Pat Condell - Appeasing Islam

[Akashic_Librarian]

*Note to Mods I was unsure where to post this because it covers a few topics so feel free to move at your discretion*

This video by Pat Condell is a really powerful video, I think it raises some very important and truthful issues.

-----------watch video before continuing------------------

I think he raises some very poignant issues, most importantly that Islam is NOT an equal culture to the west. It is inferior, and after watching this video I honestly feel better about admitting it. I don't have a problem stating a simple and honest truth.

So watch the video, and let the discussion commence.

[Spartan]

I'm no racist, but I must admit I hate the philosophy that is 'Islam' and everything it stands for.

Muhammad was a pedophile, he had sex with a 9 year old girl (Aisha)! He also ordered the killing of unarmed jews. Islam is a violent religion, with 'jihad' as a central concept.

Islam is a very backwards and oppressive philosophy (especially towards women). And its unjust laws have no place in the civilized world. It violates human rights, especially those of women.

It's about time we stopped pandering to those religious bigots, who come into our country with no intention of integrating or respecting our laws. Instead they want to replace our advanced, accepting culture with their own inferior, backwards and oppressive philosophy.

[Bitsy]

Just a lot of the usual lies flying out of the mouth of someone who doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground in the subject of Islam or Muslims in general. Muslims are women/wife-beating, daughter-mutilating monstrosities...oh, unless the woman is wearing a head scarf--wtf!!

I kept waiting for him to list his references for all of that nasty lies he was spewing like diarrhea out of his mouth.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

Just a lot of the usual lies flying out of the mouth of someone who doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground in the subject of Islam or Muslims in general. Muslims are women/wife-beating, daughter-mutilating monstrosities...oh, unless the woman is wearing a head scarf--wtf!!

I kept waiting for him to list his references for all of the nasty lies he was spewing like diarrhea out of his mouth.

Wake up, seriously! He never said all muslims are like that, however some are like that, and Islam in fact justifies some behaviour that violates human rights.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Bitsy, he is right. Both Spartan and Condell. Every religion, the world ever, particularly Islam at this moment in time, is virally infecting the minds nad hearts of good people. It is frankly disgusting that our English villages cannot have Christmas lights because it might offend Muslims, frankly thats grossly unfair. Its disgusting that I am not allowed to say anything bad about those of various faiths, but they can constantly rip the seven hells out of my atheism without fear of reprisal, and whats more whilsts they rally to show our government how they are not respected, and how they wish to behead, kill, maim or mutilate those who do not bow down and lick their boots...our police officers have to stand and protect them whilst simultaneously taking their abuse. My mom is a police women, she sees these people (muslims I am talknig about now) in thier muslim ghettos, they are poor, they dont speak english and they reject any western influence...and we pay for it.

Its disgusting and wrong and just another example of religious ideals being put before basic human rights. Along with no tax for churches and goddamned creationist classes.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by Spartan

Wake up, seriously! He never said all muslims are like that, however some are like that, and Islam in fact justifies some behaviour that violates human rights.

He never said any Muslim was like that, he said Islam taught that and if he didn't mean that Islam teaches beating women who "don't dress like nuns" and beating wives and mutiliating daughters, then he probably shouldn't have said all this:

According to a recent opinion poll, many Muslims say that a way for the West to have better relations with Islam is to show it more respect—and who said Muslims don't have a sense of humor.
Given that Islam is essentially above criticism in the West, it's hard to imagine how we could give it any more respect short of closing down all the pubs, growing beards and beating up women who don't want to dress like nuns.

or this:

So, although people will criticize Islam in private, they know that to do so publicly, in other words, to be honest about their feelings, would instantly make them racists and islamophobes and Nazis and disgusting, imperialist, ethnocentric fascist bastards grinding their jackboots into the faces of the innocent and the weak. So, best not make fuss—you want to beat your wife and mutilate your daughter, be our guest...

