Are Americans Dumb?

[Calimero]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

30% of Americans don't know what the Holocaust was.
51% do not know that the US was the first country to use a nuclear weapon.

Well even if 100% would know about that you can't change history knowing that fact.

And what the future concerns.
In Europe more people seem to know what is called in history "Holocaust"
In Israel surely 100% of the Israelis know what is called in history books "Holocaust".

But even with more people knowing what the holocaust is or was you won't prevent Europe or Israel form repeating the same in the future.

One Being able to give a definition what happened in the past, is not a guarantee that one will recognize when similar patterns are in develop in the present that might lead to a similar cruelty in the future.

You need to know more than just give the definition of the Holocaust if you want genocide being something that belongs to the past of humanity from now on.

[infinitethoughts]

The real question is why are a lot of americans "dumb"?

• The education system is seriously dumbed down. A U.S. 12th grade equates to almost the 8th or 9th grade in Germany. (I know, I've been through it coming here from Germany in 72')
  
  Bush's, No child left behind, equates to lowering the Education system across the board, to leave "no child left behind".

• U.S. Movies (not all) are dumbed down.

• The Media/Entertainment is dumbed down.

• And the biggie, Mass Media News is seriously dumbed down.

[Lucas]

I don't think Americans are any more idiotic than any other nation. On a one on one level, I think everyone has some knowledge that others don't and what I think is idiotic is when people don't see that. I consider myself an educated, intelligent individual, but part of that is knowing that I don't know everything. My grndmother is pretty much a black hating hillbilly, but the woman could make a plant grow in a granite mine. I have trouble keeping a cactus alive. So there is knowledge and experience there that I don't have, even though she is practically afraid of my laptop.

People tend to specialize their knowledge as well...so because someone seems dumb on camera, doesn't mean they don't know anything. I knew a guy who couldn't read, and didn't know anything about life outside of his town, but he could fix pretty much anything mechanical, and could build buildings.

Some of these people do seem a little dumber than they should be, and in fact, I think a smart person would be inquiring how many people they had to interview to find the ones answering stuff wrong. I see camera edits, and any time film is cut, bias is created. I would like to see the whole reel. Maybe the guy in the blue shirt got half the questions right, or even corrected himself after the fact.

What they don't show is more telling than what they do.

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

The real question is why are a lot of americans "dumb"?

• The education system is seriously dumbed down. A U.S. 12th grade equates to almost the 8th or 9th grade in Germany. (I know, I've been through it coming here from Germany in 72')
  
  Bush's, No child left behind, equates to lowering the Education system across the board, to leave "no child left behind".

• U.S. Movies (not all) are dumbed down.

• The Media/Entertainment is dumbed down.

• And the biggie, Mass Media News is seriously dumbed down.

I agree with the things you have said above....

But, I have some questions.

1. Do you think that if the system is dumbed down then Americans must have less education on average?
2. Do you think that Americans who go to college are more educated on average than their average European counterparts?
3. Is America successful in business globally in spite of its dumbed down population?
4. Do you think there are any things that are better in the US than in Germany?
5. Do you think that the US would be better if they doubled the taxes so that it would be more in line with Germany's?

These are not fecitious questions, I would be really interested to get your perspective.

[Marco Polo]

Still Growing, you are really hitting the nail on the head here. I would like to post something that I've posted recently on a different forum:

... I do not hate. Hating is for the weak and immature.

Rather, I feel bad for America. For the dumbing down you've endured the last few decades, your substandard education system, your over-the-top cultural relativism and your weakening economy.

We should all try to help America, instead of joining the smoldering bandwagon. After all, America has made some extremely notable contributions to civilization, as well as their share of mistakes.

As for the general notion that Americans are "stupid", I would like to address that too. OK, take the average guy in a socialist European country and compare him to the average American -- certainly, the American may look like a raging moron. But the Americans also have a great advantage: their brightest and best - their intellectual elite if you will (and business elite for that matter) - is very impressive. In many respects - dare I say it - they're completely unsurpassed.

I have limited experience of Americans, but from the little that I do have, my impression is this: any given American individual is either extremely intelligent, or extremely dumb. I would say that sort of dichotomy is less prominent in Europe.

Over here the overriding paradigm is that everyone should be "average" (harmony is a higher virtue than excellence).

So I think you'll find that the statement "Americans are stupid" holds very little credence when you dig deeper.

[Still Growing]

Marco Polo,

I've made ten different posts coming at different angles and you are the first to address it. I think you even made it more clear.

There are other countries that have large class gaps such as Brazil however I think that the US is the most developed country which still has such a large gap between classes. I think that Europeans find this appalling however I think the average American cherishes it.

Small town Americans believe that if you work hard you should earn more and they believe the gov't should stay out of their business and keep taxes low. Your average American's value system is simply different.

