (Does this usually revolve around the abortion issue for most folks?)
3. Should I orient myself to one political party, or acknowledge that politics is rather like a deadly game and refuse to participate in fear-based politics?

1. My family voted Republican but I haven't supported them since college when I went Libertarian. I couldn't go back to them now, but I don't think I could support the Democrats either.
2. The 2 parties have very much in common but they play on heated issues such as abortion and gun control and health care to make them look different. What they have in common is that they both create bureaucracies that funnel off wealth from the middle class and redistribute it to the rich.
3. I don't see how I could possibly vote for Obama or McCain in the upcoming election, nor do I see any use in voting for a 3rd party candidate.

[MattSuwak]

1. I had No Affiliation at first, and still don't, but I'm leaning towards Republican now. No matter what they've become, at heart a Republican is someone who values individual liberty, and that's what is number 1 in my own book.

2. It's kind of like how different sports teams hate each other. There's a lot of differences between the two, a lot of outspoken people on either end. I think that the loud people overpower those who aren't as vocal or passionate. It's been thrown all over that a Dem could never support or like a Repub, and vice versa. Individual Freedom also doesn't tend to mix well with the Help Your Neighbor philosophy either. That's incredibly generalized, but it's basically saying that Mr. Republican wants to see the results from his own work and ethics directly, while Mr. Democrat tends to see things as being shared and distributed equally. On the extreme left/right, think of the Communist Fidel Castro debating with the likes of Ronald Reagan.

3. It's good that you remember there is more than just the two parties, a lot of people don't acknowledge that. My advice would be to remain Independant for a little while, and then switch your party when you have a solid idea. The most important thing, at least here in Pennsylvania, is that you cannot vote in the Primaries unless you are either Dem or Repub. Check out groups like the Libertarians, etc. so you can see what they have to offer.

[Trezker]

No third party will ever get big unless someone starts voting for them. A vote for a third party is worth infinitely more than a vote for one of the big parties because it so clearly shows that you truly care about politics. Don't just flow with the mainstream and don't give away your power. Both of your major parties suck donkey balls, you should accept that and give what power you can to a better alternative.

It doesn't matter if the third party doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of winning. Just the fact that they're getting votes is enough to get the ball rolling. Please read Steve's latest, just replace dollars with votes...

[Brutha]

First I don't subscribe myself to either American party because I'm no American.

In general there is also no need to label yourself with a party when you want to vote.

1. I had No Affiliation at first, and still don't, but I'm leaning towards Republican now. No matter what they've become, at heart a Republican is someone who values individual liberty, and that's what is number 1 in my own book.

How much percent of the Republican do you think have liberty at heart and how much democracts.

On the extreme left/right, think of the Communist Fidel Castro debating with the likes of Ronald Reagan.

Reagan is not that extreme on the right side as Castro is on the left.
Augusto Pinochet would be someone that is as far right as Castro is left.

That's incredibly generalized, but it's basically saying that Mr. Republican wants to see the results from his own work and ethics directly, while Mr. Democrat tends to see things as being shared and distributed equally.

Republicans also want the state to do everything it can even when it has the cost of personal privacy or human rights to prevent crime.

I think the divide is rather:
Republicans want that the government prevents bad things (crime, drugs, abortions) through being tough and using power but does nothing otherwise when there is no specific problem.
Democrats on the other hand want the government to create good things. Even if there no problem, a democrat wants the government to make things better than they are.
Democrats focus also more on human rights and see it as the job of the government to etablish those rights, whether it's the right to healthcare or the right to not be tortured.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by freestate

1. Would you consider, or have you ever, switched from one party to another? And why?

Yes. When I started becoming aware of politics as a teenager, I became a Republican (wayyy before the current George Bush and his evil ways). However, I never was completely comfortable as a number of beliefs I had didn't fit with the republican views. And every year I would re-evaluate the party and compare the Republican with the Democrats, but at the time I disliked the Democrat's views slightly more so I stayed with the Republican.

Then in my 20's I learned about the Libertarians, and there, finally, for the first time, I didn't have to compromise any of my views like I did with Republicans or the Democrats! So I switch to become a Libertarian.

Now, Philosophical I'm libertarian, but since the Libertarian party has pretty much collapsed this year, I'm without a party which is fine. .

