U.S. Dept. of Energy states Hydrogen can be produced by Electrolysis.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by escapee

Platinum is not .

You're missing the context of what I'm saying, Escapee.

You posted this quote: An Australian researcher has warned that the drive to put cleaner, hydrogen-fuelled cars on the road will stall unless new reserves of platinum are found.

This researcher has taken the point of view that the world needs to be warned that production of Hydrogen for Hydrogen fueled cars will stall if no new reserves of Platinum are found. This is completely false.

Who cares if Plantium is low? Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe and can be pretty much made from anything.

Now do you see my point?

[escapee]

Yes i know, I know that H2 is abundant, but you cannot move something with just H2, you need a fuel cell to initiate the electrochemical reaction between H2 and O2, and platinum is an important component of fuel cell. Unfortunately, Chemists have not been able to find a suitable replacement for platinum since the begining of internal combustion engine .......

It seems to me that Platinum is the limiting factor for the H2 car revolution. That's what I'm concerned about.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by escapee

Yes i know, I know that H2 is abundant, but you cannot move something with just H2, you need a fuel cell to initiate the electrochemical reaction between H2 and O2, and platinum is an important component of fuel cell. Unfortunately, Chemists have not been able to find a suitable replacement for platinum since the begining of internal combustion engine .......

It seems to me that Platinum is the limiting factor for the H2 car revolution. That's what I'm concerned about.

Platinum is not a limiting factor, for the simple reason that there are many, many other ways of generating Hydrogen.

The generated Hydrogen can then be inserted into a fuel cell. I think thats the part you're not understanding, and which the general public is mislead by. It's all about continuing the lie that Energy is scarce.

Here's a fuel cell that you simply recharge with generated Hydrogen.

Below are just a few of the many ways Hydrogne can be generated.
(And these don't even touch on what Brutha posted about MIT using power from Solar to generated Hydrogen. Wind power can also be the source fuel to generate Hydrogen from water.)

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Home/Industry Hydrogen Catalytic Generators. Using chemical reactions and water to produce Hydrogen.

Boron

Hydrogen from Water using Boron - Chemical process allows for rapid liberation of hydrogen from water. The resulting boron oxide can then be regenerated to boron using renewable energy. Does require distribution infrastructure.

Purdue Organosilane
Purdue Announces Hydrogen from Water, Organic Material - Purdue researchers have developed a novel technique for producing hydrogen from water. It requires only water, a catalyst based on the metal rhenium (REE-nee-um) and an organic liquid called an organosilane, which can be stored and transported easily. (PESN; Aug. 31, 2005)

AllH2
AllH2 - The cell is a combination of magnesium, aluminium and stainless steel. It weighs .061 lbs. and has a lifetime shelf life. It's dimensions are 3" X 12" X 1/4". This cell when immersed in seawater releases hydrogen gas.

Safe Hydrogen LLC
Safe Hydrogen LLC is developing a hydrogen fuel that can be distributed using the existing gasoline infrastructure utilizing magnesium hydride slurry as a pumpable hydrogen fuel. Hydrogen is generated -only when needed - by mixing the slurry in a compact mixing device with water.

Hydrogen Power, Inc
Hydrogen Power, Inc Produces Hydrogen from Water - Hydrogen Now involves a chemical reaction between water, aluminum, and a catalyst to produce hydrogen on-demand. AlumiFuel powder, consisting of aluminum and catalyst can be easily transported and stored. The aluminum “splits�? the water freeing the hydrogen and creating a benign byproduct of aluminum hydroxide. (The Energy Blog; December 28, 2006)
Hydrogen Power Inc - Hydrogen Now™ combines aluminum, water and an environmentally-friendly catalyst to create a water split reaction.

AirGen Corporation
AirGen Corporation - AGC’s technology involves a chemical reaction created by the mixture of water, metals and nanosized colloidal metal catalysts to generate hydrogen and oxygen gas using a thermal and/or electric energy source. The low process temperature required can be supplied by renewable sources and the only consumable is water.

Global Hydrofuel Technologies
Global Hydrofuel Technolgies - has developed a method for producing hydrogen-on-demand from aluminum-assisted water split reaction, hydrogen suitable for any application and without the need for hydrogen storage or distribution. As well, the byproduct of the process can be recycled and reused in the process.

[Brutha]

Platinum is not a limiting factor, for the simple reason that there are many, many other ways of generating Hydrogen.

It's not about generating hydrogen but about building fuel cells that use hydrogen after it has been created.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by Brutha

It's not about generating hydrogen but about building fuel cells that use hydrogen after it has been created.

Gotcha, Brutha. I confess I didn't read the article just went by the quote. (Doin to many things at once.)

Apologies to both of you.

I think I'll research on this topic regarding possible alternative methods of construction of Fuel cells, sounds interesting.

[infinitethoughts]

Here's what I found.

Apparently platinum is not the only material Fuel cells can be made from. According to Wikipedia | Fuel Cell, nano iron powder can also be used and is highly efficient.
"It is produced by first refining the iron until it is exceptionally pure. Next it is wound into wire. This wire is then exposed to an electric explosion, separating the iron molecules. What results is an iron powder that must be measured at the nanoscale.[1]"
It seems, to produce the nano iron powder is extremely labor intensive, tho.

