Three Cheers for $4 Gasoline

[coollikeme]

on other countries for oil in anyway shape or form. This has nothing to do with supply and demand. Let me make this simple (WE WOULD NOT BE IN Iraq TODAY IF WE DRILLED ARE OWN OIL). I don't care if the oil companies make money from oil, because if they don't someone else will. I would rather have the oil companies control the oil before the Government. Government control of anything is dangerous. Let the free markets roll, to any form of Government say HELL NO!!!!!!

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by coollikeme

Government control of anything is dangerous. Let the free markets roll, to any form of Government say HELL NO!!!!!!

Enjoy the rising prices then..

While we're at it, let's get the government out of regulating toxic waste too. I am tired of clean drinking water. And no more labels on food either. Those are overrated.

I want to trust private companies. They have nothing to gain from lying! Oh wait..

[coollikeme]

Any day!!! Most Governments find a way to steal your money anyway. Ask health care and social security programs. How is that going, that was many years of Government mess ups.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by coollikeme

Ask health care and social security programs.

Watch Sicko to see how things run in countries that do have national systems -- it's completely different. Human life actually matters, for one thing.

Private industry has a vested interest in creating human slavery. There's profit to be made in treating people like capital. Whether it's debt slavery, sweat shop slavery, creating a problem only to offer a costly solution, whatever. There are a million ways to take advantage of people to make a profit. And private industry does just that; when it's unregulated, it's known for taking massive, destructive advantage of people.

Saying we shouldn't have our government regulate industry is laughable. The failures you cite are because our government policy has been BOUGHT by the private corporations. The issue is not that the government is involved, but that they are not involved objectively. Lobbyists write policy and it shows.

Again, corporations are not out to look for people's best interests or wellness -- they are only out for their own bottom line. When it comes down to who actually ends up with the money it's only a tiny fraction of society. A properly regulated and accountable free market is one thing, but that is not at all what we are seeing today.

I don't know if you saw my statistic earlier about Morgan Stanley owning the majority of heating oil in New England, and intentionally inflating the prices on it. How is that in anyone's best interest except perhaps the main shareholders of Morgan Stanley? Answer is, it's not. It's not in anyone's best interest for that situation to take place. But people are so ignorant that they will accept this total travesty of economic policy, and then most are so guilt ridden that they will proceed to beat themselves up over not having enough money to pay their gas bill. Meanwhile, Morgan Stanley is laughing all the way to the bank, while average citizens are stuck choosing between baby formula and heating oil. Oh, wait Morgan Stanley is a bank anyway, so they can then create their own level two and level three derivatives off of the oil futures they monopolized. This is also only allowed because government policy lets it happen. It doesn't have to be that way.

To say that the private companies should own all the natural resources in our country, and then distribute them only to those who they feel deserve them; that's not freedom, it's fascism. To bill that as somehow being a good thing for our health and wellness as a country overall is ridiculous. The corporations would just turn us all into wage slaves for their benefit -- why should we live that way?

You end up with ridiculous occurrences. One company getting paid to demolish a bridge, and another to rebuild it. Who benefits there? Only the owners of the companies who do the demolition and the rebuilding. Meanwhile 99% of the population struggles to get by, because there is no health care, no day care, all the tax money is being spent on war or on blowing up bridges and then rebuilding them, whatever. Not on improving life for the average citizen.

[coollikeme]

there so called rules and regulation that help inflate health care prices. I agree with you on the lobbyist part, they are dangerous also. It is up to the Government to fix that problem, but they don't. That is why it is hard for me to trust the Government, they are just as bad as the lobbyist!!

[tobyhede]

Drilling is a temporary measure.

The US uses about 20 MILLION barrels of oil a day.

In May of 2008 the Energy Information Administration released the following report:

"The opening of the ANWR 1002 Area to oil and natural gas development is projected to increase domestic crude oil production starting in 2018. In the mean ANWR oil resource case, additional oil production resulting from the opening of ANWR reaches 780,000 barrels per day in 2027 and then declines to 710,000 barrels per day in 2030. In the low and high ANWR oil resource cases, additional oil production resulting from the opening of ANWR peaks in 2028 at 510,000 and 1.45 million barrels per day, respectively. Between 2018 and 2030, cumulative additional oil production is 2.6 billion barrels for the mean oil resource case, while the low and high resource cases project a cumulative additional oil production of 1.9 and 4.3 billion barrels, respectively." [23]),

[JSB]

I shall foolishly stick my nose in the government regulation vs. private industry discussion going on here.