The US needs a major overhaul via campaign finance reform, more control over lobbyist and a revolution on our int'l policies however I do hope that the US maintains its core culture.

Which country are you from? Curious.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

I agree with the things you have said above....

But, I have some questions.

1. Do you think that if the system is dumbed down then Americans must have less education on average?
2. Do you think that Americans who go to college are more educated on average than their average European counterparts?
3. Is America successful in business globally in spite of its dumbed down population?
4. Do you think there are any things that are better in the US than in Germany?
5. Do you think that the US would be better if they doubled the taxes so that it would be more in line with Germany's?

These are not fecitious questions, I would be really interested to get your perspective.

1. Yes. (The average american.)

2. I don't know the answer to that one. Don't have a reference point as I did not go to college in Germany.

3. Was successful. Dollar is plunging. Maybe a better word then dumbed down is "manipulated"? (Not to say other countries citizens aren't manipulated also.)

4. LOL....I'll have to think hard on that one. Ok. Got one. Germany has a more "old school" outlook, america has a "younger" youthful outlook.

5. LOL...Definitley not. U.S. Arms Industry (Defense Contractors) would just have more money to waste.

[Still Growing]

1. I agree with you about the average of high school graduates.
2. I haven't seen the stats on this but I suspect that Americans catch up world wide and maybe even surprass the averages in Europe in some fields of study. From my experience the US colleges are pretty darn exceptional.
3. Was successful... Hmmmm. I would say that even though the US is having problems that it is still a successful country... no? You make it sound like Americans are loosers. Certainly you don't think that Americans are so dumb that they can't do anything right do you?
4. You have to think that hard? I can tell you a lot of things that Germany is better at than the US. The fact that you have to struggle to think about the US possibly being better at even one thing shows a blind despisal of the US. I don't think you're being fair here.
5. Yea, unfortunately thats true. See I feel I'm being fair maybe in your haste to diss the US you are blind to any good aspects about it. I'm curious to know why you live in the US if you think its full of idiots, doesn't have one single thing that you like about it over Germany and is such a horrible place? As a side note I love Germany too; great country with many things and systems I prefer over the US.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

3. Was successful... Hmmmm. I would say that even though the US is having problems that it is still a successful country... no? You make it sound like Americans are loosers. Certainly you don't think that Americans are so dumb that they can't do anything right do you?

Was successful. The dollar is plunging and has plunged fast due, mostly to the Government now in power. You cannot spend $656.1 billion to date, which is over half a Trillion dollars to satisfy U.S. Arms dealers (Cheney and his pals) without severely crippling an economy. As is now happening. Also, those last 2 sentences are putting words in my mouth, eh? We both know I'm not implying that. So why say it?

Originally Posted by Still Growing

4. You have to think that hard? I can tell you a lot of things that Germany is better at than the US. The fact that you have to struggle to think about the US possibly being better at even one thing shows a blind despisal of the US. I don't think you're being fair here.

And you are absolutely right. Let me be clear on one thing. In the last 20 years, I've seen huge changes in the U.S. It used to be a great place to live. Minimal laws. Now it seems I live in a Nanny controlled Disneyland.

(Imagine that at one point one could make a fire, invite some friends and have a fun evening sitting on the beach drinking some beers ?!?) Now of course we all know, if you light a fire on the beach, sand burns (?!?). Hence the absolute need to outlaw Fires on beaches. (Ca. Law.) Safety issue, right ?!?

Anyway. Due to incredible changes in Government, changes in Manipulating the U.S. public by Corpo-ruin-nations run amok, changes in the Takeover by a Chemical run infrastructure in Foods, Medicine, Drinking water, etc. things are Very different then 20 years ago.

Originally Posted by Still Growing

5. Yea, unfortunately thats true. See I feel I'm being fair maybe in your haste to diss the US you are blind to any good aspects about it. I'm curious to know why you live in the US if you think its full of idiots, doesn't have one single thing that you like about it over Germany and is such a horrible place? As a side note I love Germany too; great country with many things and systems I prefer over the US.

Why do I live here? The answer is I am planning on a move for the reasons listed above. Now, where is another question in itself.
Any suggestions ?

I'll end with this is a good thread. It is waking people up to how things used to be, and where they are now in the U.S.

[Still Growing]

3. I understand your point
4. I agree with the things you said but I still can think of some good things about the US. I get your point about the US having more laws now however from my experience Germany is pretty tight. I can't tell you how many things that is acceptable in the US that would be forbidden or you'd need a permit for in Germany. On the other side Germany is ran like a clock compared to the US.
5. Want to move? If you don't like the high taxes of socialism and the corrupt capitalism of the US, want a good economy but no gov't corruption then I think you are running out of choices.

I agree that there is change.... you can feel it. Some call it progression; I suppose it could be called that. The truth is that the future will be some combination of both.

