Should students be required to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance?

[schola]

3 suspended for not standing for Pledge of Allegiance

Three small-town eighth-graders in Minnesota were suspended by their principal for not standing Thursday morning for the Pledge of Allegiance, violating a district policy that the principal now says may soon be reworded to protect free speech rights.

What do you think about this? The Pledge was not something I seriously thought about until after I graduated high school. It was just something we said every morning. Their were a few people in my classes who refused to stand as well. I thought they were silly at the time, but I also thought the Pledge of Allegiance was somewhat silly.

But recently I've wondered whether it is proper to pledge allegiance to A FLAG. What inherent properties does our flag have that make something like that necessary?

Of course there has been debate in recent years about whether it is proper to include the words "under God" in the pledge. But maybe we should consider whether The Pledge itself is proper.

When I did some research, I discovered some intriguing facts about our pledge of allegiance:


It was written in 1892, and was not officially recognized by the United States until 1945.

The Pledge was originally written to help promote a flag selling campaign by a magazine looking to boost subscriptions.

It was written by Francis Bellamy, a military socialist.

The original salute for The Pledge was very similar to the Nazi salute: http://members.arstechnica.com/x/xai...llegiance2.jpg

The words "under God" were not added until 1952.

Sources:
Pledge of Allegiance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Francis Bellamy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Chapter Three: American Socialists and Reformers


Back to the article, what do you think? Should students be compelled to stand and recite the pledge with their hand over their hearts? Is it good and necessary? Silly but harmless? Or even dangerous?

The pledge seems like a form of idolatry to me, and it seems ironic that the concept was created and promoted by a Baptist minister.

I think any form of blind patriotism is dangerous, whether it is allegiance to a state, or a flag.

What say you?

[Tasaio]

Of course not. Here in Canada, we scrapped the Lord's Prayer and Pledge to the Queen years ago.

But when I look back on all the times I had to express "patriotism" at school...I accept it, and consciously decide to move on. So little makes sense about the current education system that the Pledge of Allegiance is just scratching the surface.

[Honeywith4bees]

Originally Posted by schola

I think any form of blind patriotism is dangerous, whether it is allegiance to a state, or a flag.

I completely agree. When my two older boys were younger, and in a public elementary school, the entire school had "morning meeting" outside gathered around the flag pole every morning. They began with the pledge, then the music teacher led them in a patriotic song, then they had morning announcements. I loved the way the school felt like such a community at that time. Parents were encouraged to stay with their kids and participate in the ritual. However, I felt strongly about my 7 and 5 year old "Pledging their allegiance" when they didn't even understand what the word "allegiance" meant. I encouraged them to stand and place their hands over their hearts but to "meditate" instead. (Of course we didn't call it meditation because they wouldn't have really understood that either.) I felt like this compromise would not be disrespectful to the others yet still be respectful to our own values.

[PianoManGidley]

I agree that the pledge should be optional. There's too much internal conflict in our nation right now--people should have the right to voice, in any civil way, their disagreement with the way the nation is currently being run. I don't know if that's what these 8th graders had on their minds, but I DO know that children are smarter than most people give them credit for. They're not hurting anyone by sitting and staying silent throughout the pledge. I'm in the same boat as others--I did it blindly while in school, because it was something taught to us to do, and we weren't really taught to consider the meaning behind it. But then, I've changed a LOT in my views of the nation since I graduated high school as well.

[fwellers]

The subjection of men to government will always continue as long as patriotism exists, for every ruling power rests on patriotism — on the readiness of men to submit to power.
Leo Tolstoy

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.
—Albert Einstein

Nationalism may have had it's place in the past, but the way I see it, the world is beyond that now, and I think Nationalism is probably more of a hindrance to progress than anything.

I stopped saying the pledge of allegience in probably 9th or 10th trade, which was back in the 70's, and have never once said it since.

Also, if I am ever asked to testify in court, I'll not put my hand on a bible and swear an oath. If my answer of Yes I will tell the truth, isn't good enough, then F*&k-em.

[Jennihul]

I think it's a quaint little habit that really means nothing in the context of the world today.

So my answer would be no.

Jennifer

[nvictor]

Yes.

It's may not mean anything, but it's a way of teaching kids what "respect" means.
A little respect and this world can change drastically.

[PianoManGidley]

Originally Posted by nvictor

Yes.

It's may not mean anything, but it's a way of teaching kids what "respect" means.
A little respect and this world can change drastically.

First off, it may not mean anything to you, but it certainly means something to others. Secondly, there's a difference between respect and blind submission.

[nvictor]

I replied after reading Jennifer's post.

I don't think it's blind submission, and that it's a way of showing respect, but I lack proper explanation. I just know that I have done so during my childhood, and in several countries because of war in the many countries I have been in... I stood up before class every morning for people who fought to bring peace where I was able to study.

It wasn't really a country thing, it wasn't really patriotism, it wasn't submission. I guess it's something I cannot explain.

[Marco Polo]

If anything it seems like a nice tradition that brings some formality and structure to the day. Apart from that, I'm not sure how much it's worth.

If you don't feel the allegiance in your heart, then what's the point?

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by nvictor

It's may not mean anything, but it's a way of teaching kids what "respect" means.
A little respect and this world can change drastically.

You can't teach kids respect by disrespecting their choices. While it does sound like these kids hadn't put much thought into it, it was still their choice to not participate. I'd rather see those choices honored, than false patriotism coerced. Having said that, if the kids knew that not standing was breaking the rules, they should be willing to face the consequences of their actions.

[koke616]

I remember, as far back as preschool I would only mouth it and in my head I'd think to myself "blah blah blah this is so stupid god doesn't exist blah blah no i do not pledge allegiance shut up blah".

Heh, I was an angry little kid. I can't help but feel a weird sense of pride that thats how I initially reacted at 4 years old.

[Trezker]

Well, since it contains the words "under god" I think it discriminates against atheists and other non monotheistic beliefs.

Rewording it won't make a difference. The only way to honor free speech is to remove all requirements to say anything at all.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I don't think children should be forced to pledge the flag. In fact, I think blind nationalism in general causes more problems than it solves.

[Lauxa]

I am generally against public education. I don't care too much what the public schools do because my kids will not be in them.

[Brutha]

I am generally against public education. I don't care too much what the public schools do because my kids will not be in them.

As long as you have to interact with people on a daily basis that are educated in public schools it matter what happens in public schools.
If you have a majority of patriotes in a nation you get another reaction to certain political candicats then when you don't have many people who feel patriotic.

[Dannyboy1]

I'd rather them say a pledge like, "I pledge an allegiance to constant learning. I pledge to constantly grow the rest of my life. I pledge to work, to understand and command my emotions, to constantly strive to make the world a better place, to help my fellow man, and to leave my mark by making my country and the world a better place." As it is, the pledge now vows blind allegiance. It says, "For which it stands", but it doesn't say what it stands for. It should have more about taking part in improving our country, not just to follow it blindly. Kids at that age don't even understand what it means. Liberty and Justice for all is nice, but kind of broad.

Don't just pledge allegiance to the country. Pledge to make it better. If you're not growing, you're dying. You want to make the world better? Make them want to make it better. They are our future leaders.

[Marco Polo]

Dannyboy1 ftw.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Marco Polo

Dannyboy1 ftw.

What's ftw?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

What's ftw?

For the win. He agrees with you!

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

For the win. He agrees with you!

Thanks!

I wish schools would focus on that kind of thing. I think if you teach them a love of learning and a desire to make the world better, it's more important than much of the syllabus they have now.

[Barcs]

Dang it, Dannyboy. I was about to say virtually the same thing. I couldn't agree more.

Kids these days need to be taught to be open minded, tolerant, and to question everything, EVEN your own government if necessary. That is how freedom is maintained. NOT BY blindly pledging your allegiance to your country day in and day out in the same monotonous boring way. Requiring that is borderline fascist if you ask me. If you think about it, it's really nothing more than brainwashing the youth into blind submission.