The way I see it, the strength of government regulation is that the government is theoretically answerable to its citizens on election day, and has an incentive to work in their best interests (lobbyists & corruption notwithstanding). The downside of government regulation is monolithic, arrogant, inefficient bureaucracies that work primarily to perpetuate their own existence.

The strength of private industry is creativity, adaptability, and efficiency brought about by competition. The downside of private industry is that companies are answerable only to their shareholders --- there are plenty of companies that would gladly make children's pajamas extra flammable if it would make them an extra dollar or two.

Communism is the bloated inefficiency of government with none of the accountability, and cartels or monopolies are the heartlessness of private industry without the advantages of efficiency or innovation.

Each is best kept to its own sphere. In most industries, the free market works best --- efficiency and innovation rules. In some spheres, accountability and loyalty to the greater good of society is more important than mere efficiency --- i.e. there is no reason law enforcement, prisons, or the military should ever be privatized.

[JFKDemocrat]

THIS IS NOT A SUPPLY SIDE ISSUE. There is plenty of oil supply side. So please stop going on about drilling. Drilling more will just give the same speculators a LARGER market to corner and BIGGER PROFITS to reap from doing so. It will NOT lower costs in the short term, and it might not lower them at all.

Dan.Linhan

I'm sorry, we are not entitled to our opinions? Calm down.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by JFKDemocrat

I'm sorry, we are not entitled to our opinions? Calm down.

This isn't even really my battle. I walk to work every day in the most affluent county in the nation. I don't even use air conditioning or heating due to the weather here -- my apartment stays a nice temperature on its own year round. My total energy bill is around thirty-five dollars a month regardless of the season. Practically nothing.

Before I moved here though, I lived in Ohio. I know firsthand what it's like to get nailed with a $300 electric bill that you totally can't pay right in the middle of winter. And I know what it's like to have to drive thirty-five miles to work and then thirty-five more miles home because there are no good jobs in the suburbs. And that was before all this oil crisis crap was happening. What do you think is going to happen across the Midwest if gas prices are still like this come Winter?

Do you think I want the entire Midwest to turn into one big Detroit?

How much do YOU spend on oil in an average week? Because I guarantee it's more than the nine dollars that I do.

That means it's UP TO YOU to stand up for yourself against these businesses that are hoarding and monopolizing your natural resources. But instead you're saying that I need to calm down? Good luck solving your problems that way.

[ogrekilleat]

Originally Posted by coollikeme

The private sector will do a better job. Any day!!!

I seriously hope someone paid you to say that.

The government's not perfect, the private sector's not perfect. They both have advantages to gain from fleecing individuals.

You keep saying that you don't want to depend on other countries. So you'd rather depend on huge, faceless companies that keep getting bigger and richer and with worse and worse customer service? It would be one thing if competition was enough to keep these companies honest and helpful, but it's obviously not, as we're seeing.

This is why I don't understand why you can't get behind what people are saying about how high gas prices might drive stronger local economies. We all have to depend on other people, so wouldn't you rather depend on people you know? People who care about your health and the health of your community?

So tell me, why would you rather depend on a private sector that has shown time and time again that the companies that make it up will speedily do things to hurt you if it increases their profit?

[JFKDemocrat]

I want to go forward in time, not backwards. As an evolved organism on this planet I deserve to be in an environment that is at room temperature and I shouldn't be expected to walk to work (even though walking is healthy). I shouldn't have to think twice about it. Living in a box will not solve the problems, technology will.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by JFKDemocrat

I want to go forward in time, not backwards. As an evolved organism on this planet I deserve to be in an environment that is at room temperature and I shouldn't be expected to walk to work (even though walking is healthy). I shouldn't have to think twice about it. Living in a box will not solve the problems, technology will.