More:
UH Cullen College of Engineering | Finds alternative to Platinum
September 21, 2007

California Institute of Technology use Barium, Strontium, Cobalt, Iron and Oxygen as catalyst in Fuel Cells.

Also on the horizon is the company I've already mentioned before, Blacklight Power, which bypasses Fuel cells altogether. Seems this company has major players on their board of directors.

[escapee]

Putting Platinum and other depleting precious metals aside (eg: copper, silver ), another concern for Hydrogen economy is the EROEI ( Energy return on investment ).

The Oil Drum: Europe | Should EROEI be the most important criterion our society uses to decide how it meets its energy needs?

We have achieved a very high EROEI with crude oil under modern technology ( oil rig in super oil field at Saudi sucking million barrels of oil per day ). This has allowed the world economy to grow at a rate not seen before the oil industrial age. Output energy > > > Input energy = WEALTH

I wonder what is the EROEI of hydrogen production ?

If it takes 100 BTU of energy ( from coal, solar, wind, nuke, oil, high energy catalysts and etc ) to produce 60 BTU worth of hydrogen based energy. Do you think it's more practical to just have a plug in electric car (powered by battery, solar-battery & etc ) ? Would it be better to just use the original 100BTU electrical energy to power the vehicle directly instead of using it to create hydrogen ( energy carrier by itself ) with less output of BTU ?

Hydrogen economy: energy and economic black hole | Energy Bulletin

The laws of physics mean the hydrogen economy will always be an energy sink. Hydrogen’s properties require you to spend more energy to do the following than you get out of it later: overcome waters’ hydrogen-oxygen bond, to move heavy cars, to prevent leaks and brittle metals, to transport hydrogen to the destination. It doesn’t matter if all of the problems are solved, or how much money is spent. You will use more energy to create, store, and transport hydrogen than you will ever get out of it.

[Brutha]

Would it be better to just use the original 100BTU electrical energy to power the vehicle directly instead of using it to create hydrogen ( energy carrier by itself ) with less output of BTU ?

Don't forget that fuel cells are more energy efficent than electric motors.
You also lose energy by storing it in batteries.

Lastly batteries (the kind we use at the moment) need lithium and there not that much lithium available if you want to make all cars run on it.
Technology that need scarce materials have problems to scale be it platinum or lithium.

Maybe the air car could also be the winning techonology.
It's difficult to forcast the future, because we don't know what will be invented next.

[escapee]

I know that we are running peak on everything precious, so let just put aside the precious metal and focus solely on energy return.

I suspect when one does the math of net energy or EROI, Hydrogen could be the least energy efficiency and the most expensive way to replace oil and reduce GH gases.

Take Honda's new FCX Clarity. As the New York Times reported, "the cars cost several hundred thousand dollars each to produce," although Honda's president Takeo Fukui "said that should drop below $100,000 in less than a decade as production volumes increase."

The total power-plant-to-wheels efficiency with which a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle is likely to utilize low-carbon electricity is 20 to 25 percent--and the process requires purchasing several expensive pieces of hardware, including the electrolyzer and delivery infrastructure. The total efficiency of simply charging an onboard battery with the original low-carbon electricity, and then discharging the battery to run the electric motor in an electric car or plug-in, however, is 75 to 80 percent. That is, an electric car will travel three to four times farther on a kilowatt-hour of renewable or nuclear power than a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle will.

Technology Review: Blogs: Guest Blog: The Last Car You Would Ever Buy--Literally

Horse ridding lesson, anyone ? hehehe ..

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by escapee

I suspect when one does the math of net energy or EROI, Hydrogen could be the least energy efficiency and the most expensive way to replace oil and reduce GH gases.

Yeah that does seem to be the main problem.

Interestingly, I was surfing the web and found this.

PIPAC (1998): 45% Hydrogen | Daniel Dingel - Filipino Inventor

Independant testing of Dingels Electrolysis process.

[escapee]

Maybe there is still a glimmer of hope in the era of peak oil/gas, peak metals, peak minerals and peak weather. Let's keep our finger crossed .

MIT Builds Efficient Nanowire Ultracapacitor Car Storage to Replace Batteries - Popular Mechanics

Could the ultracapacitor replace lithium ion in hybrids and plug-in vehicles? Our senior automotive editor already thinks the science adds up, but it’s in a tiny box at a messy lab that the future of automotive efficiency is taking a surprising turn toward extending range and battery life.

RIA Novosti - Opinion & analysis - Fast reactors: Russia solves fuel and waste problem

Experts single out three aspects of the problem. First, nuclear power is a must for civilization, because there is nothing more effective or competitive invented thus far. Second, nuclear technology has no future without a closed fuel cycle. Without it, its days are numbered in this century.

The third element of the issue is fast neutron reactors. The nuclear industry is rapidly using up the scant natural resources of uranium and only fast neutron reactors can solve the fuel problem in the long term.

All countries developing nuclear power are aware that the future lies with fast reactors. France plans to finish its new project by 2040. The U.S. regrets that it froze its fast reactor program and is now trying to catch up.