An observation of the faults of current systems of government

[Dave Kaminski]

Communism makes way more sense long term than capitalism does.

Why should there be some rich and some poor? We all share the same Earth.

If everyone is contributing equally (which is utopian, so you'd actually have to let go of your ego a bit to live harmoniously in a communist society - oh no!) why shouldn't everyone share in the limited resources available?

Once needs are met, I don't give a damn who gets what, but everyone should have at least basic shelter and nourishment. I don't see either party getting this done, though.

[Eric Revelin]

Originally Posted by Dave Kaminski

Also, communism makes way more sense long term than capitalism does.

Why should there be some rich and some poor? We all share the same Earth.

If everyone is contributing equally (which is utopian, so you'd actually have to let go of your ego a bit to live harmoniously in a communist society - oh no!) why shouldn't everyone share in the limited resources available?

Once needs are met, I don't give a damn who gets what, but everyone should have at least basic shelter and nourishment. I don't see either party getting this done, though.

*Blinks, as if I'm staring blankly at a wall*

But how are we supposed to profit off of that?

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by Dave Kaminski

Also, communism makes way more sense long term than capitalism does.

Why should there be some rich and some poor? We all share the same Earth.

If everyone is contributing equally (which is utopian, so you'd actually have to let go of your ego a bit to live harmoniously in a communist society - oh no!) why shouldn't everyone share in the limited resources available?

Once needs are met, I don't give a damn who gets what, but everyone should have at least basic shelter and nourishment. I don't see either party getting this done, though.

"IF EVERYONE IS CONTRIBUTING EQUALLY". Well thats a mouthful. Isn't that the entire reason that communism failed?

Dave I think we'd all agree that there are a wide variety of people among us. Some giving, some hard working and others that do just enough to get by. I have found that on average, people tend to do whats in their best interest (on average). You may be a rare individual who will work hard and contribute to society even if you make the same as the person sitting at home but most people in the world today work harder for more gain.

Many people make references of you being socialistic or liberal. I guess they had no idea how far left you really were. You are a communist. Wow.

[Amadeus]

Well said in there Still Growing.

If everyone is contributing equally (which is utopian, so you'd actually have to let go of your ego a bit to live harmoniously in a communist society - oh no!) why shouldn't everyone share in the limited resources available?

"If" Not everyone is contributing equally and they never will, which is the reason communism never worked nor ever will. Liberals who adore Fidal Castro and his government would love the same kind of government here in the states. Fortunately I work for a living and I've spoken to former Cubans who's family had everything they had worked for their whole lives stolen by the communist thug over there in Cuba when he took power. I'm sure if the same thing happened to you you would be thrilled to work in that kind of government wouldn't you? The productive (a lot of the wealthy) rightfully migrate away from socialistic forms of government. Why do you think Steve Pavlina's corporation is in Nevada? Ask him why? Also ask him why people are moving out by thousands out of California to get away from the "everyone should be equal" kind of government.

[Dave Kaminski]

Did I suggest communism? Or did I say it was more viable long term than capitalism?

It shouldn't be impossible to make a point or argue on the side of another theory without being a full blown proponent of it, should it?

[Amadeus]

Did I suggest communism? Or did I say it was more viable long term than capitalism?

You're wrong either way. Capitalism has proven to work and communism fails miserably every time. Ask the Cubans, Chinese, and North Koreans if they have equal say and wealth as everyone else in their country.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

Capitalism has proven to work

Capitalism is working?!

[Dave Kaminski]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

You're wrong either way. Capitalism has proven to work and communism fails miserably every time. Ask the Cubans, Chinese, and North Koreans if they have equal say and wealth as everyone else in their country.

Just because it's working for you doesn't mean it's working for everyone.

Ask the cubans, chinese, north koreans, south koreans, iraqis, africans, indians, aboriginals, and the people below the poverty line how well it's working out for them?

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Capitalism is working?!

Yes captialism is the only thing that is working....

BUT, we have capitalism that is not being governed. We've got foxes in the chicken coup. If the government governs and the people work in a capitalistic economy then its by far the best system.

Aspiring you make capitalism sound worse than communism. Surely you don't think that.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

Yes captialism is the only thing that is working....

BUT, we have capitalism that is not being governed. We've got foxes in the chicken coup. If the government governs and the people work in a capitalistic economy then its by far the best system.

Aspiring you make capitalism sound worse than communism. Surely you don't think that.

Maybe I do!

I honestly don't know enough about the subject to state my position definitively. However, I personally work hard for myself, but have no problem whatsoever with some of my money going to help those less fortunate than me. If I could direct where my tax dollars were spent, you can be sure it would be on initiatives to help the homeless or low income people rather than on war.

I'd like for everyone to be fed, housed, clothed, educated and cared for when medically necessary (including prevention). I have no problem with footing the bill for those who cannot do so themselves. It's my opinion that we would do well to concern ourselves with the struggling in our own country and then on humanitarian aid to other parts of the world before all of the other spending we do. I don't know where that places me on the ideology scale.

[Dave Kaminski]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

Yes captialism is the only thing that is working....

BUT, we have capitalism that is not being governed. We've got foxes in the chicken coup. If the government governs and the people work in a capitalistic economy then its by far the best system.

Aspiring you make capitalism sound worse than communism. Surely you don't think that.

I imagine if capitalism could be made to work with good management then so could communism...