2. Why do Democrats & Republicans seem to hate eachother? (Does this usually revolve around the abortion issue for most folks?)

For one simple reasons. They are each other's biggest threat to their power's party - that is the biggest threat to Democrat's power are Republicans...and vice-versa. Thus, the leaders drum up hatred and fear-mongering against the other party to shore up the support for their party. The weaker their own party are, the weaker the leaders of that party are. And since in the U.S. politics is dominated by just two parties, then the only way one of the two major party can get stronger is if the other party gets weaker.

3. Should I orient myself to one political party, or acknowledge that politics is rather like a deadly game and refuse to participate in fear-based politics?

Don't orient yourself toward the Democrat or Republican parties - those two parties are only after power. Check out and learn about other philosophies and method the government should be run, and then find candidate (either Republican/Democrat or third party) to find that philosophy you agree most. My bias suggestion is that I highly recommend checking out the libertarian philosophy.

There are currently no Democrat or Republican running for office right now that fit my libertarian philosophy, so I'm not voting. When one of them does run, I'll vote for him. In the meantime, I refuse to choose the lesser of two evils, that's not a way to live IMO.

[Still Growing]

The problem with Politicians in general is that they don't know how to create value.

Imagine a guy going to the best schools, getting out and working as a prosecutor, a senator or a military officer. In such jobs they learn that a windfall of money comes from the people and then your job is to figure out how to spend it. THIS IS THE PROBLEM...

Washington is full of politicians that THINK they know better than the American people but they don't. The best and brightest of the country are working in free enterprise and they wouldn't want any part of being President.

[Gabo]

Originally Posted by freestate

1. Would you consider, or have you ever, switched from one party to another? And why?

I registered Republican to support Ron Paul, but I would never officially affiliate myself with one party or another. Just look at McCain and Paul, who were both in the same party, yet were polar opposites on most issues.

2. Why do Democrats & Republicans seem to hate eachother? (Does this usually revolve around the abortion issue for most folks?)

Each party focuses on the negatives of the other party. And since both parties ignore the people and trample our rights, it is easy for them to hate each other.

3. Should I orient myself to one political party, or acknowledge that politics is rather like a deadly game and refuse to participate in fear-based politics?

I think confining yourself to a specific party can lead you to voting for someone you don't necessarily share values with.
I prefer to evaluate all candidates running (not just those in the 2 largest parties) and then vote for the one that feels most congruent with my values.

I'm leaning towards not participating.

I wouldn't recommend doing that.

Just because the candidates in the 2 largest parties don't share your values doesn't mean that all the other candidates are the same. With so many different people running, I am sure that someone out there shares your values.

If good people don't vote for good politicians, we can never expect good government. Whether good people vote for bad politicians out of fear of wasting their vote, or don't vote at all, we are always left with bad government.

[coollikeme]

Both of them are crooks, so it really doesnt matter who you take.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by freestate

Hello everyone!

First of all, I've never voted in a general election before, never felt the drive to, but with this big election coming up in November, I'm wondering if I should reconsider. (Though one does wonder if the people do really decide anything anymore.)

1. Would you consider, or have you ever, switched from one party to another? And why?
2. Why do Democrats & Republicans seem to hate eachother? (Does this usually revolve around the abortion issue for most folks?)
3. Should I orient myself to one political party, or acknowledge that politics is rather like a deadly game and refuse to participate in fear-based politics?

I just registered to vote in this country and this November will be the first time I've ever voted in this country. I think I already know who will win.

Anyway--

1. I have never switched and would never consider it.
2. There are a lot of issues that Democrats and Republicans fight over and differ on:

Generally speaking

- Democrats are pro-choice, Republicans are anti-abortion
- Guns and keeping them is important to Republicans
- Democrats are pro-gay rights, Republicans want to suppress gay rights and most think homosexuality is a sin
- Democrats are more accepting in general, while Republicans are more conservative Christian-types who think a lot of things are sins, except when they do them
- Democrats promote women's rights, Republicans want to suppress them
- Democrats are pro-peace, are less-war-mongering, less prone to feel the need to "flex the American muscle," while Republicans are the opposite of each of those
- Democrats lean towards where European countries already are, while Republicans stand for either keeping things as they are or getting them back like they used to be
- I'm not sure if this is true, but I've been told Republicans give the richest people the biggest tax breaks.