To AL: I have no idea how things are over there in England. In Finland there is no issue with any group and no one is kissing anyone else's butts there. Muslims (the ones who, God forbid, practice Islam) and all other people there live their lives and everyone minds their own business. If other European governments are kissing up to them, I don't know what the cause is, but it doesn't look like it has anything to do with Islam.

Moreover, the warped ideas Westerners are propogating about Islam are just sheer bs. Do you even know any Muslim who has mutilated his daughter? Do Western men never beat their wives and Muslim men always beat their wives?? A man doesn't need a religion to permit him to beat his wife, and a man who will beat her will, and one who won't won't, even if he is Muslim!

Ever lived in a Muslim country?? Ever even visited one? Ever been a woman in one? Muslims do bloody-well NOT mutilate their daughters and beat their women, with or without a headscarf, as a way of life. Ok?

I will admit that from what I know of Islam, it's a harsh religion, but the true fact of the matter is that a lot of Muslims don't adhere to it to such an extent, and a lot of them are as Muslim in practice as the average Christian is Christian.

[Brutha]

Not everyone who pratice Islam follows the same ideas, just as not everyone who practices Christianity follows the same ideas.
Before the period of Enlightment Christianity also justified a lot of behaviour that violates human rights.

But religions are adaptable. Today christians don't burn witches anymore.

It's a huge mistake to equate radical Islam with Islam in general. Most muslims don't follow radical Islam.
Welcoming those who follow are more friendly form of Islam while rejecting those who are extremist should be the central goal.

Its disgusting and wrong and just another example of religious ideals being put before basic human rights.

Basic human right like the freedom of religion ?
Do you know where our basic human rights came from historically?

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

Do Western men never beat their wives and Muslim men always beat their wives?? A man doesn't need a religion to permit him to beat his wife, and a man who will beat her will, and one who won't won't, even if he is Muslim!

Yet the culture of Islam perhaps makes it more likely that such men will feel justified in beating their women. Islam is a violent philosophy that justifies violence. If people are naturally more inclined to violence, perhaps Islam provides the environment for this violence to be actualized (remember behaviour is the result of environment as well)?

Originally Posted by Bitsy

I will admit that from what I know of Islam, it's a harsh religion, but the true fact of the matter is that a lot of Muslims don't adhere to it to such an extent, and a lot of them are as Muslim in practice as the average Christian is Christian.

Those 'pick and choose' types are fine, yet that doesn't make the doctrine of Islam any more respectable, just becuase some people pick and choose certain aspects and reject others, whilst still calling themselves muslim (I'm not implying they aren't muslim btw).

[Brutha]

Those 'pick and choose' type muslims are fine, yet that doesn't make the doctrine of Islam any more respectable, just becuase some people pick and choose certain aspects and reject others, whilst still calling themselves muslim.

Everyone picks and chooses. There is no such thing as a static doctrine of Islam (or Christianity).

Christian also pick and choice and don't pick genocide (how God's people found their home in Israel) or the devine right of kings anymore.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Well the central core of Islam is one of violence. It teaches that women are objects, that men are superior and violence is wholly acceptable in the name of Allah.

Yes Christians do this too, they are just as guilty of going off the rails. Now just because "alot" of religious folk decide to not take it as seriously, that does not mean those who do are absolved of their connection to said religion. If an atheist where to go around killing people who believed in religion, do you think the Pope or your local Imam would say "Oh no s/he's not representative of Atheism as a whole"? No, he/she would undoubtedly condemn them as another example of what happens to godless citizens and use it as anecdotal evidence to scare little children into believeing in fairy-tales.

So everytime I see a fundamental evangelical christian preaching the absolute rubbish they do, or an Imam preaching hate of the west, or even a Muslim who expects me not to eat my lunch in front of them when they fast, I will say the same thing. "I don't share your beliefs, I don't wish to integrate them, now take them out of my face" And I will continue to blaspheme and go straight to Hell where the De-evil will-a tak ma sowl and Allah-forbid, I will eat my lunch infront of them.

So please, don't tell me that religion is a good thing. Because its not, if you want to believe...then believe...but don't expect a goddamned bit of respect when what you believe is total and utter rubbish.

[Brutha]

If an atheist where to go around killing people who believed in religion, do you think the Pope or your local Imam would say "Oh no s/he's not representative of Atheism as a whole"? No, he/she would undoubtedly condemn them as another example of what happens to godless citizens and use it as anecdotal evidence to scare little children into believeing in fairy-tales.

Bascially your argument is that if the pope would do that he is a good role model that atheists should copy?

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Well the central core of Islam is one of violence. It teaches that women are objects, that men are superior and violence is wholly acceptable in the name of Allah.

Yes Christians do this too, they are just as guilty of going off the rails. Now just because "alot" of religious folk decide to not take it as seriously, that does not mean those who do are absolved of their connection to said religion. If an atheist where to go around killing people who believed in religion, do you think the Pope or your local Imam would say "Oh no s/he's not representative of Atheism as a whole"? No, he/she would undoubtedly condemn them as another example of what happens to godless citizens and use it as anecdotal evidence to scare little children into believeing in fairy-tales.

So everytime I see a fundamental evangelical christian preaching the absolute rubbish they do, or an Imam preaching hate of the west, or even a Muslim who expects me not to eat my lunch in front of them when they fast, I will say the same thing. "I don't share your beliefs, I don't wish to integrate them, now take them out of my face" And I will continue to blaspheme and go straight to Hell where the De-evil will-a tak ma sowl and Allah-forbid, I will eat my lunch infront of them.

So please, don't tell me that religion is a good thing. Because its not, if you want to believe...then believe...but don't expect a goddamned bit of respect when what you believe is total and utter rubbish.

I tend to agree with you in that I think religion is better suited to the past, and man would be better served by getting away from it. It's the cause of so much divisiveness, and control.
The islamic cultures, seem to have not changed in thousands of years. Yea, there are good things about them, but for the most part, they are indicative as to what will always be the case whenever religion is in control, which is that they are repressive, controlling and intolerant.

That's religion in a nutshell. and all of the western judeo / christian religions are the same. For all the good values they contain, there is just no getting away from the repressive, controlling and intolerant aspects of them. And whenever the religious nuts are allowed to gain control of a society, then that society itself will become REPRESSIVE, CONTROLLING AND INTOLERANT.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by fwellers

And whenever the religious nuts are allowed to gain control of a society, then that society itself will become REPRESSIVE, CONTROLLING AND INTOLERANT.

This is true. The U.S. is a good case-in-point.

AL, your government is pandering too much to this particular group of people. Know, though, that it's not that way everywhere.

Many things the guy said about Muslims are just a lot of nasty lies out of spite and hatred and he was just exploding his anger in a video. If he wants to be taken seriously, he has to be serious. An impartial person is not going to waste his time trying to sift through all the hatred and angry bs in order to find a valid point.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

they are poor,

Strike One!

they dont speak english

Strike Two!

and they reject any western influence

Strike Three!!!

I think a lot of people are falling for the propaganda game of the Western media. Religion doesn't make people screwed up just like atheism doesn't make people screwed up. Ultimately all religions (and non-religions like atheism) have the same goal in mind and that is truth, beauty, love and compassion.

The media tries to divide us because divided we fall. They have been playing one side against the other for ages... don't fall for it. Everything can be nitpicked apart, everything can be interpreted in a terrible way.. what counts is always a person's individual interpretation. The power of the human mind is such that an evil word can be interpreted in a good way and the most holy and sacred word can be interpreted in an evil way. People find what they look for in all texts, in all creeds...

Islam is just another attempt by some people to find God, Love, Compassion, Truth.. Atheism is yet another attempt and so is Christianity.

Do some people fail to find these things, or forget about them on the way, or simply interpret Jesus saying, "Love thy neighbor" to mean that they love him by killing him?

People are screwed up in an infinity of ways. If they could not find an excuse to kill in religion, they would find it in philosophy or in science or in poetry... these things are all just mediums, just clay to be worked by the hands of humans and then to be seen by the eyes of humans. Made, viewed, interpreted, and actor upon.

For Christ sake! People managed to use Christ himself as an excuse to kill! This is proof that they would have found ANY excuse! A teaching would not have stopped them, an inspired book would not have influenced them one way or another.

Unless we have humans on the ground spreading love through example we won't melt away these problems. Cultural barriers are nothing next to the melting power of forgiveness and unconditional love.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Bitsy what is so honorable about being impartial?

Anger at injustice, I feel, is justified. Just like when I see a little kid smile because they just worked some massive revelation out in their heads - I smile.

What Condell says is angry, but it is truth as well. Just because someone is angry doesn't mean they lie or over exaggerate. Your just making that assumption because YOU have a problem with him, a big problem it seems and maybe your a muslim? Maybe you just aren't comfy with the idea that someone might be wrong when it comes to theology. I don't know, I won't assume.

However Bitsy, there is no such thing as an impartial person. Oh sure we can pretend there is such a thing for the sake of peace, but there isn't really, everyone is biased its just the way our brains worked, so don't tell me that there will be an unbias person watching that video because there won't be, there won't be anything of the sort. The only people who will watch it are human beings, human beings with feelings, prejudices, angers, loves, hopes and fears. You patronize them all, all those who get that righteous feeling in their chest when they hear something that sings to their soul, something beyond what religion can give, beyond what deep meditation can give. Its that sense that this is RIGHT for you NOW.

So tell me Bitsy, do you get angry at percieved injustice? Or are you a paragon of calm, an oasis of peace and tranquility. I doubt it, you are human and I hope that when you get angry at something, so angry you go against all the social barriers, all the hate you might get, because you believe something so strongly (and I must stress !!have observable evidence!! for it, don't try and twist my words) that you just have to act, I hope that people are understanding and don't just patronize it like a child throwing a tantrum.

[Brutha]

The question is not whether we are biased but whether we should be biased.

I fully admit that I'm biased to seeing good in other people. But I think that it's a better bias then xenophobia.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Good point Brutha. However its not xenophobia I am talking about, it's simple intolerance of human stupidity.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Bitsy what is so honorable about being impartial?

Nobody's talking about honor. And a person who doesn't see the value in being impartial is in a sad state. The value in impartiality is the ability to solve the thing that you're so pissed off about!

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Anger at injustice, I feel, is justified.

Oh, good, then you'll understand why I get angry when I hear slander like what that guy says.

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

What Condell says is angry, but it is truth as well.

It is not truth! It is hostile, slanderous rubbish he might have picked up from some news story and applied sweepingly to the religion and all the people "go ahead, beat your wives, mutilate your daughters, after all, that's what you do, because you're Muslims!" what horrible things to say!!

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Your just making that assumption because YOU have a problem with him, a big problem it seems and maybe your a muslim?

Naturally, because I am somewhat informed about Islam and have plenty of firsthand experience with Muslim people, of course, through Western eyes, I must be Muslim. After all, as everyone knows, no Westerner would ever actually educate himself enough in Muslims' ways of life to actually have any arguments with any veracity, since truth and independent thought have no place in the West either. If being independently truth-seeking and not being ignorant makes me a Muslim, then so be it.

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Maybe you just aren't comfy with the idea that someone might be wrong when it comes to theology.

This has absolutely nothing to do with theology. This is about stupidity and ignorance about an entire population of people and their way of life.

However Bitsy, there is no such thing as an impartial person.

This isn't about impartiality either. I only made that point about his anger because I had understood erroneously from the title of this thread that he was some kind of public figure and not just a common guy from the street. I thought I was supposed to recognize his name, or that people in Britain would recognize it. If you are a person in power, you have to at least have the semblance of being diplomatic. I guess he is just a nobody, like everyone else though. We can get angry, because we don't hold positions that represent anyone but ourselves. But if you are in a position where you are actually able to affect, or trying to affect, the situation you hate, then you have to put your emotions on a leash. I thought he was a person in a position of power.

I doubt it, you are human and I hope that when you get angry at something, so angry you go against all the social barriers, all the hate you might get, because you believe something so strongly (and I must stress !!have observable evidence!! for it, don't try and twist my words) that you just have to act

If it were otherwise, I would just have sat here and let all the slanderous garbage go without saying a word.

[fwellers]

This is true. The U.S. is a good case-in-point.

Well, they definitely have too much say already, and we're trying to keep them from gaining total control, as they seem to have in too many arab countries already.

[Fullcrum]

Interesting.

There's a lot of hate in this thread. I'm surprised - this is a growth related forum.

I guess the haters in this thread have allowed themselves to react against the US media's "Political correctness" and fly totally the other way. You're not thinking for yourselves, you're just reacting against what you perceive as external forces. It's difficult, but you have to think for yourselves! Really consciously consider why you think you hate Islam so much.

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by Fullcrum

Interesting.

There's a lot of hate in this thread. I'm surprised - this is a growth related forum.

I guess the haters in this thread have allowed themselves to react against the US media's "Political correctness" and fly totally the other way. You're not thinking for yourselves, you're just reacting against what you perceive as external forces. It's difficult, but you have to think for yourselves! Really consciously consider why you think you hate Islam so much.

well, for me, hate is a strong word, but I pretty much know why I have no use for ANY of the judeo/christian religions. Then again, I pretty much reject all kinds of authority, and anything that sets itself up as an authority is already on my ♥♥♥♥♥ list.

[Fullcrum]

I wasn't talking to you with a viewpoint like that, though I'd recommend that instead of putting things on your "♥♥♥♥♥ list" you simply stay present and grounded and not judge people for their decisions. But whatever.

I'm talking to the people slandering Islam. I'm asking them to think for themselves and not just follow "counterculture social conditioning" and to just "believe everything that goes against popular beliefs" without really looking into the issue.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by Fullcrum

you simply stay present and grounded and not judge people

This is how I want to be, and so to stop getting angry about things.

[Akashic_Librarian]

The guy is not a one man army bent on the destruction of Islam, he just says what we are all too scared to say! He is against all of the religions, why? Well he says why...because they are ridiculous. That culture, that is the culture of Islam, is a backward culture...it is backward. Its violent, people get stoned to death, hands get chopped off and you are telling me that I have to understand they are really peaceful and nice people? Sorry but when thats your background culture I can't trust you, not at all.

[Brutha]

Cultures are not homogenious.
Most Muslims that life in the UK aren't for stoning people to death and chopping hands off.

In addition stoning people to death is not that much more horrible than shocking people electrically to death or doing whatever they do or don't do in Guantano to people.
Do you judge the next American that you meet for that background culture?

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Its violent, people get stoned to death, hands get chopped off

So cite your sources, provide examples of this practice in every Muslim country. How many stonings have occured in Tunisia, in Libya, in Egypt recently? How many people have had their hands chopped off in Algeria? Those things would be widely reported on Western news, because it would be a great opportunity to vilify the perceived enemy of the West. If you are using these arguments to justify hatred, then you must be able to point out the validity of the arguments, otherwise you will just be hating on a whim, and no rational (hu)man would ever do that...right?

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

and you are telling me that I have to understand they are really peaceful and nice people?

You can understand whatever you want to, and you really are, against all rational logic.

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Sorry but when thats your background culture I can't trust you, not at all.

You don't have to trust them, no one said anything about trusting them. But propogating lies and using the lies as a basis for hating them and spreading this same hate and animosity...you become what you hate.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

he just says what we are all too scared to say!

Um, count me out of that all, ok? Thanks.

