Human Rights

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

The world needs to step it up:

BBC NEWS | Special Reports | World 'failing on human rights'

[Dave Kaminski]

We need to step it up. It really does start inside.

Every second of every day is another chance to push human rights recognition in the right direction. Let's all work together, huh?

ATC - how do you think we could use this thread to help raise human rights awareness and breed ideas for all of us to help promote human rights?

[Syr]

While the article focuses on torture, in most "democracies" more and more rights are restricted and privacy infringed by the government, all in the name of "the war on terror". In democracies the government should be afraid of the people and not vice versa.

My idea of terrorists is shifting more and more from angry, frustrated zealots to the people we've "elected".

Dave: I think people reading this thread are probably interested in human rights anyway. But people can write their representative in the senate to look into things. Some other threads on these forums (especially those dealing with religions) show that many of us have to "improve" their own views as well.

[Dave Kaminski]

Originally Posted by Syr

While the article focuses on torture, in most "democracies" more and more rights are restricted and privacy infringed, all in the name of "the war on terror". In democracies the government should be afraid of the people and not vice versa.

My idea of terrorists is shifting more and more from angry, frustrated zealots to the people we've "elected".

As it should - they're so focused on terrorists because they are their competition - they are just better at (or have more of a standing relationship) concealing and twisting terror than the terrorists.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Dave Kaminski

We need to step it up. It really does start inside.

Every second of every day is another chance to push human rights recognition in the right direction. Let's all work together, huh?

ATC - how do you think we could use this thread to help raise human rights awareness and breed ideas for all of us to help promote human rights?

We can start by treating ourselves and those immediately around us with greater respect and compassion. And, we can open our eyes to what's going on in the world instead of staying so insulated in the relatively comfortable US (where they at least try to hide these abuses from us).

I hoped to hear some ideas about what we can do in this thread because I am not sure what we can do nationally or globally. For one, I would put my vote to work and use it to elect officials with a strong interest in human rights. We can support causes like Amnesty International. We can write letters to our officials speaking out. In this thread we can put up articles that talk about the issue and hopefully find some resources that will show us how to make a difference.

What more?

[Dave Kaminski]

I think we should make this thread into a quasi-manifesto, for what is education without action!?

Let's spend some time researching (I'll pledge 2 hours today to find a human rights issue I think I can and should support locally) and then let others know what path we're taking to support our local issues!

Anyone with me!? Up for the challenge?!

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Dave Kaminski

I think we should make this thread into a quasi-manifesto, for what is education without action!?

Let's spend some time researching (I'll pledge 2 hours today to find a human rights issue I think I can and should support locally) and then let others know what path we're taking to support our local issues!

Anyone with me!? Up for the challenge?!

Great idea. I'll see what I can find locally as well.

[Dave Kaminski]

Maybe we can formulate a call to action on this thread, finalize it as an idea, and then post a new thread where people will pledge and agree and post their progress?

I'd say that would be using this forum to it's potential, wouldn't you?!

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Dave Kaminski

Maybe we can formulate a call to action on this thread, finalize it as an idea, and then post a new thread where people will pledge and agree and post their progress?

I'd say that would be using this forum to it's potential, wouldn't you?!

Yeah, cool, I'm down.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Dave Kaminski

then let others know what path we're taking to support our local issues!

I've found this site that lists volunteer organizations in my area that deal with advocacy and human rights. I am going to look into each one and see what I will do first.

Nonprofit Organization Search Results

[Amadeus]

We need to step it up. It really does start inside.

DAVE

Huh? Step it up how. We should just sit down and try to reason with these people who are hurting their citizens. Sure hundreds of thousands more will die, but we need to talk and be civilized. Because God only knows if we decide to "invade" (liberals love this word) we might accidentally kill one civilian while saving potentially hundreds of thousands of lives. We need to be civil and compasionate for these leaders.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

Step it up how. We should just sit down and try to reason with these people who are hurting their citizens.

This thread is intended to be a place for people who care about human rights to think about it and come up with some solutions. If you don't have anything to contribute other than snark, kindly take it elsewhere.

We in the US are decidedly not doing ANYTHING about the majority of the human rights violations here at home OR abroad (not even fighting violent and losing wars). Again, we only get involved when our own interests are at stake as is the case in Iraq.

[Dave Kaminski]

I did some research yesterday and am thinking I'm going to volunteer to help the native people of Toronto - they, like native Americans, we the recipients of a lot of harm when Europeans came over.

