No wonder nobody likes US

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I don't even know what to say. WTH?!

Careless Detention | Some Detainees Are Drugged For Deportation (washingtonpost.com)

[Dan.Linehan]

Dissociative drugs are bad news.

Feeling down?! Depressed? Eat these!! You won't be able to care less no matter what's going on!

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I had a relative who actually was mentally disabled and Ativan messed her ish up. I don't think she was ever on Haldol, but she was on anti-psychotic meds. Seeing what they did to someone who actually had the issues they are supposed to treat did nothing to put me at ease about their efficacy. I can't imagine the effect they would have on a neurotypical person.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I can't imagine the effect they would have on a neurotypical person.

This is a good read.

Psychiatric medications, of course, are well known to cause extremely violent thoughts and behavior in young males. This is actually acknowledged by the FDA and is found in the black-box warnings printed on the packaging for such drugs. In Europe, the prescribing of many such drugs to children and teens is actually illegal. But in the United States, where psychiatric medications have become the "new medicine" for American youth, nobody seems to pay attention to the simple fact that every school shooting we've seen in the last decade has been committed by a young male with a history of treatment with psychiatric medications.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

It's just getting ridiculous the amount of stuff we just put in our bodies without really understanding it! Holy hell.

[PianoManGidley]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

It's just getting ridiculous the amount of stuff we just put in our bodies without really understanding it! Holy hell.

And it's because we're looking for some miracle pill to fix every little problem we feel about ourselves, instead of attacking the roots of the problems, which are generally just perception issues.

[Jennihul]

What's wrong with Ativan? It's one of the mildest sedatives on the market.

Just like valium. Mother's little helper? Remember?

Jennifer

[Bitsy]

What an apropos post. I am getting pressured from a lot of people, considering how few there are in my life, to take drugs too and without taking them it is proving very hard for me to find effective help .

[Dan.Linehan]

Try looking for wellness programs in your area.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Jennihul

What's wrong with Ativan? It's one of the mildest sedatives on the market.

Just like valium. Mother's little helper? Remember?

Jennifer

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic, but it turned my aunt into a zombie at a very low dose.

Haldol on the other hand is not mild. In addition, the article states it's being used in these cases in doses higher than the usual limit for treating patients who actually have the conditions it's indicated for.

Regardless of the efficacy or "harmlessness" of the drugs (something I'm far from convinced of), it's wrong to focibly inject someone with anti-psychotic drugs against their will.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

What an apropos post. I am getting pressured from a lot of people, considering how few there are in my life, to take drugs too and without taking them it is proving very hard for me to find effective help .

I'm sorry to hear that Bitsy. I don't know where you are, but are there any social service organizations, like Dan is talking about, that could give you help or point you in the direction of the resources you need?

[Amadeus]

"No wonder nobody likes us". What is your point? It is not the government's job to run a popularity contest around the world. They are here to work for the American people. Your very title seems a little off because if "nobody liked us" then why are they so eager to come over here?

Guess what aspiring, a lot of people do not like people who come or stay in this country illegally. Why wasn't your post titled, " no wonder nobody likes people in the US who are here illegally"? Why don't you address that crime before you address another potential crime? You are assuming that these detainees were being civil to those who were trying to dedain them and send them back. The article even stated that he was "angry".

Frankly I think the US government is being fair. Try going into other countries illegally and see what happens. It would be cheaper for them to lock you up then to fly you back home and some countries would keep you indefinately. Some countries would beat you and maybe more. Why are you and Dan so eager to piss on the American flag every chance you get?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

"No wonder nobody likes us". What is your point? It is not the government's job to run a popularity contest around the world. They are here to work for the American people. Your very title seems a little off because if "nobody liked us" then why are they so eager to come over here?

Frankly I think the US government is being fair. Try going into other countries illegally and see what happens. It would be cheaper for them to lock you up then to fly you back home and some countries would keep you indefinately. Some countries would beat you and maybe more. Why are you and Dan so eager to piss on the American flag every chance you get?

