I’ve Upped My Income; Now Up Yours

[coberst]

I’ve Upped My Income; Now Up Yours

I would say that a culture consists of the complex of ideas that a group of people hold dear. One can speak of the culture of a small group or of a very large group.

In the United States our culture is determined to a large extent by how we hold "these truths to be self-evident"; we are held together by ideas perhaps more than other societies. Next religion plays a great role, and in our case it is the mixture of Protestantism, Judaism, and Catholicism. Following this is our infatuation with capitalism; following that is our narcissistic view of our uniqueness and greatness.

Our culture is a general attitude toward our self and toward the world based upon these four ideologies.

To what powers have wo/men given allegiance in order to solve the paradoxes of life? To what or to whom have each of us given our uncritical allegiance? “Into what hero-system do I fit the expression of my talent”? What or whom has become my fetish-god?

It is possible for the adult to choose which power s/he will serve; however, to do so, when the choice is contrary to one that has resulted from the family and community clan, is an extremely unusual and heroic act. “The great tragedy of our lives is that the major question of our existence is never put by us--it is put by personal and social impulses for us.”

Very few of us discover our authentic talent—if it is ever found it is generally found accidentally through plain fate by us in our social milieu as we tap...tap...tap our blind way through life.

From a personal point of view our principal task is to somehow find our way out of the fate that we stumbled into and to grow out of our idol worship and fetishism and to expand our horizons, allegiances, and to drop our mere preoccupations. We need to free our self from the opinions of others.

“Since aggression is a reaction to frustration, by remaining tightly bound to the success of our social world we increase our aggressiveness, life invariable frustrates us.”

[b]Disinterested knowledge is the energy bunny. It generates the energy for exploration and for overcoming some of the inhibitions conscious reason places on the unconscious.

Studying disinterested knowledge is like taking off a month every year to visit a strange new land. Curiosity is reinvigorated and new meaning is created.[/b

Knowledge is like a jigsaw puzzle. We have created many puzzles in coping with reality and when we received a new piece (knowledge) that does not fit our present puzzles we forgetaboutit. However, if through disinterested knowledge we have created new puzzles we might find a place for this new fragment of knowledge to fit; thereby this fragment becomes our new knowledge.

Our mind is constantly working for us and when we do not give it a worthwhile project, i.e. a new puzzle, it will just waste away in boredom or worry.

In America one might best see this attitude manifested by this frame of mind “I’ve Upped My Income; Now Up Yours”; a manifestation of this attitude may be seen in concrete form by the fact that 45 million citizens are without proper health care.

Do you think that the attitude “I’ve Upped My Income, Now Up Yours” is an American frame of mind?

Quotes from “The Birth and Death of Meaning: An Interdisciplinary Perspective on the Problem of Man” by Ernest Becker

[Doku]

Good lord! How many places are you going to post this?

Science Forum - I’ve Upped My Income; Now Up Yours
I’ve Upped My Income; Now Up Yours - Freethought Forum
I’ve Upped My Income; Now Up Yours - Whistle Stopper Political Forums
I’ve Upped My Income; Now Up Yours - Student Doctor Network Forums

[Calimero]

Originally Posted by Doku

Good lord! How many places are you going to post this?

Science Forum - I’ve Upped My Income; Now Up Yours
I’ve Upped My Income; Now Up Yours - Freethought Forum
I’ve Upped My Income; Now Up Yours - Whistle Stopper Political Forums
I’ve Upped My Income; Now Up Yours - Student Doctor Network Forums

Do you always check out if a topic that appears on this forum was posted on other fora before?
Or are you just a member of the other fora as well so that you noticed the same topic appearing on each of them?

[Brutha]

Do you always check out if a topic that appears on this forum was posted on other fora before?

Maybe he just googled one of his quotes.

Or he has just a good sense for crossposted content.
I feel bad that I didn't see the pattern myself before.
That what's about, seeing patterns.

I'm so blind...

[schola]

Originally Posted by Calimero

Do you always check out if a topic that appears on this forum was posted on other fora before?
Or are you just a member of the other fora as well so that you noticed the same topic appearing on each of them?

Is "fora" the plural of forum? I thought it was forums. Or maybe fori? Hmmmm...

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by schola

Is "fora" the plural of forum? I thought it was forums. Or maybe fori? Hmmmm...

Fora and forums are both correct.

[Doku]

Originally Posted by Calimero

Do you always check out if a topic that appears on this forum was posted on other fora before?
Or are you just a member of the other fora as well so that you noticed the same topic appearing on each of them?

The title of the post mentions upping your income. Do you see money mentioned anywhere within the post? Do you see gaining friends mentioned? Do you see anything else within the post that suggests any form of "income" ?

The content of the post asks many questions, which they answer for themselves immediately following the questions. So, again, what is the point of this post? Go through the rest of the posts here. How many of them do not ultimately ask a question, even if it's just a "what do you think?" ?

This post just wreaked of used car salesman, and I wondered what he was selling... so I did as Brutha guessed, and googled the quote.

HAHAHA. Just googled it again. Now it appears on 20+ forums... The funny thing about that particular quote of his is that he even uses it in a post about comminusm: Primitive Communism: A mutual exchange of gifts - SciForums.com

Did some "fact checking". coberst has 174 posts, and started 80 threads. Of the 80 threads that he started here, 23 of them have zero responses. Of the 5 of those 23 that I checked, all 5 were spammed to more than a dozen other forums as well.

[Calimero]

Originally Posted by Doku

The title of the post mentions upping your income. Do you see money mentioned anywhere within the post? Do you see gaining friends mentioned? Do you see anything else within the post that suggests any form of "income" ?

The content of the post asks many questions, which they answer for themselves immediately following the questions. So, again, what is the point of this post? Go through the rest of the posts here. How many of them do not ultimately ask a question, even if it's just a "what do you think?" ?

This post just wreaked of used car salesman, and I wondered what he was selling... so I did as Brutha guessed, and googled the quote.

HAHAHA. Just googled it again. Now it appears on 20+ forums... The funny thing about that particular quote of his is that he even uses it in a post about comminusm: Primitive Communism: A mutual exchange of gifts - SciForums.com

Did some "fact checking". coberst has 174 posts, and started 80 threads. Of the 80 threads that he started here, 23 of them have zero responses. Of the 5 of those 23 that I checked, all 5 were spammed to more than a dozen other forums as well.

K thanks for explaining.
When I was reading the topic at first I had not the intention to post anything, as it doesn't invite the reader to give a reaction( like you explain). But like most people I just skip the topic and forget about it.
So it surprised me that someone seems to do research on this kind of posts.
I would never had that idea to check out this kinds of things.
But I think it is alright if someone wants to do it.

[Brutha]

As a result of this discussion we have now made our forum rules a bit more clear about this sort of behavior:

Avoid cross-posting - Don't cross-post the same message to multiple forums or to multiple websites. This will be treated by the moderators as spamming.

We won't have additional threads of this sort by coberst or others.

[outdoorsnewzealand]

Is the "up yours" in the title intended as a pun?

[Doku]

Originally Posted by Brutha

As a result of this discussion we have now made our forum rules a bit more clear about this sort of behavior:

We won't have additional threads of this sort by coberst or others.

I also think that the fact that he has logged on several times since I made the first reply, and he has not responded speaks volumes.

[Apollia]

Originally Posted by Doku

The title of the post mentions upping your income. Do you see money mentioned anywhere within the post? Do you see gaining friends mentioned? Do you see anything else within the post that suggests any form of "income" ?

I find it rather abstract and hard to follow, but, he mentions capitalism. I'm probably misunderstanding a lot of it but it looks to me like he might be criticizing how many people mindlessly value what their culture values (like capitalism, religion, etc.), and often fail to think for themselves, etc.

The content of the post asks many questions, which they answer for themselves immediately following the questions. So, again, what is the point of this post?

Well... I kind of enjoyed it. It's hard for me to decipher, but, that's part of the fun. And it got me thinking a little. I don't read any of the other forums he posted it to, so I never would have seen it if he hadn't posted it here.