[Akashic_Librarian]

I don't lie. Bitsy, to just briefly demonstrate where Sharia law is given respect (laughably) I quote Wikipedia:

"Most countries of the Middle East and North Africa maintain a dual system of secular courts and religious courts, in which the religious courts mainly regulate marriage and inheritance. Saudi Arabia and Iran maintain religious courts for all aspects of jurisprudence, and religious police assert social compliance. Laws derived from sharia are also applied in Afghanistan, Libya and Sudan. Some states in northern Nigeria have reintroduced Sharia courts.[67] In practice the new Sharia courts in Nigeria have most often meant the re-introduction of harsh punishments without respecting the much tougher rules of evidence and testimony. The punishments include amputation of one/both hands for theft and stoning for adultery and apostasy."

Thank you, and good night.

Now as for this, this makes me sick: "Islamic scholars argue that, if implemented properly, the punishments serve as a deterrent to crime" The sipposed learned ones in that society, the ones who essentially sit by our government and make sure we don't do anything but what they want, suggest that we should chop peoples hands off, and stone them to death, and behead them, and hang them. Just last month two boys where hanged for being homosexual. Is that the system your trying to defend Bitsy, because if that is...then what is wrong with you?

Another example of the viral infestation that this religion is invested in: "A bill proposed by lawmakers in the Indonesian province of Aceh would impose Sharia law on all non-Muslims, the armed forces and law enforcement officers, a local police official has announced. The news comes two months after the Deutsche Presse-Agentur warned of "Taliban-style Islamic police terrorizing Indonesia's Aceh" ".

Finally a prominent "Islamic Jurist" states that:

"It must be understood that when we claim that Islam has a satisfactory solution for every problem in any situation in all times to come, we do not mean that the Holy Quran and Sunna of the Holy Prophet or the rulings of Islamic scholars provide a specific answer to each and every minute detail of our socioeconomic life. What we mean is that the Holy Quran and the Holy Sunna of the Prophet have laid down the broad principles in the light of which the scholars of every time have deduced specific answers to the new situations arising in their age. Therefore, in order to reach a definite answer about a new situation the scholars of Shariah have to play a very important role. They have to analyze every question in light of the principles laid down by the Holy Quran and Sunna as well as in the light of the standards set by earlier jurists enumerated in the books of Islamic jurisprudence. This exercise is called Istinbat or Ijtihad. ... [T]he ongoing process of Istinbat keeps injecting new ideas, concepts and rulings into the heritage of Islamic jurisprudence."

So in effect every problem the world encounters, ignore common sense, ignore looking a the situation as a unique thing, but rather refer to an ancient, barabraic and primitive fairytale based on an outdated culture and system of values. Sounds respectable and peaceful to me.

Islam is comparable to a mentally retarded child. Simple as that. It does not acknowledge multi-faiths as being acceptable. It does not acknowledge anything other than militant straight men and women, and actually encourages little girls being married to older men for the sake of family respect. Honour killings are ever increasing in my country, as are the constant visits to "uncles" who happen to also give unanethatised vasectomies to little girls.

The religion ignores the modern world, and as a result births ignorant people from it. people who think that service to God is more important than service to your fellow man. People who are shamed should they marry an "Unbeliever" and people who hire people to kill thier brothers and sisters for going against "god".

I don't know about you, but I didn't make things up there, I didn't spread hate, and I didn't insinuate anything other than the obvious facts that the fundamental core of that religion, its rules and basic principles are dogmatic, childish and frankly mentally retarded.

[Bitsy]

You have no examples, no firsthand experience of Muslim people to recount, no grasp of the reality of average daily life in many Muslim countries, and you don't believe a person who has the latter two. Thank you, and good night.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Actually my school is pretty much half-muslim. My town (Halifax) has a large muslim population, my mom, a police officer, has had dealings with them from all walks of like, the nice ones who keep there religion private and unopressive (Perfect examples of how you should treat belief) and the down-right (more predominant) ignorant ones who simply mock our laws in favour of their own religious ones, and fail to acknowledge other peoples rights to beliefs.

If you think, Bitsy, that Muslims are peaceful, law-abiding people who quietly get on with life then where have you been? Under a rock...don't make me laugh honestly. Its not a nice religion.