U.S. Dept. of Energy states Hydrogen can be produced by Electrolysis.

[infinitethoughts]

A number of posters on here are having trouble concieving that Hydrogen can be produced by Electrolysis, or are saying the energy ratio is too prohibitive, which I can fully understand.

With any new technology it is good to question it and be skeptical. In addition a lot (not all) of the websites promoting it do not seem up to par.

I don't have the scientific background to fully be able to debate and explain it, so have to resort to researching through other means.

I've finally tracked down a reliable source that everyone can accept.

That said, for me, this is not about a battle of who's right and who's wrong, but more importantly, it's about moving us forward to a fuel(s) that:

• Do not harm humans and the environment.

• Moves us away from a Monopoly (with huge jumps in pricing) as source fuel for our vehicles.

U.S. Deptartment of Energy | Alternative Fuels and Advanced Vehicles Data Center | Hydrogen

Hydrogen has the potential to revolutionize transportation and, possibly, our entire energy system. The simplest and most abundant element in the universe, hydrogen can be produced from fossil fuels and biomass and even by electrolyzing water. Producing hydrogen with renewable energy and using it in fuel cell vehicles holds the promise of virtually pollution-free transportation and independence from imported petroleum.

Alternative Fuels and Advanced Vehicles Data Center: Hydrogen Production
The following are some ways to produce hydrogen. Many are in the early stages of development. For more information, see Hydrogen Production

• Renewable electrolysis—an electric current generated by renewable energy technologies, such as wind or solar, splits water into hydrogen and oxygen.

[Brutha]

Their way is:
Build a big power source, maybe a nuclear power plant, solar or wind.
Use that power to split water into Oxygen and Hydrogen.
Tank the vehicals with that Hydrogen.
Afterwards the vehical drives on hydrogen.

Somewhere you have to pay for your energy by generating it somehow. It might be produced in a large number of different ways.

Unfortunatly you can't plug a car into a power outlet while you drive. That means that you have to find someway to store the energy to load it onto the vehicle.
That might be lithium bateries, hydrogen that get produced by splitting water or compressed air.
But you also have to create the energy somewhere by investing into solar or other green energy source. Hydrogen is no energy source but a way to store energy.

At the moment we neither know which way is the best way to store energy nor which is the best way to produce our energy in the future.
There is a good argument to be made that you should use a large energy mix to create the energy, because you become less dependent on events that reduce the efficency of one energy source.

But at the moment we should as society also experiment with a large number of different ways to store energy.
Hydrogen is one of them. But you don't get it somehow for free while you drive.
You have to use energy derived from other sources to get your hydrogen.

[schola]

Brutha is right. No one denies that electrolysis works. You seem to think this is something revolutionary but it is not.

Scientists have been doing it for more than 100 years. I remember my high school chemistry teacher did it in class one day and captured the hydrogen in a balloon. Then turned out all the light and he ignited the balloon (from a safe distance), and the balloon went pop! in a little explosion of flame. Cool stuff. But nothing out of the ordinary.

It was an average run of the mill science experiment and he never claimed it was free energy or anything of that sort, because it wasn't.

Hydrogen from electrolysis functions as a battery, not a fuel source. It stores energy until it is burned at which point the energy is expended and it turns back into water. It needs electricity to work. Where does this electricity come from? From the local power plant. So hydrogen technology is only as clean as the power source. If you are using a coal-fired power plant to power the electrolysis process, it isn't all that "clean."

[infinitethoughts]

Right.
Thats their way of doing it.

You can do it yourself by researching and finding a legit Hydrogen on Demand product.

[schola]

Have you yourself bought and tested one of these products yet?

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by schola

It was an average run of the mill science experiment and he never claimed it was free energy or anything of that sort, because it wasn't.

And where do you get from my post I'm claiming it's Free energy ???

All I said is there is a Monopoly with huge pricing jumps.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by schola

Have you yourself bought and tested one of these products yet?

Not yet. Still researching best model to buy. Then have to find an installer.

[schola]

Cool. I'm skeptical but interested. Keep the forum posted on how it goes.