I'd like to do my part to help get them back on my feet as my research shows that's an issue around here - proud people with different customs whose things were taken from them. There are many non-profits and such around here for them, and I'm going to volunteer for one or two.

The search will continue!

[Amadeus]

This thread is intended to be a place for people who care about human rights to think about it and come up with some solutions. If you don't have anything to contribute other than snark, kindly take it elsewhere.

Aspiring

No, I'll post on here or anywhere else on this forum as long as a follow the rules. Why do you say I am not contributing? My solution is that we actually DO something about it and not just write endless worthless posts about it. I can can also cut and paste all day, but that is worth just as much as your "thoughts" about what needs to be done. Talk is cheap.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

we might accidentally kill one civilian while saving potentially hundreds of thousands of lives.

@ Amadeus

In Iraq, between 600,000 (lancet) and 1.2 million (ORB) additional have deaths occurred due to our military action there.

Who are the people you think we are saving?

[Amadeus]

In Iraq, between 600,000 (lancet) and 1.2 million (ORB) additional deaths occurred due to our military action there.

Dan

Arrording to whom? Where did you get your info? Did they have a vested interest or political agenda to fudge the numbers?

[Dan.Linehan]

ORB survey - ORB survey of Iraq War casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On 28 January 2008, ORB published an update based on additional work carried out in rural areas of Iraq. Some 600 additional interviews were undertaken and as a result of this the death estimate was revised to 1,033,000 with a given range of 946,000 to 1,120,000.

ORB - Newsroom


Lancet surveys - Lancet surveys of Iraq War casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Funded by MIT.

We estimate that between March 18, 2003, and June, 2006, an additional 654,965 (392,979–942,636) Iraqis have died above what would have been expected on the basis of the pre-invasion crude mortality rate as a consequence of the coalition invasion. Of these deaths, we estimate that 601,027 (426,369–793,663) were due to violence.

The method is the standard used in poor countries. The same method was used by the US government following wars in Kosovo and Afghanistan. Roberts also said that the US government's Smart Initiative program is spending millions of dollars per year teaching NGOs and UN workers how to use the same cluster method for estimating mortality rates.


Iraqi Health Ministry survey - Iraqi Health Ministry casualty survey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

400,000 Excess deaths due to war.

The NEJM article found a doubling of mortality after the invasion, Lancet found a 2.4-fold increase.



There are around half a million additional people dead, possibly up to a million though.

Who are the people you are talking about saving?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

My solution is that we actually DO something about it and not just write endless worthless posts about it.

That's exactly the thing. We were already formulating a plan to find info on actionable things we can do to help. You didn't come in and add to that, you came in and sarcastically attacked as you usually do. Dave and I were here trying to find local items we could get involved in. We were going to encourage others to do the same. What exactly did you contribute to actually DOING something? I don't see it.

It's true that I can't tell you where or where not to post. It's just really frustrating wading through your vitriol when I'm looking to get support and answers.

So, if you are really contributing to finding a solution, what do you think we could do to improve human rights around the world? Do you have any ideas?

[Lauxa]

Okay, I'm not totally sure if this is relevant here, but it's been on my mind lately. This could come out a bit rambling.

It seems human rights issues are really distribution of wealth issues. I've been studying the Qur'an and Islam lately, and in the Muslim world you are expected to give 2-3% of your accumulated wealth to charity each year. There is also Ramadan and maybe some other times where Muslims are instructed to give to charity. Charity means giving to the poor, but the Qur'an specifically instructs that when a choice must be made, taking care of poor relatives is morally superior to taking care of strangers.

Of course there is Christian tithing as well, which is generally placed at 10% of income. But I understand that tithing generally goes to the Church to benefit the members rather than being solely for charity to the needy.

So what do you think? Do we have a greater responsibility to our own families/employees/communities than to the rest of the world? And what amount of resources should be given to charity?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

So what do you think? Do we have a greater responsibility to our own families/employees/communities than to the rest of the world? And what amount of resources should be given to charity?

I think that it's a great idea to start with those immediately around you. Actually, start with yourself and take good care of your own well-being and then let that fullness flow out to the people around you, the community and the world. When you give and help your friends, family and community, I think it can actually change the world. I wouldn't say there's a certain amount that is required as far as money, but whatever you can do out of your abundance.

At the church I formerly attended, there were tithes of course, but the church donated to many, many worthy causes in our city and around the world.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

Of course there is Christian tithing as well, which is generally placed at 10% of income. But I understand that tithing generally goes to the Church to benefit the members rather than being solely for charity to the needy.

Why not tithe 100%?