There are a lot of differences and that is one reason they fight so much.

Having said all that, why does this alleged "democratic nation" only have 2 parties to vote for? I think it must be the only "democracy" in the world that only has 2 parties!

[schola]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

The problem with Politicians in general is that they don't know how to create value.

Imagine a guy going to the best schools, getting out and working as a prosecutor, a senator or a military officer. In such jobs they learn that a windfall of money comes from the people and then your job is to figure out how to spend it. THIS IS THE PROBLEM...

Washington is full of politicians that THINK they know better than the American people but they don't. The best and brightest of the country are working in free enterprise and they wouldn't want any part of being President.

Good analysis.

In any job you are rewarded for having the right characteristics. An artist who is creative, right-brained, and good with pencil or paintbrush will go far in his or her field. In a competitive field, the people with the right characteristics will go farther than the rest.

Unfortunately a government that anyone can be a part of rewards a lot of otherwise undesirable characteristics. The people who have these traits will go farther in politics than the rest. I won't list them. You can probably think of what some of these characteristics are, since they make up what has become a stereotype of politicians in this world.

One of the drawbacks of a representative government.

[Gabo]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

Democrats are pro-peace, are less-war-mongering, less prone to feel the need to "flex the American muscle," while Republicans are the opposite of each of those

I strongly disagree.

Neither major party in the US is pro-peace.
Not only has the Democratic-controlled Congress failed to end the war, they have continued appropriating big off-budget funds to continue the war.

They are also forcing through a bill to practically blockade all of Iran, which is basically an act of war.

Having said all that, why does this alleged "democratic nation" only have 2 parties to vote for? I think it must be the only "democracy" in the world that only has 2 parties!

Well, the United States is not a democracy. It is a republic.

We have far more than just 2 political parties. We also have the Constitution, Green, and Libertarian parties, and plenty more than that I'm sure.

[Still Growing]

The Democratic party is a group of corrupt power hungry politicians who are looking for personal gain and power. They choose to cater to the liberals and tell them what they want to hear because there is a large pool of liberal voters in the country. The Democratic politician will fulfill as little as the promises to the American people as he can get by with while catering to his special interests and cater to those in the nation that harness the power and influence that he wishes to be apart of.

The Republican party is a group of corrupt power hungry politicians who are looking for personal gain and power. They choose to cater to the conservatives and tell them what they want to hear because there is a large pool of conservative voters in the country. The Republican politician will fulfill as little as the promises to the American people as he can get by with while catering to his special interests and cater to those in the nation that harness the power and influence that he wishes to be apart of.

As a Democrat you can generalize that Republicans are backward, conservative and religious. In general you can look at the Republican party and make stereo types based upon the worst positions of the party. In truth there are many balanced Republicans who simply vote Republican because they are lied to by the Republican politicians that they will make the gov't smaller, use fiscal conservative policies and keep taxes lower. In truth none of it happens.

As a Republican you can generalize that Democrats are robin hoods, tattoo wearing socialists who want to bring down religion and build up a larger gov't that taxes us to death. In general you can look at the Democratic party and make many stereo types based upon the worst positions of the party. In truth there are many balanced Democrats who simply vote Decocratic because they are lied to by the Democratic politicians that they will make more social programs, to create more taxes on the rich so that the gov't can become larger and help the common man out more. In truth none of it happens.

The REAL TRUTH PEOPLE is that if you believe 100% that one party is the right one in every argument then you're blind.

What we need is someone who has the courage to go against his party to simply tackle each issue. The problem is that they loose credibility and support of their party and congress if they betray them. This puts shackles on the President as soon as he is elected.

I believe that only when an animal is cornered and fearful for its life can you truly see how high it can jump. On the same token, only when the US is near collapse will we be open to "hearing" the truth and will the people put the pressure on Congress to make the right changes. But the truth is that we're simply not ready for it. There must be more cracks in our foundation before we are really ready for the change coming.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by Gabo

I strongly disagree.

Neither major party in the US is pro-peace.

Yes, I agree with that, but relatively speaking.
I guess what I meant was that it seems like Democratic citizens seem to want to end the wars and not start them in the first place.

Originally Posted by Gabo

Well, the United States is not a democracy. It is a republic.