[schola]

Here is a "free" energy motor that people seem to be taking seriously over at another forum:

http://www.energ***eticfor***um.com/...-must-see.html

I'm not sure how it works but apparently it uses radiant energy? Not sure what that is.

EDIT: Bah, the forum doesn't like the domain name for some reason, so take out the *** in the url.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by schola

Cool. I'm skeptical but interested. Keep the forum posted on how it goes.

Definitely.

Originally Posted by schola

Here is a "free" energy motor that people seem to be taking seriously over at another forum:

http://www.energ***eticfor***um.com/...-must-see.html

Yeah my buddy sent me that link. Have'nt had time to look at it. I'll have to look into it. Thanks for reminder.

[schola]

Here's a link about radiant energy and Tesla's work. Tesla discovered AC power and invented radio, yet his work on radiant energy has been largely ignored: AionAlchemyâ„¢ - radiant

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by schola

Here's a link about radiant energy and Tesla's work. Tesla discovered AC power and invented radio, yet his work on radiant energy has been largely ignored: AionAlchemyâ„¢ - radiant

Cool. I'll check it out later when I get a chance. Sounds intriguing since it's based on Tesla's work.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by schola

Hydrogen from electrolysis functions as a battery, not a fuel source. It stores energy until it is burned at which point the energy is expended and it turns back into water. It needs electricity to work. Where does this electricity come from? From the local power plant. So hydrogen technology is only as clean as the power source. If you are using a coal-fired power plant to power the electrolysis process, it isn't all that "clean."

It's a first step though. If your car runs on hydrogen, the fuel plant can be converted from coal to something else and your car will still work.

But if your car runs on oil then you're stuck with oil, period.

[ChefSalad]

Originally Posted by Keith

It's a first step though. If your car runs on hydrogen, the fuel plant can be converted from coal to something else and your car will still work.

But if your car runs on oil then you're stuck with oil, period.

Not true. Our cars' (gasoline) engines were actually originally designed to run on alcohol. While, today, there are issues with running on straight alcohol (mostly due to parts that corrode easily in the presense of water and/or pure alcohol), these issues are cheaply solved by manufacturers. Futhermore, both wood and grain alcohol (methanol and ethanol, respectively) can be converted to a gasoline substitute very cheaply.

One such example is Switchfuel, which is made from methanol (from switchgrass, hence the name). Switchfuel is a synthetic gasoline at 104 octane. While it IS gasoline, it contains no petroleum. All modern gasoline engines can run it without modification. (Yes, your car will run fine on 104 octane fuel. No, it won't get better performance. A discussion of what octane ratings actually mean would take several paragraphs and does not belong here.)

Gasoline engines can also run on a number of gaseous fuels, albeit with numerous modifications (mostly to fuel intake and storage systems, not to the engine itself). These fuels include wood gas and methane. Both are natural and cheap. Wood gas can be made on the fly from wood, paper, grass clippings, dried dung, etc, using a wood gas generator. You would be left with an ashy byproduct similar to coke, which can be burned, mixed with unburned wood, to heat homes and water. Methane, of course, is easily obtained from dung.

Deisel engines were originally invented to run on lard. Unlike their gasoline counter-parts, these engines can still run on lard, unmodified, at least in warm weather. In cold weather, an inexpensive fuel heater is required (alternatively, methanol can be added to the oil). Deisel engines can also run on (unmodified, except for the fuel warmer) vegetable oil, used cooking grease, used motor oil, automatic transmission fluid, kerosene, gear oil, fish oil, etc.

To say that engines designed to run on petroleum products must always run on petroleum products is completely and utterly false. Natural organic alternatives (truthfully, the originally intended fuels) are available for all common engine types.

Now the real question is why don't we run on these fuels. The truth is because the gasoline distributors won't distribute these alternate fuels. In most cities, you can buy filtered cooking grease and motor oil from a number of "semi-commercial" sources. Where I live, I know of at least three people who buy used motor oil and used cooking grease, filter it and sell it to local deisel truck and car owners. In the winter they add methanol to it, to keep it from solidifying (this is what is meant by bio-deisel). These guys sell it for about a dollar less than the going diesel price and they're still making multiple dollars per gallon.

