Should students be required to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance?

[Dave Kaminski]

Please, don't assume my answers to these questions if I have not answered them.

You're putting words into my mouth and then stating you don't know how I think, so at least you're aware of your folly. I will address the questions this evening, but let it be known that just because you say something that you imagine is my view does not make it so.

Thanks for your patience!

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

You weren't talking to me, but I usually butt in with my opinion anyway.

I don't think aggression is ever the right thing to do. It may sometimes be the only option except death (ie when someone has a gun to your head) but I don't think it's something righteous in other circumstances.

Aspiring I get a certain vibe from you. What I mean is that I see what you say but that the more you say it the more I realize that you don't think so differently.

Its almost as if you first instinct is to write what you think you should say but then when questioned further you speak from the heart.

For example, do you think its OK to harm someone who is harming your neighbor next door? Do you think its OK to defend yourself if someone breaks into your home?

From my experiences reading what you say I think you'd be OK with both points. However in your jerk reaction you used the work "ever".

You see Dave really means "ever" but I don't think that you do.

Set me straight.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

Aspiring I get a certain vibe from you. What I mean is that I see what you say but that the more you say it the more I realize that you don't think so differently.

Its almost as if you first instinct is to write what you think you should say but then when questioned further you speak from the heart.

For example, do you think its OK to harm someone who is harming your neighbor next door? Do you think its OK to defend yourself if someone breaks into your home?

From my experiences reading what you say I think you'd be OK with both points. However in your jerk reaction you used the work "ever".

You see Dave really means "ever" but I don't think that you do.

Set me straight.

I meant "ever." Not right ever, but understandable. I am not really sure if that explains it.

Do I think that it's okay to defend myself or a neighbor whose house is broken into? Well, I would first try any other method besides violence to fix the situation. In addition, if I felt that the last resort, other than myself or a loved one/neighbor getting killed, was some type of aggression, I would employ the least amount of aggression necessary to disarm the perpetrator. It would have to be imminent danger. A gun drawn and aimed or an assult in progress. Someone just in my home, not at all.

[Brutha]

Whats the difference between a soldier and someone who goes out and shoots up kids at a school? Are you just trying to be shocking here?

No, we are takling about the difference between someone who voted Republican and someone who shoots kids up at a school

Let do another thought experiment.
You see someone running with a run into a school.
Someone asks you for your mobile phone because he wants to call the policy.
You give him your mobile phone and he calls the police.
The police come to the school and shoot the person with the gun and he dies.
Are you a murderer because your actions resulted in his death?

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by Dave Kaminski

Please, don't assume my answers to these questions if I have not answered them.

You're putting words into my mouth and then stating you don't know how I think, so at least you're aware of your folly. I will address the questions this evening, but let it be known that just because you say something that you imagine is my view does not make it so.

Thanks for your patience!

You had said that it would be wrong to defend Kuwait when they were invaded by Iraq didn't you? You also said that you would die rather than to protect yourself in the name of peace. This isn't your exact quote but this is exactly your meaning. I think its noble.

I am not knocking you about your principles in this particular instance I am simply using it to show Aspiring that the belief system is different.

I dont think I've made any wild assumptions here.

Again, I applaud you for willing to die for your beliefs in non violence. Not many people have that courage.

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by Brutha

No, we are takling about the difference between someone who voted Republican and someone who shoots kids up at a school

Let do another thought experiment.
You see someone running with a run into a school.
Someone asks you for your mobile phone because he wants to call the policy.
You give him your mobile phone and he calls the police.
The police come to the school and shoot the person with the gun and he dies.
Are you a murderer because your actions resulted in his death?

The posts I've been exchanging with Dave were not about voting Republican. It was about his position that all military people are murderers.

The experiment you gave proves my point exactly. I do not think you'd be a murderer at all. Just like I don't think lawyers who defend someone who may or may not have been guilty are murderers even when the person they defended ends up killing again.