I didn't say you should walk to work. I said that you should stand up for yourself against monopolistic businesses. Have you researched the Enron Loophole? Have you contacted your representatives?

Re: technology -- I already posted directions on how to own an almost fully electric plug-in vehicle for less than $25k. But that's not going to help the home heating problems.

[SomeRandomGuy]

ogrekilleat makes a very good point. We are in the situation we are in with gas prices because of the private sector. A corporation's goal is to make as much money as possible. It is our responsibility as consumers to determine what we are willing to pay for goods and services. Oil companies are having record profits because consumers are willing to pay the prices being charged. Until we make lifestyle changes that reduce the amount of oil we are using (therefore decreasing demand), why would the oil companies lower the price of gas? If a larger profit can be made at $6 per gallon than $4 per gallon (meaning the overall gas usage does not decrease more than 33% then I fully expect the oil companies to do whatever is possible to get gas prices to $6 per gallon (I realize this is an over-simplistic example, not taking into account taxes, etc.). Relying on the private sector to govern prices is great in theory, as long as consumers are willing to dictate the price they are willing to pay and force their will upon those providing the goods and services.

[JFKDemocrat]

The oil companies make about 3 percent profit off of gas. Your local, state, and federal government make several times that. There are a whole host of businesses that make way more profit than 3 percent. Software companies make over 20 percent profit. Star bucks makes over 10 percent. I could go on and on. Why don't you call your congressman to ask why you are paying so much profit to Microsoft? It's simple economics of supply and demand really. China and India are consuming like never before. China has 5 times the population.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by JFKDemocrat

The oil companies make about 3 percent profit off of gas. Your local, state, and federal government make several times that. There are a whole host of businesses that make way more profit than 3 percent. Software companies make over 20 percent profit. Star bucks makes over 10 percent. I could go on and on. Why don't you call your congressman to ask why you are paying so much profit to Microsoft? It's simple economics of supply and demand really. China and India are consuming like never before. China has 5 times the population.

Profit is a manufactured statistic. Take the company I work for, as an example. Because we work with all government contracts, we quadrupled our rates a few years ago, then we started offering 20% discounts to "preferred clients" who buy more than one product from us.

So does getting 20% off mean you are getting a good deal? Nope, the price is still 320% inflated. But as far as any of the clients are concerned they got 20% off.

Especially when you are dealing with futures markets and speculation, profit calculations are not as cut and dry as you would think. Most of a companies revenue can just be "reinvested" back into the company, or into shell corporations -- and that all draws from the bottom line.

[JFKDemocrat]

Have you ever thought that the high gas prices are due to a weakening dollar? $1000 an ounce gold should be an indicator to you that the current gas prices are accurate. If the oil companies were inflating their prices and lying to us that it is a supply/demand issue, then gold prices wouldn't have skyrocketed like they have. Right?

[escapee]

How much do YOU spend on oil in an average week? Because I guarantee it's more than the nine dollars that I do.

That means it's UP TO YOU to stand up for yourself against these businesses that are hoarding and monopolizing your natural resources. But instead you're saying that I need to calm down? Good luck solving your problems that way.

That's the wonder of "price" in a capitalist society, when the price is high, everybody begin to conserve and start looking for alternatives. That may not be the case when government begins to subsidize, regulate and distort the price. Don't you all want to drive a car that produces no greenhouse gases and toxic fumes ASAP ? with oil going back to 20 bucks/barrel caused by government price distortion. We won't be seeing electric or air car anytime soon with severe climate change around the corner.

This whole issue is really simple. YOU ARE BEING RIPPED OFF BY BIG BUSINESS. Speculators now account for about 70% of all benchmark crude trading. Banks are driving up the prices because they can -- they know demand won't go down

If the banks and "speculators" are restricted in US, they will go elsewhere to place their bid for oil. with that, US will gradually lose the pricing power on oil which is extremely detrimental to the dollar as world reserve currency. If the entire world begins to restrict the "speculative" activities on oil. The excessive paper money and digital fund from banks and "speculators" all over the world will spill over to food, consumer goods & metal based commodities, causing the same kind of inflation. I can only think of two practical ways to stop this inflation, first is the replacement of oil with alternative, second is to trigger a global financial meltdown (money supply )with double digit interest rate hike, but Bernanke is no Paul Volcker at least for now (election year).