By popular usage, however, the word "democracy" has come to mean a form of government in which the government derives its power from the people and is accountable to them for the use of that power. In this sense the United States might accurately be called a democracy. ThisNation.com--Is the United States a democracy?

That's what I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by Gabo

We have far more than just 2 political parties. We also have the Constitution, Green, and Libertarian parties, and plenty more than that I'm sure.

None of which matter, because effectively there are only two parties. Every other country effectively has many parties on the ballot that win seats in the government.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

Yes, I agree with that, but relatively speaking.
I guess what I meant was that it seems like Democratic citizens seem to want to end the wars and not start them in the first place.

Perhaps. However, that's a fickle nature. Back in the 90's, the democratic president was all into attacking and bombing half a dozen other nations while the Republican decried and were against most of that.

When Bush was elected in 2000, he made a strong point of being against the military actions his predecessor had undertaken and had declared he'd pull back troops oversee and bring them home and stop the U.S. from being the military police of the world. Instead, he did the opposite.

When the democrats took power over in 2006, they pledge to stop the Iraq War. Instead they voted to continue funding for it several times.

So, um, yeah.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by seeker5

Perhaps. However, that's a fickle nature. Back in the 90's, the democratic president was all into attacking and bombing half a dozen other nations while the Republican decried and were against most of that.

When Bush was elected in 2000, he made a strong point of being against the military actions his predecessor had undertaken and had declared he'd pull back troops oversee and bring them home and stop the U.S. from being the military police of the world. Instead, he did the opposite.

When the democrats took power over in 2006, they pledge to stop the Iraq War. Instead they voted to continue funding for it several times.

So, um, yeah.

What I said was that it seemed like Democratic citizens, as opposed to politicians, were against war.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

What I said was that it seemed like Democratic citizens, as opposed to politicians, were against war.

Yeah, but Democratic party citizens don't get elected, it's the politicians who do

Maybe it's the anti-war people who join the party out of power? And maybe whichever party is currently out of power caters to the anti-war folks as a way to gain more power...? And whichever party is currently in power thus use their propaganda machine to line up their party's supporters for whatever war they are currently involved in?

So, maybe Obama gets elected, and starts another war invading another country, and then it'll be the Republican who'll eventually become anti-war?

[Jamesy]

Originally Posted by freestate

1. Would you consider, or have you ever, switched from one party to another? And why?
2. Why do Democrats & Republicans seem to hate eachother? (Does this usually revolve around the abortion issue for most folks?)
3. Should I orient myself to one political party, or acknowledge that politics is rather like a deadly game and refuse to participate in fear-based politics?

First of all, thank you for exercising your voting rights. If everyone did, the world would be a better place. Furthermore, good job trying to become informed instead of sticking to issues such as flag pins or age or whathaveyou.

This is going to be a bit long because I'm a political junkie and I'm passionate about it.

I want to first say to you that you should not be a democrat OR a republican. Be an independent who is well informed and you'll do yourself a greater service. The founding fathers of the US warned against forming parties, but it happened anyway and here we are. The reality is that the democrats and republicans are two sides of the same coin. They do differ on some issues, but they are NOT interested in increasing democracy. If that were true, they would dissolve the parties and allow candidates to run on the strength of their ideas and character. Instead, they both collude to stack the odds against giant men with small wallets and without powerful friends. There has been a Bush or a Clinton in the Whitehouse for the past 28 years. That's about has close to an oligarchy as you can get.

1. I favoured Ron Paul during the primaries, technically he is a republican but not a modern one. He is a staunch constitutionalist, never voting for a bill that defied the Constitution's principles. He is a man of proven integrity. While I may not agree with everything he says, he is without a doubt, the man with the highest integrity in Washington. It is shameful that he was so marginalized by the Republican party, and foolish because it's the only way they're going to win back the Whitehouse this year. People are sick of neoconservatives.

Barack Obama would be the best candidate for president. He is fresh (keep in mind he has more political experience than George W. Bush did when he was appointed President by the Supreme Court), and most of his ideas appeal to me. What I worry about is his tacid approval of Bush's policies, illegal wiretapping, impeachment, and others. It indicates to me that he is not the "change" I can truly believe in. I do believe he will be the next President of the US.