First of all, I have not once "pissed on the American flag." Our country was founded on dissent and freedom. I am proud to live in a country that at least originally intended to provide me with a bevy of rights. What I fail to understand is how proud Americans can sit by and watch our country violate it's most sacred principles even as we criticize the inhumane practices of other nations.

Secondly, the title of this thread has nothing to do with us running a "popularity contest." It is simply a wording taken from conversations I hear everyday lamenting "why do the terrorists hate us?" I would have no problem with the entire world hating our guts if I believed that we were acting with honor and integrity. Being one of the American people, I would assert that the government in this instance is not working for me or anyone like me that finds this practice barbaric. I am wholly against the notion that it is in anyone's best interest to drug foreigners against their will in order to deport them. The argument about what fate would befall me in another country is a staw man. I will not quietly sit by as my country engages in behavior which mirrors the abuses committed against foreigners in other countries. Perhaps I would get beaten in another country for entering illegally. Perhaps I would be jailed indefinitely without charges or trial (sound familiar?). Does that justify the United States applying similar treatment to illegal aliens on our own soil. I don't think so. How is it "fair" to do what we find abhorent in others? Do you think that the people of the US would react favorably to having one of our own citizens forcibly dosed with an anti-psychotic medication in another country in order to facilitate deportation back to the US. I highly doubt it!

Thirdly, many people are eager to come to this country because of the ideals we espouse, and the relative freedom and economic prosperity they can enjoy compared to their place of origin. Does this mean we should stop trying to become even better? Should we lower our standards since other countries haven't set the bar too high? No.

We are engaged in a "war on terror" yet we perpetrate acts that I can only define as terroristic. We infringe on the rights of our own citizens to protect us from the scaries in the world without accepting that much of our own behavior has perpetuated the hatred directed at us. We are daily fed a diet of fear and sensationalism to keep us in line with what our government wants to do. I for one am getting sick. I'm overfed on hatred and self-righteousness. I am looking for another way.

Far from pissing on the American flag, I seek to hold my beautiful country to the standards and ideals that I believe are at our core. We have not yet in practice become what we have the potential to be. As long as we employ tactics better suited to terrorists and dictators, I will continue to express my disdain for what we have allowed ourselves to become. And to hope that we are able to become a nation that stands as a shining example of what a country can really be when integrity is a cherished value.

I fail to see how that's a bad thing.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

Guess what aspiring, a lot of people do not like people who come or stay in this country illegally. Why wasn't your post titled, " no wonder nobody likes people in the US who are here illegally"? Why don't you address that crime before you address another potential crime? You are assuming that these detainees were being civil to those who were trying to dedain them and send them back. The article even stated that he was "angry".

My post expressed my outrage for a particular topic. I don't dislike people who are in this country illegally and so would not make a post with a title like that. In addition, I don't have to address one subject to be allowed to address another one.

As to the charge that the detainees were not being "civil," unless there was physical confrontation, use of an anti-psychotic medication at doses higher than indicated for people with mental disorders is overkill. The article also stated that some detainess were anxious. I would be too if I was being deported to a country where I may face death.

[Amadeus]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to take our government's word over someone who entered into this country illegally (they've proven their immorality from this action alone) and a media outlet who has their own agenda in mind. People are sick of the drive-by media's blantant bias over their reporting and their consistent desire to make and recreate news instead of just reporting the facts. This is why people are flocking to other sources for their news. How can you get up in arms about something that you've only learned by reading? How can believe anything that is on paper? Where you there when they detained these people? Did you see our government inject them with anything? Did you talk to the detainees or the government face to face or by phone? No you just read something that already has a tilted bias towards it. Yes it goes both ways, I don't swallow everything the goverment tells me or what my favorite media outlets tell me because I didn't experience it first hand. Could the goverment have over stepped their boundaries? Maybe, but why are you fast to rush to the defense of known law breakers?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

Maybe, but why are you fast to rush to the defense of known law breakers?

Our own government are known lawbreakers, yet you rush to defend them. They have broken laws. Are they not then just as immoral as "the illegals?" If immorality is a reason to dismiss someone, I'm afraid we'd all be guilty. Not one person can claim infallibility in the standards of the morality of everyone alive. Everyone is always violating some aspect of someone's morality.