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by JFKDemocrat

Have you ever thought that the high gas prices are due to a weakening dollar? $1000 an ounce gold should be an indicator to you that the current gas prices are accurate. If the oil companies were inflating their prices and lying to us that it is a supply/demand issue, then gold prices wouldn't have skyrocketed like they have. Right?

What makes you think the Gold market isn't cornered by the same private investment groups?

In theory, sharply falling demand, a rapidly growing gold-recycling sector, and steady mine supplies of gold should stabilize the metal's price. Indeed, Virtual Metals is predicting a 422-tonne surplus in the world's gold market this year, after two successive years in which demand outweighed supply. And yet gold is trading as if demand is rising rapidly and production is falling. The contract for delivery of gold in October is trading at $614.4 an ounce—even more than the current market price.

What gives? Essentially: speculation. While consumers are reacting to expensive gold by demanding less of it and recycling more, investors are reacting by bidding up the price further. And just as has been the case with every asset class over the past decade—real estate, Brazilian stocks—strong performance attracts a tidal wave of hot money. Indeed, Virtual Metals concludes that the price of gold is "being supported by the sheer wall of investment money moving into commodities.

Why gold prices are so high. - By Daniel Gross - Slate Magazine

[escapee]

Originally Posted by JFKDemocrat

Have you ever thought that the high gas prices are due to a weakening dollar? $1000 an ounce gold should be an indicator to you that the current gas prices are accurate. If the oil companies were inflating their prices and lying to us that it is a supply/demand issue, then gold prices wouldn't have skyrocketed like they have. Right?

Yeah, people cheer when the price of real estate and stock market go to the moon. When the easy money begins to shift to commodities and consumer goods. Ohhh, it's all speculation and evil doing by the private firms and capitalists. Why don't we point the finger at the monetary policy (easy credit) set by ( government agency )former fed chairman - Alan greenspan ? Why don't we ever question the legitimacy of paper or digital currency created out of thin air to fund massive deficit spending by government (eg: buy oil from arab with paper dollar, fund war and military bases with paper dollar and etc ) ?

Amazon.co.uk: Greenspan's Bubbles: The Age of Ignorance at the Federal Reserve: William Fleckenstein, Fred Sheehan: Books

Amazon.co.uk: Bubble Man: Alan Greenspan and the Missing 7 Trillion Dollars: P Hartcher: Books

[JFKDemocrat]

Michael Savage on energy (this was back in 2002). What he says here makes a lot of since. He doesn't like Bush (smart man), but he also doesn't buy into the left wing bullcrap.

YouTube - Michael Savage - 2002 Classic!

[konmai]

Originally Posted by Angela

Plus, thanks to all the walking, etc., I am down to a junior's size 7 for the first time since high school. High gas prices make you thin! Too, my food choices are much more local. When it gets dark, it gets dark in my apartment -- the day is not artificially stretched out around here (unless there's a new episode of Law & Order Criminal Intent on tv.)

Maybe it's not entirely the high price of gas, but it feels good and right to be playing these games and so I don't mind.

i have been walking a lot as well. how come i haven't dropped some sizes! i've been enjoying the game as well. without it, i don't think i'd be as motivated to start a garden and start biking. right now, i'm working on my strength to do all those things.

the tv is necessary for Cold Case though.

[infinitethoughts]

Here's one technology thats available now that takes you of the gas grid.

Hydrogen Technology Applications, Inc.
Makers of Aquygen™, a combustible gas made from water that is a safe, cost-effective, and an environmentally-friendly alternative to traditional industrial gases.

Here's a Welder that you can buy that runs only on water:
H2O 1500 Aquygen™ Gas Generator : Hydrogen Technology Applications

Applications for cars as booster kits are available on the net, but I haven't checked the various Companies reliability.