Every dollar is a vote. Aim to make 100% of your income go towards products you would like to see more of in the world. Organic fruits and veggies, goods made in the US, rock climbing gyms. Whatever you want to see more of.

Think about Steve's all fruit diet. No packaging was being purchased and 100% of his food budget was going to organic fruit farmers. Now that's tithing.

[Dan.Linehan]

Another example: I just found out that Dr. Bronners uses fair trade Organic Olive Oil from Palestinian producers.

Take the time to watch the whole video on that page. It will tell you more about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in a few minutes than the news or politicians ever will.

All the money you spend is charity. Just make sure to know where it's going.

[Lauxa]

Something that might make a difference in human rights would be an organization that ranked every company and/or product in existence on certain criteria and then published a "human rights rating" for that product. Then, when you are shopping for products (say, online) it would be possible to also pull up the human rights rating and use it as a factor in the purchasing decision. Even better would be if you could scan the item at the store on your internet-enabled cell phone and make real-time purchasing decisions based on the information you receive.

For instance, let's say you are at Footlocker and you have a choice between Adidas and Nike shoes. You pull up the company rating and find that Adidas has a rating of -5 and Nike has a rating of -8. Neither rating is too good, but Adidas is a bit better so you buy those shoes. Enough people do this and Nike has an incentive to bring up their rating to at least the same level as Adidas.

[Plato]

Fair trade is something we can all support on a daily basis, if we choose to, yet most people don't seem to care.

[Dave Kaminski]

Originally Posted by Plato

Fair trade is something we can all support on a daily basis, if we choose to, yet most people don't seem to care.

A.) "Be the change you want to see in the world" -Gandhi

B.) The people that DO care are the ones you're supporting with your purchases. The more fair trade and organic you buy over non-fair trade and inorganic, the more these people will be able to grow and trade naturally and fairly.

These are self-perpetuating choices. This is "the Secret" "LoA" and "IM" all together - they are simply logical formulae for actions that build on themselves.

[Lauxa]

And yet it is so hard to sort out the real information. If a "fair trade" company charges 2x as much for the product so that farmers can make an extra $1 a day (pulling numbers out of my ...) is it worth it? Maybe a better measure of fairness would be the profit distribution... that is, how much more do the highest-paid employees make than the lowest-paid.

[Dave Kaminski]

Well, think of it this way, since you were thinking "better or worse"

Every dollar you spend on companies that lobby for their negative influence and underpay their workers and feed their executives. Each dollar grows their company; every dollar you don't spend on said companies that you would or may have shrinks their company.

Every dollar you spend on organic/fair trade companies grows their budget and their company and pays their workers and feeds their execs. Same goes for every dollar you don't spend on theirs that you spend elsewhere, the company shrinks.

[Amadeus]

OK, I've just been informed by a moderator that my posts are not contributing anything. So you Aspiring, Dan, etc are right, and I'm wrong. Sorry for bringing my point of view across. I'll just not say anything if this is how this thing works. Sorry.

[Dave Kaminski]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

OK, I've just been informed by a moderator that my posts are not contributing anything. So you Aspiring, Dan, etc are right, and I'm wrong. Sorry for bringing my point of view across. I'll just not say anything if this is how this thing works. Sorry.

It's OK Amadeus, although this is off topic, we forgive you and appreciate your efforts to add! I don't know where anyone is saying they're right or wrong though!

We're very interested in your point of view, actually. There is no right or wrong in my mind when it comes to this stuff - it's personal choice, personal views. No need to get emotionally attached - you have control over your actions and no one else's. Continue to believe what you'd like if it empowers you or resonates with you!

If you think you do have something to say, go ahead and try to add as you would. I think it's silly to let the mod team "get you down," if you know inside that you're trying your best to contribute.

You're a powerful addition to the conversations - your sometimes opposite views in situations help to spark the fire under us and get us acting instead of chatting.

Keep up the good work! At least you're posting and not just watching from the sidelines. It's admirable!

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

I'll just not say anything if this is how this thing works.

Amadeus,

For my part, it's not a wish that you stay out of the thread so much as that you don't come in guns blazing, seemingly looking for a fight. It's not the different viewpoint that bothers me, it's the attitude. And I also know that getting my buttons pushed means there is something in me I need to look at, so thank you.

I asked in a previous post, and I'm still really interested to know, what you think we could do to help the cause of human rights instead of just making threads about it. Of course posting alone won't solve anything. So, do you think that there is a need to fight for human rights around the world? What types of programs or strategies should we use?