McCain would be a disaster, and here's why. He has PTSD from his experience in Vietnam and is prone to violent verbal and physical outbursts. He does not have as much integrity as the media portrays. It can be easily argued that McCain is nothing but an opportunist, relying on his father and grandfathers' reputations as Admirals to gain access to prestigious Air Force positions, where he went on to crash 5 planes on non combat missions, crashed his bomber over enemy territory and was captured, gaining preferential treatment over other prisoners because of his cooperation, coming home to his poor and invalid but loyal and loving wife, dumping her for a beer heiress and using her father's money to launch a career in politics. Not to mention his becoming a doormat to neoconservatives after being smeared with a false story about him fathering an illegitimate child (there is plenty true about McCain they could have said) back during the 2000 primaries against George W. Bush. All that, and I disagree with him on almost every issue. Don't take my word for any of this, look it up for yourself and decide what's true and what's not. It's a pretty deep rabbit hole and I haven't yet found the bottom.

2. They do and they don't. Politics is politics, and although some individuals from both sides do have ideological differences, they know it's still their game. As long as people don't inform themselves and hold their representatives accountable there will be no hope of changing anything substantial. That's why I'm glad the internet is so widespread in such a small amount of time. I started using BBSes, a precurser to the 'net back in 1989 (grade 1) but I only knew a handful of people who did the same. Now the world is at your fingertips. Beware of false or unproven information, know it but take it with a grain of salt. As for issues like abortion, these issues are simply wedges to polarize voters and are of little or no importance. Abortion is a moral issue for those who are opposed to it, and an issue of freedom of choice and ne'er shall the two reach a compromise. As for myself, I am someone who is morally opposed to frivolous abortions, however recognizing the need for women to be able to choose what to do with their bodies free of legal sanctions. I also recognize the social impact of unwanted children and their greater potential for glory because of their poor start in life.

3. Don't align yourself with a political party, or if you do, realize it doesn't make you a mindless drone of some collective will. "Fear based politics" is effective only on the ignorant. Both major parties AND the media are only serving themselves by dumbing down the discourse, and doing a disservice to everyone else.

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

What I said was that it seemed like Democratic citizens, as opposed to politicians, were against war.

Don't believe the polls, Republican citizens are against war too. Don't forget that some Democrats were all for going to war until it became unpopular. If you cast a secret vote right now then I would bet that more than 50% of registered Republicans would start withdrawing troops.

Why don't they say it publicly you ask?

Because Republican sheep or citizens as you call them say what they think they should be saying just like Democratic sheep say what they think they should be saying. Right now Obama is talking about getting agressive with Afganistan and he is planning to redirect military efforts. He won't be the anti war person liberals think he will be. But wait and see if Obama is elected then Republicans will say he is mismanaging the war and Democrats will stand up and justify Obamas actions, Seeker 5 hit the nail on the head with this. You seem to me to be a Dem sheep that will fall in line. Just remember what I'm saying and you too will become Independent and jaded against the Rep and Dem party.

Bitsy, they want to keep us polarized so that there will always be an ebb and flow. Its all a mirage.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

Just remember what I'm saying and you too will become Independent and jaded against the Rep and Dem party.

I already am (not an independent, but...). I hate politics period. And the politics I hate most of all is American politics. When there are just these two choices, then that's all there is to discuss, so that's what I discuss. Realistically, we know that no other party's politician is going to win.

Way back in late winter when I heard of who Obama was and that he was running, I was thrilled, because...it was on Al Jazeera that I first saw it, so I had hopes of him doing some good and mending some wounds in relations with Arab nations. I admit, I got my hopes up. I still think he would do less damage than McCain.

[Gabo]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

effectively there are only two parties. Every other country effectively has many parties on the ballot that win seats in the government.

There are "effectively" only two parties because the majority of people believe so.
Any other party can win the presidency, but they have to do so by taking the most votes.

The reason two of our parties are so bloated is that people choose to vote for candidates they don't agree with, rather than find the candidate that shares their values.

This causes a huge separation between the values of the voters and the values of the politicians, because the voters no longer vote based on values. They vote based on party.


Americans are for peace and liberty.
American politicians are for war and the police state.