Another reason we don't use alcohol based fuels, is that congress pressures farmers into growing corn for alcohol production. Unfortunately, corn sucks for making alcohol. Grasses and beets are much cheaper (approximately one eighth the cost) and more efficient, but the gov't keeps paying people not to grow them. The most efficient plant would be hemp, which can be used to produce very cheap oil and methanol, as well as a fiber significantly stronger than cotton, nylon, rayon or wool, which can be made into both fabric and paper, at a fraction of the current cost. Unfortunately, that plant is straight-up illegal.

[Brutha]

Sounds intriguing since it's based on Tesla's work.

Whether or not something is based on Tesla's work shouldn't matter.

Science is about trying things were you don't know for sure whether they will work or don't work. It's not about authority through big names.

Now the real question is why don't we run on these fuels. The truth is because the gasoline distributors won't distribute these alternate fuels. In most cities, you can buy filtered cooking grease and motor oil from a number of "semi-commercial" sources.

Biofuels have a few problems with taking off farm land that can be used for growing food and there some argument to be made that it increase the food prize. The high food prize is at the moment one of the global issues that kills a lot of people.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Whether or not something is based on Tesla's work shouldn't matter.

Does to me, considering how his life got destroyed by competing interests. His Bio is out there and makes a fascinating, but sad read.

[infinitethoughts]

ITM Home Hydrogen Refueling Station Unveiled | Hydrogen Cars and Vehicles

The ITM home hydrogen refueling station is based upon a special proprietary plastic membrane, which took six years to develop, and separates water into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen is then separated and used to refuel the H2 car.

(Note: This cannot be run on a car designed for gasoline. Only one like the Hydrogen Honda FCX.)

[infinitethoughts]

Rare Microorganism That Produces Hydrogen May Be Key To Tomorrow's Hydrogen Economy

From Sciencedaily.com

[schola]

If zero point/vacuum energy is real, and you could tap that energy and turn it into electricity to charge the electrolysis process, then you could potentially have a free source of hydrogen.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by schola

If zero point/vacuum energy is real, and you could tap that energy and turn it into electricity to charge the electrolysis process, then you could potentially have a free source of hydrogen.

Schola. Looks like you're researching that. I'm spending my time on hydrogen. Let us know what you find about the zero point/vacuum energy.

Talking about a free source of hydrogen. This morning found this. To me this classifies as the classic Free Energy. No power needed to gain power wanted.

Personally I'm jazzed about all this. It seems the times of fleecing the masses of their hard earned money is slowly coming to an end. (In the Gasoline world, that is.)
Chevron posts record $18.7 billion profit (Thats Billion, not Million.)


Green Wombat: The Solar-Powered Home Hydrogen Fueling Station

When Green Wombat was in Australia recently, I had the opportunity to interview Dr. Sukhvinder Badwal, a fuel-cell scientist at the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization, or CSIRO. Badwal leads a team that is developing a solar-powered home hydrogen fueling station that can be installed in a corner of your garage. My story on the hydrogen fueling station appears in the current issue of Business 2.0 and online at CNNMoney.com. The piece is part of a package of Business 2.0 stories headlined "8 Technologies for a Green Future" and "Go Green, Get Rich." I'll be highlighting a few of those technologies in subsequent posts.

[Brutha]

No power needed to gain power wanted.

Because the Solar panel is already integrated.

Using Solar to generate Energy, especially for something like this where it doesn't matter if there is no sun at certain times during the day is certainly Green. However Solar panels costs a lot.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by ChefSalad

Our cars' (gasoline) engines were actually originally designed to run on alcohol. While, today, there are issues with running on straight alcohol (mostly due to parts that corrode easily in the presense of water and/or pure alcohol), these issues are cheaply solved by manufacturers. Futhermore, both wood and grain alcohol (methanol and ethanol, respectively) can be converted to a gasoline substitute very cheaply.