[schola]

Originally Posted by coollikeme

on other countries for oil in anyway shape or form. This has nothing to do with supply and demand. Let me make this simple (WE WOULD NOT BE IN Iraq TODAY IF WE DRILLED ARE OWN OIL). I don't care if the oil companies make money from oil, because if they don't someone else will. I would rather have the oil companies control the oil before the Government. Government control of anything is dangerous. Let the free markets roll, to any form of Government say HELL NO!!!!!!

We do drill our own oil. Most of our oil, like 60-80%, comes from North America. But oil is a commodity traded in the world market. So it doesn't really matter where it comes from. A barrel of oil from the US costs as much as a barrel of oil from Saudi Arabia.

[infinitethoughts]

Oil will be a thing of the past.

[coollikeme]

if we wanted to. So why not!! We can also use are own domestic oil to make money selling it to other countries. And turn the tables on the people that are holding us hostage. Their can be a lot of jobs for people in the USA, ask Alaskans. Lets put it this way, it is not working right now, and it won't get any better if we don't change something. It is time for us (The US) to be personally responsible, and take care of are-selves.

[LarryC]

You (original poster) make a good point, which seems to have gotten sidetracked in this thread. The only way people are going to make serious lifestyle changes is if they are compelled to for economic reasons. The present energy paradigm is not sustainable, especially when you factor in other high population countries like China and India. As the documentary, The End of Suburbia points out, there is a need to rethink the American cultural landscape so it doesn' t depend on personal cars to get everywhere.

[TooTicki]

Just thought i´d let you guys know that the price of gas here (sweden) is about 12 SEK/liter = $ 7.50/Gallon

[Brutha]

if we wanted to. So why not!! We can also use are own domestic oil to make money selling it to other countries.

No, there isn't enough oil in the ground to do that in the us.

[Dan.Linehan]

Or, maybe it's not the speculators. Here's another take on it.

Countdown to $200 oil

[escapee]

The article deals specifically with the supply and demand of the goods. Once you take into account the rapid expansion of money supply (without expansion of money, there is no economic growth ). The oil price can only go one way ..... UP

To add insult to injury, we now have a situation whereby the excess of money supply can't find a value added avenue in bond, equity & housing market. So, the money has to concentrate on the commodities for the time being. Eventually, when the Fed and central banks all over the world decide to inflate the money supply further to prevent another round of banks collapse. The money will find their way in every aspect of our life.



German Weimar Republic in the early 1920s and the U.S.

German Weimar


1919-1921

1. Bank interest rate - still 5%
2. German stock market at 97 in January 1919, 166 in January 1920, 278 in January 1921 and 731 in December 1921.
3. The general price level has doubled since 1914.
4. Most of the rest of the world allows their money supplies to contract as a "war withdrawal" effect, and goes into recession or depression (general prices fell 16% in the U.S. in 1921). Germany keeps creating or printing money, and the government deficits continue to increase.
5. Newspapers and many financial folk are very confused by the continual price increases. Its blamed somewhat on the Versailles Treaty and France but mostly on speculators and "foreigners" inside Germany (an ominous sign and similarity to what's ahead with Hitler and the Holocaust, etc.).


1923

1. Bank interest rate rises to 19% in January, 30% in April, 90% in September.
2. German stock market at 21,400 in January and rose to 26,890,000 in November at the peak.
3. Crime, malnutrition, suicides etc. have reached unusually high levels.
4. Money velocity - 5-12
5. Many foreign companies have large foreign currency gains, due to the falling value of the mark.


November 14, 1923

1. German mark worthless (4 Trillion marks per dollar)
2. Bank interest rate over 900%
3. German stock market at 26,890,000 at the peak
4. The value of the Daimler company was about $980 million and a car cost $3 million - the whole company was only worth 327 of its cars.


November 15, 1923 & beyond

1. German Central Bank issues the Rentenmark, a new currency, backed by various property in Germany.
2. Old marks are converted to Rentenmarks at a ratio of one billion marks = 1 Rentenmark.
3. Many governments have enacted extremely stiff wage and price controls in the wake of hyperinflation, which is a form of forced savings: goods become unavailable, and hence people hoard cash.
4. No episode of hyperinflation in history has been ended by the use of wage and price controls alone, though they have sometimes been part of the mix of policies used to halt hyperinflation.