[Brutha]

Well even if 100% would know about that you can't change history knowing that fact.

And it's false. While you can't change what happened in the past, you can change history.

Well even if 100% would know about that you can't change history knowing that fact. There is an entire profession that is employed in the business of history.

If you want why certain things happen in the middle east, you should know about the holocaust and how Isreal came to be.

As long as people make decisions based on historical events, knowing those events helps you understand their decisions.

A good example would be Afganistan. Afgan people rather trust Germans to be there to help rebuild the country and not to be there to occupy Afganistan based on historical events where Germany acted differently in Afganistan than other nations.

Being the only first and only country that used atomic weapons also matters when you want to understand how other people react when you talk about using "tactial nukes" or when you talk about Iran.

The education system is seriously dumbed down. A U.S. 12th grade equates to almost the 8th or 9th grade in Germany. (I know, I've been through it coming here from Germany in 72')

Is there something like a U.S. 12th grade? Isn't there a huge diffrence between the average public school and a lot of private ones?

[Calimero]

Originally Posted by Brutha

And it's false. While you can't change what happened in the past, you can change history.

Well even if 100% would know about that you can't change history knowing that fact. There is an entire profession that is employed in the business of history.

I am not sure if I understand it correct what you write here.
But with my interpretation of it....I have to agree that I defined my point of view incorrect.

Of course I meant that we cant change what happened in the past....so we cant bring all people back to live that died in all the wars that have be fought for the cause of some mad psychopath.

But what many people learn in the "lessons of history at school" is indeed always but a part of what really happened. We never get the hole story if we don't search for it ourselves and stick to what we got at school. Schools are often "run" by govs, and it depend of in what country you live, who is in charge of that country and what kind of external affairs this country maintain with other countries..etc...which part of the story you will be told, and if some lies were added upon the story.
So yes you are right, history changes all the time and is different from country to country etc..

But if we never get the whole complete story at schools, just a part, just a half truth than you can even call those who can give a definition about the holocaust dumb....as they know only the definition and they use the definition to justify the terror of Israël today. And in fact the reason why they teach in Europe about the holocaust is exactly to make Europeans believe that Israël has the right to do what they do, just because all these poor Jews were slaughtered in WWII.
What they never tell in history lessons here is how many Russians died, how many gipsy's died, how many homosexual people died, how many people with a handicap died,....etc....
Why did they only give the Jews Israël and the freedom to do whatever they like to the former inhabitants of what they call Israël today?
Why not a country for Gypsies? Why not a country for people with a handicap? Why not a country for .....all those other groups that have been massacred?
And why did Israël had to be situated in Palestina?
Why didn't they give a part of Europe itself? It were the Europeans that did the slaughtering, not the Palestinians. So if guilt would have been the drive to give the Jews a bit of land, it should have been on European soil.
But of course it wasn't guilt...

So how bad is it if one doesn't know the define the holocaust? It is only a fraction of what happened in the past. It was huge that is for sure, but still compared to the what happened in a whole over the whole time of wwII it was only a part of it. So there were masses more people sacrificed but all forgotten for the sake of Israël.
So that is why I said that knowing how to define the holocaust is not enough to prevent that cruelty from the past repeats today and in the future and untill eternity.

When I left school I only knew about the Jews, now I know a lot more. So I guess it are not the schools that are responsible for what you know. Only for what you can recall from the time you spent there. A good working memory doesn't mean you are smarter. If the only thing your memory contains is what you were told at school and you never tried to broaden in some way, the only thing that makes you different from those who don't know what the holocaust is, is that your were at a different school and/or your memory works better than theirs. So those who were never told what the holocaust was, or who don't remember are not dumber than those who can remember but never ever wondered if there was only one story in the past that had to be remembered...or where we could learn something from.

If i misunderstood again, sorry once more. But with this post it I tried to explain a little clearer what I meant.

[Brutha]

We never get the hole story if we don't search for it ourselves and stick to what we got at school.

You still don't get to know everything that happened in the past, because the past is gone.

And why did Israël had to be situated in Palestina?
Why didn't they give a part of Europe itself? It were the Europeans that did the slaughtering, not the Palestinians. So if guilt would have been the drive to give the Jews a bit of land, it should have been on European soil.

Unfortuantly, you missed to much of history to know the answer.

So how bad is it if one doesn't know the define the holocaust?

You don't have to find it right that Israel was created that way, but understanding why something happened is a good first step before you actually do something.
Otherwise you are just ignorant. If you don't understand why other people do the things they do you are less effective.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Is there something like a U.S. 12th grade? Isn't there a huge diffrence between the average public school and a lot of private ones?

The German 12th grade is comparable to the first couple years of Community colleges in the U.S.
Yes, I would imagine there is a big difference between public and private. I'm not sure on that one.