Go through the rest of the posts here. How many of them do not ultimately ask a question, even if it's just a "what do you think?" ?

I noticed an unanswered question at the end:

coberst wrote:

Do you think that the attitude “I’ve Upped My Income, Now Up Yours” is an American frame of mind?

Doku wrote:

HAHAHA. Just googled it again. Now it appears on 20+ forums...

Maybe he just likes to hear feedback on his writing from a wide variety of different people with different backgrounds and interests? And, maybe I'm missing something obvious, but, I have to ask - what's wrong with that?

I also think that the fact that he has logged on several times since I made the first reply, and he has not responded speaks volumes.

Maybe he's just shy and prefers to avoid conflict.

Originally Posted by Brutha

Avoid cross-posting - Don't cross-post the same message to multiple forums or to multiple websites. This will be treated by the moderators as spamming.

Darn, I broke this rule before it even became a rule.

If I didn't like this forum as much as I do, I wouldn't even go to the trouble to point the following out - but, since I am so fond of this place, I will mention that I think this rule might not be good for the forum, because it might deter some people from posting.

I have several favorite forums in addition to this one. Each of my favorite forums (including this one) has different people whose opinions I respect and am interested in.

The problem is, I don't want to have to choose between sharing things with/getting the feedback of either exclusively the wonderful folks here, or exclusively the wonderful folks who like to hang out at various other forums I enjoy. I also don't want to have to go to the trouble of paraphrasing something I wrote just to make it unique enough to post here.

But I also don't want to be banned, which means in order to follow this rule, I will have to refrain from posting anything here which I might conceivably want to reuse elsewhere (such as my own website).

Another problem I see with this rule is, it increases the moderators' workload, since instead of only having to make sure that people are following the rules in their posts to this website, moderators will have to try to monitor what people post to other websites as well.

Also, what's to stop someone malicious from signing up at a different forum under the same user name as someone here, and copying and pasting one of their posts from here into a post at the other forum, and then reporting the seeming rule violation? The moderators here most likely wouldn't be moderators at the other forum, and would have no way to know if the impersonator at the other forum was the real person breaking the rules with a repost at another website, or a fake.

Just my two cents, I hope I haven't annoyed anyone. I mean well.

Best wishes,
Apollia

[Brutha]

Maybe he just likes to hear feedback on his writing from a wide variety of different people with different backgrounds and interests? And, maybe I'm missing something obvious, but, I have to ask - what's wrong with that?

Most of his thread advertise the books of a certain author named Lakoff and those books from Ernest Becker.
We life in a time were there are marketers all over the place and it's important to keep the discussion honest by keeping people who come here to sell certain books or ideas out.

Another problem I see with this rule is, it increases the moderators' workload, since instead of only having to make sure that people are following the rules in their posts to this website, moderators will have to try to monitor what people post to other websites as well.

It doesn't really.

You usually don't ban people because of a single fact, but because there is a certain pattern that those people follow.
The two most important pattern are internet marketing that isn't really interested into a two way intellectual exchange that a forum is about.
The other pattern is aggression and hostilenes against other forum members.

There no need to check every post for being posted on multiple forums. You check those posts that advertise something.
Rules are tools to moderate.

Unfortunatly you can't check directly whether someone is an internet marketer, who came here for marketing reasons. Moderators need to make decisions. Those decisions are a bit less arbitary when we post forum rules.

Naturally it would be easier to moderate if we had no rules and would just ban everyone that we don't like. A lot of people in this forum would probably disagree with that approach.

I have several favorite forums in addition to this one. Each of my favorite forums (including this one) has different people whose opinions I respect and am interested in.

If people have different opinions should you say different things to them? There are argument that just don't work on this forum because of the kind of intellectual climate that exist here, but that might work well on Randi's board.
Good writting is generally targeted at a certain audience.

Also, what's to stop someone malicious from signing up at a different forum under the same user name as someone here, and copying and pasting one of their posts from here into a post at the other forum, and then reporting the seeming rule violation?

We aren't robots that try to follow the rules mechanicly but human being who try to be smart about moderation. It's unlikely that something like this would happen.

[Lauxa]

I have to agree with Apollia that I feel uneasy about this rule. Sometimes there is a message that I want to post to a few forums and get feedback on from different groups of people. Or I want to post it here and on my blog.

I do think that coberst is abusing the forum by posting so many messages that are just quotes from other books and then cross-posting to many other forums. It's more because this is a pattern than because he did it one time. I just wish there was a way to phrase the rule that would make it a little less restrictive.

While I agree there are cross-postings that violate the spirit of the forum, I don't think it is true of all cross-postings. Since you clarified later that this mainly applies to posts where people are advertising something, maybe this could be reflected in the forum rules?

[Apollia]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Most of his thread advertise the books of a certain author named Lakoff and those books from Ernest Becker.

Ahh, I totally missed that. Thanks for pointing that out. Maybe it's naive of me, but if I had noticed this I would've assumed he was probably just a fan who enjoys frequently quoting his favorite authors, like anyone around here who likes to quote Steve, etc.

It's also pretty ironic if someone with a post seemingly criticizing capitalism is secretly trying to sell books. But, it's possible.

I still am doubtful that he's really a marketer, though - if that's what this is, these are probably the worst sales pitches I've ever seen, because I had no clue he was selling something, and the thought of buying those books never even crossed my mind.

We life in a time were there are marketers all over the place and it's important to keep the discussion honest by keeping people who come here to sell certain books or ideas out.

So, if coberst had a commercial website in his signature like many others here, it would be OK, but putting up free quotes from books without any indication that it's a sales pitch, and without providing any links to a website selling something, is wrong?

It doesn't really.

You usually don't ban people because of a single fact, but because there is a certain pattern that those people follow.

Good to hear it.

The two most important pattern are internet marketing that isn't really interested into a two way intellectual exchange that a forum is about.
The other pattern is aggression and hostilenes against other forum members.

There no need to check every post for being posted on multiple forums. You check those posts that advertise something.

So, any poster who repeatedly quotes from the same book or author is suspect?

Rules are tools to moderate.

Unfortunatly you can't check directly whether someone is an internet marketer, who came here for marketing reasons.

Well, as long as they make interesting posts, I don't mind some marketers here and there.

Moderators need to make decisions. Those decisions are a bit less arbitary when we post forum rules.

Naturally it would be easier to moderate if we had no rules and would just ban everyone that we don't like. A lot of people in this forum would probably disagree with that approach.

No doubt. I definitely appreciate what you do - it's a job I'd probably be too indecisive and soft to handle. I've been at unmoderated boards and they almost invariably turn very ugly. This place wouldn't be one of my favorite forums without you moderators.

If people have different opinions should you say different things to them? There are argument that just don't work on this forum because of the kind of intellectual climate that exist here, but that might work well on Randi's board.
Good writting is generally targeted at a certain audience.

True. But, there are things I'd be willing to say exactly the same way to numerous different audiences just to get a thread started, like a simple question like "What is the weirdest thing that ever happened to you?" That's a question I'd love to ask everyone I meet, even the Randi people.

That said - even with the few posts I've crossposted (which were just thread starters rather than a direct reply to anyone), I did end up modifying them a bit to suit each different audience and make sure it was definitely on topic. And, all of my direct replies to people are written just for them, not copied and pasted.

We aren't robots that try to follow the rules mechanicly but human being who try to be smart about moderation. It's unlikely that something like this would happen.

Glad to hear it. I believe it.


Lauxa wrote:

Sometimes there is a message that I want to post to a few forums and get feedback on from different groups of people. Or I want to post it here and on my blog.

(...)

I just wish there was a way to phrase the rule that would make it a little less restrictive.

While I agree there are cross-postings that violate the spirit of the forum, I don't think it is true of all cross-postings. Since you clarified later that this mainly applies to posts where people are advertising something, maybe this could be reflected in the forum rules?

Ditto, I agree.

Best wishes,
Apollia

[Brutha]

Well, as long as they make interesting posts, I don't mind some marketers here and there.

Even when those people aren't honest about what they are doing?
Here and there also leads to the question: When are there two much marketers? When 5% of the threads in the forum get created by marketers? 10%, 20% 50%?
Should you only fight marketers once they reach that level in the forum?

So, any poster who repeatedly quotes from the same book or author is suspect?

If someone repeatly links to the same blog, that enough for me to look at all the post of him/her and do things like google searches. The fact that coberst wrote about books leads to blindless on my part (and other mods) till, Doku pointed the cross pointing out.
As moderator I can do also other thing like checking the country where the person is from to get a better picture about the poster.

In general there are a variety of things that you can use as clue.

True. But, there are things I'd be willing to say exactly the same way to numerous different audiences just to get a thread started, like a simple question like "What is the weirdest thing that ever happened to you?"

If you started a thread like this the majority of the your content in that thread probably isn't cross posted.

I did end up modifying them a bit to suit each different audience and make sure it was definitely on topic.

Then you are probably okay.
You should also keep in mind that we usually sent people who have a PM on the first thing the do wrong and tell them to improve their behavior and don't immediately ban someone.

So, if coberst had a commercial website in his signature like many others here, it would be OK,

For one we do allow more stuff in the signature than in the actual thread.
But we also don't allow any signatures, from our forum rules:

Use reasonable signatures - Signatures that include links to free content-based sites are generally fine. However, in order to prevent forum abuse by internet marketers, the following types of signatures are unacceptable: visually obnoxious signatures; signature links that go directly to sales pages, lead generation pages, or email capture pages; or links to known scams or pyramid schemes. Signatures that ignore this rule will be censored or deleted, and continued abuse is cause for banning. If your intention is to use these forums primarily as a marketing outlet, you've come to the wrong place.

Judging the reason why someone decided to join the forum isn't a clear cut process but requires to get a picture of the person and deciding afterwards.

If you could have clear cut rules, we would have a computer program handle the moderation based on those rules. As human we can synthesis different information.

[Apollia]

Thanks for all the clarification. I'm glad to see you put so much thought into these things. I don't really have too much to add, so, I'll mostly just respond to your questions.

Even when those people aren't honest about what they are doing?

Well, I would prefer it if they would honestly state that they're trying to sell something. But, if they don't say so upfront, and if there's any reasonable doubt that they're really a marketer and not just someone who is a big fan of so-and-so author and their writing, my inclination would be to be lenient and just assume the best of them.

Meaning I might very well end up with a forum overrun with surreptitious marketers, which is probably one reason why I shouldn't begin my own forum.

Here and there also leads to the question: When are there two much marketers? When 5% of the threads in the forum get created by marketers? 10%, 20% 50%?
Should you only fight marketers once they reach that level in the forum?

I've never run a very busy forum, so, I've never faced a lot of these issues and don't really know what the answer might be. I think probably my approach would be to be more tolerant of interesting, creative spam, and less tolerant of boring spam.

Then you are probably okay.
You should also keep in mind that we usually sent people who have a PM on the first thing the do wrong and tell them to improve their behavior and don't immediately ban someone.

Thanks, glad to hear that. Thanks again for your replies. The last thing I have to say for now is, I still would feel more comfortable with a somehow reworded rule, along the lines of what Lauxa said.

Best wishes,
Apollia

[Keith]

IIRC, Steve's policy was that there's nothing wrong with promoting products on here, so long as they're relevant to the forum and/or discussion. It's only when they're not relevant that they become spam.

This seems on-topic to me.

[Brutha]

IIRC, Steve's policy was that there's nothing wrong with promoting products on here, so long as they're relevant to the forum and/or discussion. It's only when they're not relevant that they become spam.

No, that was the policy at the very start of the forum but it isn't anymore since more than a year (the PATH incident).

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Brutha

No, that was the policy at the very start of the forum but it isn't anymore since more than a year (the PATH incident).

What was "the PATH incident"?

[Brutha]

Originally Posted by Keith

What was "the PATH incident"?

PATH was a product that should somehow transform the life on a person, that was marked with a bit quantum mumbo jumbo. Thinking about PATHS, AMAZING RESULTS!! was one of the problematic threads.