Brutha, as usual I don't think you grasp my position. I really don't see where we disagree.

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I meant "ever." Not right ever, but understandable. I am not really sure if that explains it.

Do I think that it's okay to defend myself or a neighbor whose house is broken into? Well, I would first try any other method besides violence to fix the situation. In addition, if I felt that the last resort, other than myself or a loved one/neighbor getting killed, was some type of aggression, I would employ the least amount of aggression necessary to disarm the perpetrator. It would have to be imminent danger. A gun drawn and aimed or an assult in progress. Someone just in my home, not at all.

I took the general tone of your previous writings and deduced that you probably didn't really mean "ever".

I am not really sure if you and I really disagree about anything. You tell me.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

I took the general tone of your previous writings and deduced that you probably didn't really mean "ever".

I am not really sure if you and I really disagree about anything. You tell me.

I can't be sure. I don't think it's right to ever kill someone. I'd prefer it never happen and I would avoid it at all costs save the life of myself or someone close to me. Actually, even a stranger would receive my help if someone was attempting to harm them, but in any case, deadly force would not be the first effort.

I'm not really sure how to explain it any other way. I think ideally I'd like to move toward Dave's position.

You had a real problem with Dave calling soldiers murderers. I really didn't. I think if we are on US soil and being invaded and we fight back, it is understood. But when we go around the world on the offensive we kill people...lots of them completely innocent. How is that not murder?

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

You had a real problem with Dave calling soldiers murderers. I really didn't.

Dave's position is that ALL people who are in the military are murderers. He also said "I have NO RESPECT for anyone in the military".

When I argued with him over those comments you chimed in and said "I'm tired of people who think that if you are against war you have no respect for military people" This showed that you weren't reading carefully his comments.

I am against war, I am against killing but I am also against calling ALL Military people murders.

I really don't think you understand my position fully, nor Dave's.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

I really don't think you understand my position fully, nor Dave's.

Yeah, I guess I'm just one of those dumb Americans.

[Still Growing]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Yeah, I guess I'm just one of those dumb Americans.

No, you seem smart to me...

Maybe I'm not doing a good job of expressing my viewpoints. Communication is a two way street and its as important to understand as to be understood.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

No, you seem smart to me...

Maybe I'm not doing a good job of expressing my viewpoints. Communication is a two way street and its as important to understand as to be understood.

I was just being silly.

It's not that I don't understand your position and Dave's position, it's just that I guess I am not really sure precisely where I stand. On the one hand, I don't think violence is ever necessary or justified. On the other I can certainly see self-defense as understandable and defense of others in mortal danger justifiable.

At the same time, I don't think we should be taking the offensive in other countries. But, I would like to see us do something about the genocide in Africa for example. But what? That's where the problem lies. I believe we should be a force for good in the world and ideally I believe it can be done without violence, but how?

I know soldiers. I know that in their hearts (these specific men I know) they don't intend to hurt anyone, they are disturbed by the death and destruction they saw. But at the same time, they feel this is the only way to solve certain things. Like it's just a fact of life and so they take on that duty. That's why I can respect them. Because I know that they are doing it with a good heart -- they truly in their deepest heart and mind think that this is the only solution and that it's honorable to be a part of it. I also know that there are some soldiers who get off on killing and yeah, they are murderers in my mind. It's a deep philosophical discussion to get into what matters in this case, intent or end result. I'm not sure I have the chops or the certainty for that discussion.

I think I am somewhere in the middle and can see both sides and agree with points on both alternately. Maybe I just haven't cemented my position.

I get angry when I see other people hurt, but I don't see how more violence will end it. The violence (anger) in my mind makes me just like the person I am angry at, does it not? Just like when a kid bites his little buddy. Me biting him in turn isn't going to teach him not to bite. You know?

Does it make any sense at all?

