Finally.....

[ProjectX]

A car that runs on water and not gas.

Water-fuel car unveiled in Japan | Video | Reuters.com

[escapee]

I posted this not too long ago. The car uses a high energy metal hydride to split the water. It's great for nations which rely on nuclear power heavily for electric generation.

[WanderingOak]

Why pay big bucks for a new vehicle that may or may not run on renewable resources? This gentleman here, modified an existing truck to run on wood scraps. It is not new technology either. Thousands of vehicles were converted to run on wood gas during the second world war.

[infinitethoughts]

Actually the system is "Hydrogen on Demand". Water is composed of Hydrogen and Oxygen. H2O -- 2 parts Hydrogen, one part Oxygen.

Thru spiral plates of Metal in a water container, low voltage is introduced and thru the process of Electrolysis, the 2 parts Hydrogen is released in gaseous form.

This gas is fed into the firing chamber and is what powers the pistons.
The exhaust that comes out is Oxygen. (The Japanese system is using a modified version of this basic idea.)

Stanley Meyer re-discovered this system, and was poisoned and died because of it.

It seems the time is right (escalating oil prices, information spread thru the internet about this system, discontent from the public, awareness of Gobal pollution from Fossil fuel engines, Non-American company producing a workable model, etc, etc, etc,) for this system to continue without too much repercussion from the Oil Industry.

They're still trying to vehemently discredit this technology, but things are changing.

Which is natures way of perserving itself.

[JSB]

Saying this car runs on water is like saying a normal car runs on oxygen; it's the truth, but only a partial truth.

A normal car needs oxygen to burn gasoline, and this car needs water to combine with metal hydrides to create hydrogen which is burned to power the engine. Technically, the "fuel" for this car is a metal hydride (as escapee already posted); that's where the energy used to generate the hydrogen gas comes from.

Since you won't find metal hydrides lying around, you need to produce them, and the process takes energy.

This is not a free lunch, not a replacement for oil, as you need to generate the energy somehow. It may, however, turn out to be a viable replacement for batteries or fuel cells. Preferably, power generation would involve solar or wind farms or 4th generation efficient nuclear power, and not coal fired power plants.

Is [power plant -> hydride production -> hydrogen production -> hydrogen powered internal combustion engine] energetically and economically efficient enough to compete with [power plant -> battery/fuel cell -> electric motor] or [algae/genetically modified bacteria -> biofuel -> internal combustion engine]?

That remains to be seen.

[infinitethoughts]

JSB.

Metal hydrides is the incorrect term for this system. Metal hydrides are metals that stores Hydrogen.

If you take away the word "metal", then you have Hydride. Hydride is the name given to the negative ion of hydrogen.

The fuel is the released Hydrogen (hydride) as I previously explained.

Here's a video showing the simple process of "Hydrogen on Demand" using simple metal, water, and low voltage.

YouTube - Hydrogen Generator HHO Fuel Cell Brown Gas

[infinitethoughts]

Here's a Newscast showing the interesting properties of the flame generated from "Hydrogen on Demand."

Welding torch powered by water only.

[schola]

As far as I can tell, all these technologies need electricity. So your "water powered" vehicle is only as clean as the power plant that you are plugged into right? Most power plants in the US are oil powered I believe.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by schola

As far as I can tell, all these technologies need electricity. So your "water powered" vehicle is only as clean as the power plant that you are plugged into right? Most power plants in the US are oil powered I believe.

In answer to your question.

Here's a video showing a homemade Hydrogen generator hooked up to two car batteries and the very powerful result that comes out.

YouTube - 02 - Hydrogen Booster Test - The BIG Bang

[infinitethoughts]

Here's Another Newscast on Energy purely from water:

YouTube - NBC WAVE TV 3 News Video Aquygen HHO Water Fuel Breakthrough

Hydrogen Technology Applications, Inc.
Makers of Aquygen™, a combustible gas made from water that is a safe, cost-effective, and an environmentally-friendly alternative to traditional industrial gases.

Here's a Welder that you can buy that runs only on water:
H2O 1500 Aquygen™ Gas Generator : Hydrogen Technology Applications

This stuff is real people.