[Calimero]

Originally Posted by Brutha

You still don't get to know everything that happened in the past, because the past is gone.
Unfortuantly, you missed to much of history to know the answer.

You don't have to find it right that Israel was created that way, but understanding why something happened is a good first step before you actually do something.
Otherwise you are just ignorant. If you don't understand why other people do the things they do you are less effective.

I am sorry if I sound if like if I know everything. Of course I don't know everything. I didn't want to sound like that and I will never claim that I know everything.
So yes I missed to much to know the answer.
But I have been searching for that answer. And to be honest I found many answers....but to be honest most of the time I don't get the motivations they are giving for all actions that were taken....I mean up till today I haven't heard a noble reason to kill off people in a the second WW and neither have I found a reason to create Israël that made me smile and say "well wow that is really a good reason to do that in the Palestina".

So I guess I am dumber than the average American because even when I know what the holocaust is, I never ever found a satisfying reason for all the killings that have been done in the past. Americans now why they bombed Iraq and Afghanistan and in earlier times Libya and before that Vietnam and Korea and so on and so on...and many Americans found it reasonable that it had to happen...so they seem to understand "motives" better than I do. And that is probably why they are so successful in ruling nearly all over the world. So they seem to be not that dumb to me at all even if they can't define the holocaust. They have a very good relations with Israël as well, so even if 50% of the population doesn't know what the holocaust is, the Israëlis don't bother as they are close friends with the US, closer than with Europe where people can give you some definition.

And of course it is good to first understand why something happened before you actually do something. To be honest that is the reason why I just don't do anything at all when it comes to "world affairs and world politics" as this single lifetime is to short to get trough and thoroughly to all the points of view that in so many matters from the past up till today. But the us citizens seem to understand more like I already wrote above, as they supporting their gov and the gov has no problem to find each time extra soldiers.

For me it would be impossible to understand all of the people, I am not "a god".
So I guess I will stay less effective on world affairs but as it was never my purpose to do something on "world level" it is not that a big deal.

And being able to define the holocaust is far away from understanding why it happened and why Israël popped up after that.
Do you really think that they explain the why at all schools in Europe? Forget it.
So if Americans are dumb because they can't tell you what the holocaust is, so are Europeans because they don't have any idea why it all happened that way....
"wir haben es nicht gewusst" can be completed with "and we still don't have a clue why and how it got that far and it all seems to start all over again....except that this time we chose the Muslims in stead of the Jews to blame anything on".
At least that is the state where many Europeans are in now.
And I thing that is really not smarter than the US plebs.

Like I already said, I think the percentage of ignorant people is everywhere the same in the world. It is only sometimes a little different, and the reasons why people got ignorant are also very different. I know people with high educations that are more ignorant than people that went to school only till the age of 14 year. So it is not all to blame on the education system. There is another factor as well......and that is what whole this website is about.....self development....the purpose of your life....the purpose you give to your life....light or darkworker?
Just say that the crowed of one nation is dumb because of those two questions above and because of the school system....

[Brutha]

I mean up till today I haven't heard a noble reason to kill off people in a the second WW and neither have I found a reason to create Israël that made me smile and say "well wow that is really a good reason to do that in the Palestina".

Things often don't happen for "noble reasons".

Without claiming to say everything that matters on the issue:
First it's not that some European decided first that it's a good idea to give the Jewish people Isreal and later all those people went to Isreal.
It was a decision made by the Jewish people to settle in Israel for religious reasons (Zionism).
There was also the "never again"-zeitgeist. They decided that they should fullfil their prophecy, because they think that getting their own country protects them from racism (very ironic if you consider that it easier to kill a lot of them today by throwing a atom bomb on Isreal).
It's also America that pays the money for a huge part of Isreals military that allowed Isreal to not get wiped of the map by it's neighbors.
Why does America pay that much to Israel? America has a strong Jewish political interests.
And they have the big holocaust argument that also plays into American politics.
They are also a huge voting block that votes based on the Isreal position of candidats.
Why does America has such interest and not say France? The holocaust reduced the number of Jewish people in Europe.
Why did the Nazis made the holocaust? Because of strong Jewish political interests that they didn't like in Europe.

I don't think that you can understand the middle East without understanding the holocaust.
There are also other issues involved in the middle East but the holocaust is a central issue.

Do you really think that they explain the why at all schools in Europe? Forget it.

No, I don't. But I still think that when people don't know a lot that it's good when they know a few important things that played central roles.

One of the reason that Bush gives for invading Iran is that Iran is denying the holocaust. You at least have to know what the holocaust means to evaluate a argument like that.

I hate the fact that you don't have a seperate plural "you" in English. The part about being ignorant was more about being ignorant as a group.
Since America has democratic elements, it counts a bit what it's citizins think. If a lot of people demostrate for something where they understand nothing about the issue it affects politics (sometimes).