Interesting. We actually run 10% ethanol fuel, but I didn't realise existing engines could be so easily converted to 100%.

Originally Posted by ChefSalad

Now the real question is why don't we run on these fuels. The truth is because the gasoline distributors won't distribute these alternate fuels. In most cities, you can buy filtered cooking grease and motor oil from a number of "semi-commercial" sources. Where I live, I know of at least three people who buy used motor oil and used cooking grease, filter it and sell it to local deisel truck and car owners.

Isn't there a scalability problem? Running a car on used cooking grease is awesome, but there isn't enough of it to run millions of cars. Similarly, I recall hearing that growing alcohol uses too much space to scale to the quantity required. But correct me if I'm wrong.

[infinitethoughts]

Since 2003 Mecerdes-Benz-Daimler using Hydrogen via Electrolysis on Buses | HyFLEET:CUTE (Hydrogen Fleet Clean Urban Transport for Europe)

The principle of fuel cell drive systems is simple and efficient: fuel cells produce energy from a reaction of hydrogen and atmospheric oxygen with an efficiency rate of up to 60%. This makes it about twice as high as with diesel engines. The electricity gained from electrolysis drives a 200 kW electric motor. The buses have a range of 300 kilometers; the top speed is 80 km/h. The fuel cell system and the hydrogen compressed to 350 bar are on the roof. The bus holds 70 passengers. The fuel cell buses are very popular as they run smoothly and quietly with no emissions.

(Article does not say what energy is used for the electrolysis process, tho.)

[infinitethoughts]

Schola.
Lools like there's a lot of info about Radiant Energy. Interesting stuff. (Connected with Tesla's work.)

What have you found out?

[infinitethoughts]

Right off the bat, Wiki article on it, doesn't reference Tesla as much as PESWiki article

Interesting.

[infinitethoughts]

My my, this is interesting.

CNNMoney.com \ Small Business \ FSB Features BlackLight Power's physics-defying promise: Cheap power from water «

Re-writing Quantum Physics? A lot of mainstream scientists are very unhappy with this, it seems.

My view? Science is always expanding and discovering the mysteries of the universe. To caterogically state we know everything is not prudent.

Should be interesting to see how this unfolds.....

[schola]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

My my, this is interesting.

CNNMoney.com \ Small Business \ FSB Features BlackLight Power's physics-defying promise: Cheap power from water «

Re-writing Quantum Physics? A lot of mainstream scientists are very unhappy with this, it seems.

My view? Science is always expanding and discovering the mysteries of the universe. To caterogically state we know everything is not prudent.

Should be interesting to see how this unfolds.....

Heard about them a couple years ago. It sounded promising; especially since they have some gotten some serious funding. Like, 50 million dollars in funding.

I see they are still going strong. Good deal.

[schola]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Schola.
Lools like there's a lot of info about Radiant Energy. Interesting stuff. (Connected with Tesla's work.)

What have you found out?

I'm thinking about trying to build one of these to test it out for myself:

Directory:Bedini SG - PESWiki

It's called the schoolgirl because a 10 year old girl built one similar to this design for a school fair. It ran a light for 5 days on a AA battery or something.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by schola

I'm thinking about trying to build one of these to test it out for myself:

Directory:Bedini SG - PESWiki

It's called the schoolgirl because a 10 year old girl built one similar to this design for a school fair. It ran a light for 5 days on a AA battery or something.

Lol. Yeah I remember reading about the 10 year old school. If you do build it, let us know how it turns out.

[infinitethoughts]

This is older news dated 1/30/2007.

Holland Marine Equipment | News | Consortium of Dutch companies starts development of hydrogen boat produced by means of electrolysis on the basis of electricity from wind energy.

World's first commercial hydrogen boat
The ‘green’ roundtrip boat has a capacity of 100 passengers and is expected to be completed later in 2007. In order to enable this, the consortium will also place a tank station that will supply the boat with hydrogen. The required hydrogen will be produced by means of electrolysis on the basis of electricity from wind energy. Today, small boat vessels operating on hydrogen already exist, but a commercially exploited hydrogen boat of this dimension is a world first.