As long as good people keep voting for bad politicians, we will continue to have bad government. The other parties won't gain any steam while we continue to sit around waiting for them to get popular. If you think another party is a better fit than the major two, then you have to do something about it or we will end up with more of the same.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

I already am (not an independent, but...). I hate politics period. And the politics I hate most of all is American politics. When there are just these two choices, then that's all there is to discuss, so that's what I discuss. Realistically, we know that no other party's politician is going to win.

I feel like saying in Yoda's voice: Don't underestimate the power of the third parties, young padawan!

3rd parties impact politics not by winning offices, but by winning enough votes to make one or the other party lose. Frequently elections in the U.S. are won by just a few percentage points - sometimes by 1% or less. When third parties get 3-4%, and the winner wins by 1%, you can bet the major political parties take a very close look at those third parties and adopt some of their policies to keep from losing too many voters.

When I vote for a third party, I don't vote because I know they're going to win. I vote because I'm sending a message to the two major party. If enough people vote with me, voting their consciences instead of voting for the lesser of two evils, then I know the major parties are going to look at my message.

That's what happened with the socialist party the first half of the century. They never won much, but they sought they sought to influence government. Eventually, the Democratic party and the Republican parties, to keep voters from voting Socialist, adopted a huge amount of the Socialist parties' platform, including minimum wages, etc. So the American Socialist party, despite not winning elections, succeeded in getting their platform enacted in the U.S.

In the 90', the Reform party had a huge impact. Even though they never won offices, the Reform party's budgetary goals concerning deficit and the debt were largely taken up by the Republican when they took over congress.

Furthermore, remember that the main parties - Democrat and Republican parties aren't "purest" parties. They are coalitions. The Republican party is mainly a coalition between three groups - the religious groups, the neoconservative, and the small-government people. The Democratic party is a coalition between a huge number of groups as well, some with conflicting aims and goals. So their agenda, their platform changes overtime. Thus, that's why third parties can have a huge impact on the major parties, since the major parties aren't "pure" parties, but rather, coalitions united under an umbrella wiling to adapt their platforms so they gain the power to govern.

Thus, the two major parties - Republican and Democrat parties are interested in power. The 3rd parties are interested in their platform, their ideas getting enacted. So, 3rd parties can and do succeed in their goals and objectives without actually getting elected.

The best thing, is that it only takes a few percentage of the voters to do so and have a good impact. So in a way, I may have more impact with my voting for a 3rd party candidate, then you do if you only stick to one of the major two parties.

[Trezker]

Hmm, maybe Steve's latest, tolerance is resistance to love, applies to this too. You need to stop tolerating the two dominating parties. If enough people stop voting for them, who knows what'll happen.

[Jamesy]

Originally Posted by seeker5

I feel like saying in Yoda's voice: Don't underestimate the power of the third parties, young padawan!

Case in point: The Green Party of Canada now has 13% in most recent polls. During the last election they received ~4% of the vote.

Proportional representation improves representation even more than the horrible first past the post system. Every democracy should use proportional representation.

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

I already am (not an independent, but...). I hate politics period. And the politics I hate most of all is American politics. When there are just these two choices, then that's all there is to discuss, so that's what I discuss. Realistically, we know that no other party's politician is going to win.

Way back in late winter when I heard of who Obama was and that he was running, I was thrilled, because...it was on Al Jazeera that I first saw it, so I had hopes of him doing some good and mending some wounds in relations with Arab nations. I admit, I got my hopes up. I still think he would do less damage than McCain.

I agree with you that if our goal is to mend the wounds with the moderate muslims then Obama would be a better choice. No doubt that the Muslims in the region do not want nor like the US presense there. The reason is that Iran, for example, has said that they hope that Israel could be wiped from the face of the earth. The US is in Iraq to not only have military bases to squash training camps but we're also there to protect Israel. Nobody talks about this because the gov't doesn't want this issue to be debated.

[freestate]

Thanks so much to Jamesy, Still Growing, and everyone else who can contributed to this discussion! I have a feeling that your words will be read and help more people than you all can imagine due to this thread being indexed in google.

I agree with much of what has been stated here. Complete devotion to a single party is short-sighted, and both are corrupt.

The question becomes whether to vote at all. Steve has said that he doesn't vote because he doesn't want to participate in fear-based politics, and I'm inclined to agree.

[Dannyboy1]

How about being YOU? Have your own mind. The voting system is a fraud anyway. Bush bought both elections.