I'm not exactly sure how this thread came about and am appalled that it was started under my name, because this argument was made in context and is now taken out of context.

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by Dave Kaminski

Just because it's working for you doesn't mean it's working for everyone.

Ask the cubans, chinese, north koreans, south koreans, iraqis, africans, indians, aboriginals, and the people below the poverty line how well it's working out for them?

OK Dave, how many of these countries have you been to?

Communism has not helped the masses. Cuba would be like the Bahamas today if it had been capitalistic.The only good thing happenening to China is Capitalism is kicking in. The less the gov't has been in the mix the faster China has been growing. The Chinese gov't is reducing their ownership and participation in the local companies and capitalism is working. South Korea is flourishing because its a free economy and North Korea is in poverty and there is a major food shortage due to its dictator. Russia is exploding and is one of the fastest growing economies in the world due to capitalism.

People always talk and theorize but if you look at what works then you'd have to go with capitalism.

In 50,000 more years I think mankind may evolve into a communist state but we're no where ready for it yet.

But when the time comes we'll all be dominated by one central gov't and big brother.

Communism looks great on paper. However capitalism actually works right now.

[Dave Kaminski]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

OK Dave, how many of these countries have you been to?

Communism has not helped the masses. Cuba would be like the Bahamas today if it had been capitalistic.The only good thing happenening to China is Capitalism is kicking in. The less the gov't has been in the mix the faster China has been growing. The Chinese gov't is reducing their ownership and participation in the local companies and capitalism is working. South Korea is flourishing because its a free economy and North Korea is in poverty and there is a major food shortage due to its dictator. Russia is exploding and is one of the fastest growing economies in the world due to capitalism.

People always talk and theorize but if you look at what works then you'd have to go with capitalism.

In 50,000 more years I think mankind may evolve into a communist state but we're no where ready for it yet.

But when the time comes we'll all be dominated by one central gov't and big brother.

Communism looks great on paper. However capitalism actually works right now.

Depends whose neighborhood you're walking through, in either situtation.

[schola]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

However, I personally work hard for myself, but have no problem whatsoever with some of my money going to help those less fortunate than me.

You don't. Most people don't. But some do.

To put it very simply, communism tries to force a Utopian society onto people, which defies the very definition of an Utopia. Communism is a contradiction.

It is our nature to rebel when we perceive that we are being forced to do anything; even things that we might have otherwise done voluntarily.

[Dave Kaminski]

And what does capitalism do, very simply?

I'd say it puts the future power in the hands of those who already have the power. That doesn't sound very fair, either.

[schola]

Originally Posted by Dave Kaminski

I imagine if capitalism could be made to work with good management then so could communism...

Capitalism, in it's purest form, is natural. Markets naturally form in the absence of government. They regulate themselves on their own and naturally bring the goods to those who need them faster than any central planning could.

Communism, as well as any kind of government, is unnatural.

And what does capitalism do, very simply?

I'd say it puts the future power in the hands of those who already have the power. That doesn't sound very fair, either.

You object to the way things are now? I agree that they can be a lot better. But you've been duped. The half-breed mongrel system that we have today can hardly be called capitalism.

And all of the problems result from too much government interference. Government is influenced and controlled by the greedy capitalist pigs you hate so much. They keep their power over the market with unnatural government laws and regulations.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by schola

You don't. Most people don't. But some do.

To put it very simply, communism tries to force a Utopian society onto people, which defies the very definition of an Utopia. Communism is a contradiction.

It is our nature to rebel when we perceive that we are being forced to do anything; even things that we might have otherwise done voluntarily.

As I said, I am not well versed on the intricacies of either system. I also agree that forcing anything on people is bound to backfire. However, it does not follow that Capitalism is good and Communism is bad.

In addition, it seems lots of people are relieved of their agency under Capitalism as well. Only it occurs in a different way.

[Dave Kaminski]

W00t my argument is coming to light here - sorry, I'm not as good a communicator as I hopefully will be in the future. I'm working hard at it, I promise you this.

I think communism happens naturally, just not necessarily within the realm of humans. Look at ants, for instance.

I think communism would help us to live in unison with all earthlings, not just all humans. Capitalism seems like a system that only focuses on people, aren't we forgetting millions of life forms here?

If no one else will speak for them, I will. Capitalism is not a good way to utilize finite resources, imho.

We're talking about World Affairs here, not Human Affairs.

[schola]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

As I said, I am not well versed on the intricacies of either system. I also agree that forcing anything on people is bound to backfire. However, it does not follow that Capitalism is good and Communism is bad.

Sure. It's not black and white. One is much better than the other though.

In addition, it seems lots of people are relieved of their agency under Capitalism as well. Only it occurs in a different way.

Fairness and equality for all is impossible. It's unnatural. And it isn't really a high-conscious goal for society to pursue anyway. Materialistically, there will always be haves and have nots. But if you are posting on this forum, I'd assume that wouldn't matter to you much.

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by Dave Kaminski

And what does capitalism do, very simply?

I'd say it puts the future power in the hands of those who already have the power. That doesn't sound very fair, either.

This isn't really true. Capitalism is about the creation of new wealth, new ideas and so on. Its about creation.

With Communism, there are only sticks and no carrots. Human life mimicks capitalism. If you go back to cave man days, the guy who finds a way to hunt gets more meat and then the others learn from the hunter and copies or improves upon the system.

Capitlism is reflective of the very nature of humans.