Listen, I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, but your posts come close to attacking my character and intelligence which I don't appreciate. I am sure you will say you've done no such thing and that is fine too. I do not swallow everything I read or hear whole. But I am also not so naive as to believe our government innocent and blameless. The very fact that the government may have overstepped it's boundaries is reason enough for me to bring attention to the subject and state my reservations with these practices. Perhaps I can pacify your disgust with me by qualifying my statement thus:

If this is happening, it is sick, wrong, inhumane and needs to stop.

However, in light of the documents the paper obtained regarding this matter, I have little doubt this practice occurred.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

Guess what aspiring, a lot of people do not like people who come or stay in this country illegally.

I don't like it when people come here illegally either. So it makes me wonder when Bush closes down the INS then creates a new department that seem to have zero effective influence in deporting illegal aliens.

It took DHS three years to even write a plan.

Want to solve the immigration issue? Stop giving illegal immigrants jobs.

Anytime someone starts a new job they have to fill out a W-4 Form. Crosscheck those forms with fraudulent data, fine the companies that are employing illegal aliens, and deport the illegal immigrants.

It's a very simple process. It's just one that the Bush administration doesn't really want to do.

Maybe you should be asking more questions Amadeus.


The questions are these:

1. Immigration policy either isn't being enforced by the DHS or its being selectively enforced. Why?

2. Who approved these methods as acceptable for use when deporting an illegal alien? Why?


The article ATC linked to says nothing about whether deportation is right or wrong. Any number of sources can tell you that all countries have immigration policies that need to be enforced. That obviously doesn't mean you use illegal or inhumane methods to do the enforcement.


On a side note, I'm incredulous that we even have a Department called "Homeland Security." The overtones there are obvious.

"Races without homelands”, Hitler proclaimed, were “parasitic races”, and the richer the members of a parasitic race were, the more virulent the parasitism was said to be. A master race could therefore, according to the Nazi doctrine, easily strengthen itself by eliminating parasitic races from its homeland.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Anytime someone starts a new job they have to fill out a W-4 Form. Crosscheck those forms with fraudulent data, fine the companies that are employing illegal aliens, and deport the illegal immigrants.

The I-9 form is intended to determine a person's eligibility to work in the US.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I would be too if I was being deported to a country where I may face death.

True story. It would be interesting to put some sort of follow-up program in place to see what happens to those who are deported.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

True story. It would be interesting to put some sort of follow-up program in place to see what happens to those who are deported.

I wonder how effective it could be considering their own coutries, if they are intent on imprisioning or killing them, would not be forthcoming with information.

[schola]

The illegal immigration justification is a lie.

They are drugging and deporting people from the Congo who marry and start a family - all in the name of stopping illegal immigration...but we have a wide open border to the south of us that the Federal Government has done nothing about.

It's all very sad. I think the title of this thread is appropriate.

[Ponce]

What would the US do if China, Iran or Russia had some ships 10 miles from the US coast?........ what would the US do if China were to invade Mexico and take over?......... or Russia Canada? and how would the people of those countries react to the invasion?

The US invaded Iraq and they are defending themselves and then the US escaletes the war under the excuse of "We have to defend ourselves", why hell , if you were to hit me do you really expect me to do nothing?

Take Palestine and the state of Israel, the IDF keeps on escalating the attacks on the Palestinian people because of the "missiles" going into the state of Israel....... well, why are the missiles going into the state of Israel?...... could it be that it is because the state of Israel keeps on stealing land from the Palestinians and destroying their home and trees?... interesting that no one mentions this.

We all know that the US sooner or later will have to leave the Middle East as they did in Viet Nam.......is a loose loose war.

And now we want to invade Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan and so on.......with what? no troops and no equipment.......start a nuclear war? I don't think so.

[Amadeus]

Ponce the US will never leave Iraq in the long run. We still have tens of thousands of soldiers over in Europe even though WW2 has been over for 50 plus years. It is not in our interest to leave the Middle East. It is strategicially brilliant to be over there when it comes to our oil interest, defending Israel, military base close to China, etc. etc.

Legally we had every right to "liberate" (not invade you flamming liberals) Iraq. Where you all born the first time Saddam invaded Kuwait? We went in there and liberated Kuwait and told Saddam he could stay in power if he obeyed a few rules. He signed that UN agreement and instead broke over 12 UN resolutions. So we had every right to go back in there.

China by the way is only a few miles off our cost drilling for oil via Cuba. Of course we don't have the right to drill on our own land because of the environment. Sure hundreds of thousands of people will eventually starve to death because of these regulations, but we want to make sure Al Gore and his croonies get their way. Which reminds me, why on earth is Al Gore like 300 pounds? How much carbon footprint does it take to feed his carcus and fuel his private jet anyway?

[escapee]

All empires must fall. US will be forced to leave Iraq when the dollar crisis deepens abruptly. ( eg: Non-US entities start dumping large amount of depreciating dollars and requesting only Euro for international transaction).

US is borrowing 3 billions + each day from foreigners to finance its massive current account deficit and the war machine in middle east. This will not go on forever.

[Amadeus]

Empires fall differently and we are in a new era. No doubt China will surpass us as the World's global consumers, but I say who cares. They have 1.4 billion people and we only have 300 million. We shouldn't expect any less from them. We have the land that goes on for eons, remarkable technology, developed infrastructure, decent civilization, and some very smart people over here. "Fall" is a very inadequate word in my opinion. Maybe you should use the word "step aside".

[escapee]

Historians in the future, maybe 100 years from now will definitely prefer to use the words "fall of empire" rather than "Empire step aside".

China may be the political oppressor of their own people, but given what they had gone through in the past century, I don't see how they will be into the game of empire building by bombing other nations under false pretense and establishing military bases all over the world to exert military and financial influence.

No more empire building also means less "terrorism", more money spent on domestic construction rather destruction (oversea) and more civil liberty. The fall of American empire is good thing for the citizens of US and the world. I think we should all be grateful of a day where the world is freed of empire building.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

He signed that UN agreement and instead broke over 12 UN resolutions.

Wait, do we or don't we care what the UN has to say?

We have broken the Geneva Convention too. It would be justified for someone to invade us then as well?

We only care about the rules of international organizations when they agree with our agenda.

We are not justified.

[Dave Kaminski]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Wait, do we or don't we care what the UN has to say?

We have broken the Geneva Convention too. It would be justified for someone to invade us then as well?

We only care about the rules of international organizations when they agree with our agenda.

We are not justified.

Exactly. This is why I'm curious as to Amadeus' opposition to someone "pissing on the flag" as he likes to say. At least then those people are being honest about where they stand, instead of lying to the faces of the 6.5 billion humans that make up the world's population.

[Dan.Linehan]

Just to go back to my point about the complete ineffectiveness of the DHS in their task of deporting illegal immigrants, I read this article today:

Federal Bust: Immigration Raid Reveals Meth Lab At Nation's Largest Kosher Meat Plant

There were 697 warrants and 389 arrests.

Weren't there any indications that illegal immigration might be an issue at this place before there were 697 warrants to serve?

You know, maybe a couple years ago when, "In 2005 PETA released hidden video footage of inhumane practices within this same Postville facility."

Or the year after that when, "in 2006, the company was fined $600,000 for environmental damages caused by raw sewage released in the area."

No? Nobody knew that 80% of the plant's employees were illegal immigrants? Nobody knew that they were manufacturing meth there? Nobody knew they were polluting the waters in the area with God knows what?

Do you have any idea how many people in that town will end up getting cancer from drinking that water? How many kids will end up getting Leukemia? And they sure won't have medical insurance because there aren't any jobs in town...

@ Amadeus, you still think it's Liberals who are pissing on the flag here?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

You know, Dan, I think that you and I have different views on illegal immigration. However, I would say it's definitely a failure on the part of companies that results in that many illegal aliens working at one facility. If they were requiring proper documentation at the time of hire, they could weed out a lot of illegal aliens. It seems the companies are more interested in the bottom line (or just lazy). You can pay illegal aliens less and often they do not have the knowledge or resources to fight against poor working conditions, inhumane treatment or substandard wages.