[schola]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

In answer to your question.

Here's a video showing a homemade Hydrogen generator hooked up to two car batteries and the very powerful result that comes out.

YouTube - 02 - Hydrogen Booster Test - The BIG Bang

So what happens when the car batteries lose their charge? Are you going to throw them away and buy new ones or recharge them?

This is not the same as a traditional car engine. The battery in your car keeps its charge because of the extra energy produced by the gas powered engine.

In electrolysis, there is no excess energy produced by the production of hydrogen. In fact, there is an energy loss.

[JSB]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

JSB.

Metal hydrides is the incorrect term for this system. Metal hydrides are metals that stores Hydrogen.

If you take away the word "metal", then you have Hydride. Hydride is the name given to the negative ion of hydrogen.

The fuel is the released Hydrogen (hydride) as I previously explained.

Here's a video showing the simple process of "Hydrogen on Demand" using simple metal, water, and low voltage.

YouTube - Hydrogen Generator HHO Fuel Cell Brown Gas

Yes, the fuel for the engine is hydrogen, but the energy to create the hydrogen from water comes from the chemical reaction between the water and the metal hydride. In the other case you mention, the energy to separate the water into hydrogen and oxygen comes from your car battery.

These things work. They successfully create hydrogen gas with which you can run a combustion engine.

What they do not create is energy. The energy comes from somewhere else (e.g. the high energy chemical bonds in the reagent or the energy used to recharge you battery). Hydrogen is an energy storage medium, not an energy source.

These may turn out to be useful cars, but we will still need to get the energy to generate the hydrogen in the first place.

Using a battery to generate Brown's gas to power a combustion engine to run a car would be less efficient than using the same battery to power an electric motor to run a car because electric motors are more energy efficient than combustion engines.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by schola

So what happens when the car batteries lose their charge? Are you going to throw them away and buy new ones or recharge them?

In the case of using this fuel in a car, of course you recharge them. With the alternator in the car, which is being driven by the water based Hydrogen generator.

[infinitethoughts]

Here's another company:

Browns Gas.Com, the independent website on Browns Gas - HHO Gas - Water as Fuel
Environmentally friendly renewable energy with many (even new) applications. Made of water and electricity. For welding, cutting, automotive fuel, flamepolishing, plant grow, heating, health etc. Is it new?.........No certainly not. But Brown's Gas technology has been much improved and made practical now.

Automotive section:
Brown's Gas HHO Fuel Savers

No prices listed, tho.

[schola]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

In the case of using this fuel in a car, of course you recharge them. With the alternator in the car, which is being driven by the water based Hydrogen generator.

Where is this extra energy coming from? You just burned it off to make the car move. An alternator just converts some of the extra mechanical energy into electricity.

Ultimately you are powering the vehicle with electricity. The hydrogen is just a medium of storage until it is burned. It is not the fuel in this situation. Ultimately all the energy in the system comes from the car battery. So when you car battery is dead, that is akin to "running out of gas."

This is different than an internal combustion engine, where the energy comes from the gas in your tank, not from the battery. Your battery is just there to get the combustion process started. You don't even really need a battery in an internal combustion engine. Ever seen black and white videos of those old hand cranked cars back in the day?

That video you posted is just basic chemistry. My chem teacher showed us the same thing in 9th grade. It takes energy to break the bonds of the water molecule. The amount of energy bounded up in the hydrogen that is produced from the electrolysis process can be no greater than the energy in the electricity you used.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by JSB

These may turn out to be useful cars, but we will still need to get the energy to generate the hydrogen in the first place.

Which is the car battery. The HHO generator runs the engine, (the voltage it needs is small) the engine runs the alternator, which then recharges the batteries.

[JSB]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

In the case of using this fuel in a car, of course you recharge them. With the alternator in the car, which is being driven by the water based Hydrogen generator.

In that case, you'd be getting more energy out of the system than you'd be putting into it, creating, in effect a perpetual motion machine, i.e. battery generates enough power to create the gas to run the car and recharge itself at the same time. If the battery capacity is X units of energy, you are using those X units to create the hydrogen (Y units of energy), and recharge the battery back to capacity (another X units), meaning X=Y+X. This only works if Y=0 or you can't recharge the battery back to capacity.