[ThoughtAddict]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I get angry when I see other people hurt, but I don't see how more violence will end it. The violence (anger) in my mind makes me just like the person I am angry at, does it not? Just like when a kid bites his little buddy. Me biting him in turn isn't going to teach him not to bite. You know?

Does it make any sense at all?

Yes. It sounds like you agree with imminent self-defense and defense of others (the use of a small amount of violence to prevent larger amounts of violence which can be prevented no other way). It also sounds like you oppose retribution and deterrence. It isn't that the use of violence is a good thing, but the person isn't morally blameworthy even if the defensive violence itself is. The situation creates a form of coercion...

At least, that's what it sounds like you're saying to me. I'm not sure if I've got it right on whether the person is morally blameworthy.

If not, I'm curious about your position on whether a person is morally blameworthy for putting themselves into a position where that coercion exists. For example, if I hang out with someone knowing they intend to murder me, and I could just as easily leave, is my use of force still understandable? If I join the military and then have to use force to defend myself, is that use of force still understandable?

Also, ATC, don't be hard on yourself. I don't have the certainty for this conversation, either. My father thought he had it figured out... until he returned visibly traumatized by his experiences in Iraq. It is difficult, I think, being in the center rather than on an extreme. You recognize that there isn't an easy answer, which is a pretty aware place to be.

[Dave Kaminski]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

I asked if you saw your neighbor about to be harmed if you'd protect them and I can see that your answer is "No". I can also see that even if your death was eminent that you would not even protect yourself. Thats your right and I respect your bravery to stick to your beliefs even when it will cost you your life.

I imagine I would defend them, and myself, to the death; I would debilitate but I would avoid as much as possible, killing. Might I die? Sure. Might they die? Sure. Either way I won't see it as a mistake; I will see MYSELF in a different light, though.

Originally Posted by Still Growing

I guess I'm much more primal. I realize that we're not only beings with principals but in the end we're like animals fighting for our survival of ourselves, our loved ones and our species. I can see that you disagree with that.

Survival might have competition involved, but it doesn't have to be fighting. Competitive cooperation is possible - see who can do the best job at x. It's still contribution, and competitive, but not fighting.

Originally Posted by Still Growing

If you ever have a child or love someone deeply who is about to be killed you may be surprised by your actions. I think instinct may kick in if fear doesn't overwhelm you.

Here's the thing and also why I'm willing to risk my own life - they're all supposed to be loved ones. We all make mistakes; we're all flawed. How can I not call them my brother or sister if we're made of the same things?

Is everyone equal? I've found this isn't the case. Is anyone perfect? No. We're all just a summation of where our choices have taken us.

Originally Posted by Still Growing

I am not a war monger and I'm not for us going into Iraq but being someone who is not such an extreme pacifist I guess I just extend levity to soldiers and I don't see them as murders. If I had known the extreme nature of your position maybe I could see how you could call all military service people murderers.

The more you speak Dave the more I am interested to know about how you think. I'm being honest, its really interesting. I'm not being fecisous.

Thanks. I'm interested to know how I think, too; that's a big part of my participation in these conversations. Truth through persistent observation and questioning.

[Andrew Brunelle]

I don't think anyone should have to do something they don't feel they want to do. It's just another one of those lies the education system tells you to keep you complacent. That "land of the free, home of the brave" stuff is just a complete waste of time and takes away from real learning.

After the Patriot Act, they ought to take out that whole "Liberty and justice for all" quote.

[Ninja]

I've seen video's of little kids droning the pledge. It always creeped me out, especially because god is included. Sounds almost cultish.

[Dave Kaminski]

That is because US society is largely a very well masked cult (or at least an 'established' cult)

There is a strong leader, usually admired with fevered devotion (president)
Keeps members isolated, keeps outside influence away to lessen doubt (news)
Claim exclusive access to god's will (malls, cheaply made goods, bans on sodomy)
Control & destroy lives through edict of personal lives (psychology of television, immersion in advertisements)
Commit ritualistic murder (perpetual warring)