I'm not trying to be difficult; I'd LOVE to see a car that could do this, but this is not an energy generator --- it takes as much or more energy going into the system from outside as the system uses.

It works, it produces the hydrogen to run the car, but it takes energy from outside to do so (not necessarily a bad thing --- we could have Brown's Gas cars recharged by solar panels on the roof of the garage, with no gasoline involved).

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by schola

In electrolysis, there is no excess energy produced by the production of hydrogen. In fact, there is an energy loss.

By the way you've worded it, I see you're not getting it.

Electrolysis does not produce the energy that is used. Electrolysis is the method to seperate the Hydrogen from the water. The resulting Hydrogen is the energy.

You see what I'm saying?

[JSB]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

By the way you've worded it, I see you're not getting it.

Electrolysis does not produce the energy that is used. Electrolysis is the method to seperate the Hydrogen from the water. The resulting Hydrogen is the energy.

You see what I'm saying?

Yes, but it takes more energy to run the electrolysis than you get out of the hydrogen produced by the electrolysis. You don't need high voltage to run the electrolysis, but voltage and energy are two different things.

[infinitethoughts]

Ok.....You guys seriously don't get it.

I'll answer you both at the same time.

JSB
No it's not perpertual motion. It's simply using low voltage to seperate Hydrogen from water. This Hydrogen is then burned. That's it. Nothing more.

--
SCHOLA.
This is exactly like an internal combustion engine. Instead of exploding Gasoline, you're exploding Hydrogen.
That's it. Nothing more.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by JSB

Yes, but it takes more energy to run the electrolysis than you get out of the hydrogen produced by the electrolysis. You don't need high voltage to run the electrolysis, but voltage and energy are two different things.

The HHO generators bubble out Hydrogen gas depending on how much water you have in the container. This gas is sucked into the manifold by vacuum. A quart lasts quite a while, with very low voltage.

The water disappears, you add more water.

[schola]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

By the way you've worded it, I see you're not getting it.

Electrolysis does not produce the energy that is used. Electrolysis is the method to seperate the Hydrogen from the water. The resulting Hydrogen is the energy.

You see what I'm saying?

Electrolysis transfers energy. This is basic high school chemistry stuff. Both sides of the equation have to balance. Whenever chemical bonds are created or broken, energy is either released or absorbed.

The hydrogen isn't the energy. It is matter. The energy results when the reaction occurs; when you burn the hydrogen you are turning some of that matter into energy.

When you burn hydrogen, what do you get? Some amount of energy in the form of light, heat, electricity, etc and WATER. You are back where you started! Burning hydrogen is the other half of the equation. In order to split that water up again, you have to put the same amount of energy that was lost back into the reaction. It has to balance.

2H2 + O2 → 2H2O + heat

When you are using some of that energy to make the car move, it is gone from the equation. Poof. Disappears. It can't return to the battery because it was used up. You have less energy in your system now. In your vehicle, the energy that returns to the battery in the form of electricity is inversely proportional to the energy that you used up to power the car.

[infinitethoughts]

Hybrid Hydrogen Oxygen System (HHOS) Tested

In 100-mile open road tests on October 21, 2003, the HHOS Electrolyzer installed with a heavy duty alternator and no additional power supply increased gas mileage in the prototype test vehicle from 33.0 miles per gallon to 40.56 miles per gallon without increasing water or
oil temperatures or decreasing battery voltage.

Continues on here.
http://hytechapps.com/aquygen/hhos_test_20031021.pdf

This is the Hydrogen Oxygen System test results in conjunction with using gas.

[schola]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

The HHO generators bubble out Hydrogen gas depending on how much water you have in the container. This gas is sucked into the manifold by vacuum. A quart lasts quite a while, with very low voltage.

The water disappears, you add more water.

The water doesn't disappear. If you burn the hydrogen you will end up with the same amount of water you started with. Combustion is oxidation. Combustion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia