Is going Green anti-Universal abundance?

[Cantando]

I like to think there is infinite abundance in the universe and there is plenty of everything for everyone. However, I started a new job 3 months ago and they are very keen on saving. Staff go around switching off lights, computers and coffee machines when they are not in use. It’s not worth trying to get anything out of the stationery cupboard as you have to go through a load of admin just to get a paper clip.

My question is: how does a belief in universal abundance square up with green issues, saving energy and reducing pollution?

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by Cantando

I like to think there is infinite abundance in the universe and there is plenty of everything for everyone. However, I started a new job 3 months ago and they are very keen on saving. Staff go around switching off lights, computers and coffee machines when they are not in use. It’s not worth trying to get anything out of the stationery cupboard as you have to go through a load of admin just to get a paper clip.

My question is: how does a belief in universal abundance square up with green issues, saving energy and reducing pollution?

Kinda curious how one gets a theory of universal abundance, when it's obvious the earth's natural resources are limited. Maybe there's more 'abundance' somewhere else in the universe, but here on earth, there is only so much.

[Dave Kaminski]

That theory goes more along the lines with abundance for needs and not wants, imho.

People are portrayed in history as having isolated interests. When you hear about people, they were a carpenter or a cobbler or a baker. These people would invest their time and money into their craft, and there was plenty of abundance. Bakers had enough with which to bake, and carpenters had enough with which to build.

Now that people are much more multifaceted (read: wasteful) in their endeavours, there is a lot of wasted, unused product and material. Things are much more openly and widely disposable than they used to be.

[Mags]

@Cantando: I think it depends on your intention behind your actions. In this case, a scarcity mentality and abundance mentality would produce the same action (e.g. switching off lights) yet with very different intentions. The scarcity mentality would focus on things like worrying over the electricity bill, and worrying about current energy sources running out, or worrying about paying extra tax on non-green companies. The abundance mentality on the other hand would know with certainty that the world's energy needs will always be fulfilled (either through current sources or alternative sources that are being developed), and yet this person would still switch off the lights because living in the present means accepting responsibility for caring for the earth as it exists right now and hence not abusing the resources that are available right now.

@fwellers: Part of what I just wrote answers your question on the theory of universal abundance. There will always be enough fuel/energy. Right now, we use fossil fuels. By the time these are depleted, we will have alternative sources of energy. Possibly, by that time, we will even have located a friendly alien society who will help us with energy ... my point is, who knows what exactly our future energy sources will be; however, we will always have our energy needs met in some way. That's universal abundance!

[Barcs]

I do not think that going green is ANTI- universal abundance as you put it. Yes there are tons and tons of particles of matter and energy sources in the universe, but you can't really think of that on a universal level, at least not yet, because we are currently limited to earth, which is already over populated IMO and still increasing at an insane rate (we're supposed to hit 9 billion in about 20 years if we don't kill ourselves off first). Every known resource on earth is either finite or not that effecient yet (or suppressed), so I do not believe in the universal abundance theory. Going green is necessary right now until we develope alternative energy sources. If we lived off of nature and families all over the world didn't pop out 5+ kids (who in turn pop out 5+ kids)none of this would be a problem. Is it really a big deal to turn off a light when you leave a room? My father taught me that well, so I do that at work as well. I figured every little bit helps and if more people were on the same page, it wouldn't be something that's necessary now. Yeah the government and big corporations are mostly to blame, but all the little people can make a difference as well.

[ogrekilleat]

I think this question stems from a common misconception, which is that we don't need to take care of what we already have.

True, there's probably more out there--whether we're talking about energy sources, or places to live, or cars, or whatever--but if you don't take care of what you have, you're sending the message that you don't value it--and if you don't value it, why would you want more?

[Angela]

I believe that who we are is unlimited abundance, and that we have everything we could ever want or need now.

I also believe that appreciating who we are, and expanding more and more into the unlimited power and abundance of who we are, is why we're here. Part of appreciating and expanding, as far as I'm concerned, is recognizing that when it comes to things like electricity and gasoline, I'm recognizing the inner truth of how infinitesimally small my need and desire is regarding those things.

Although I have in the past bought into the "need" and "desire" to drive everywhere (I live in Los Angeles), and I used to think I needed or wanted to watch tv or eat fast food (and boy, I found support for those needs and desires!), when I examine these thoughts for truth, it's pretty lugubrious how I have fooled myself. Which is a great thing, of course, because recognizing how powerful I am at convincing myself of the illusion, gives me this wonderful opportunity to appreciate and expand! Yay!

And regarding appreciating -- one very fabulous way I have of expressing appreciation is to care for and tend what I appreciate. For me, that is an ongoing expression of love.

I don't know about "The Green Movement" -- lately, that looks more and more to me like an advertising campaign -- but I see a great accord between recognizing unlimited abundance, and being a loving player in a loving game on a loving planet.

[wolfgang]

Maybe what's happening is that we have forgotten that the earth is plentiful and stopped taking care of her. How we forgot is by not honoring what we get from the earth - being consumers more than care takers.

To feel abundance does not include being wasteful. And we forget that too. If you like something, you don't deplete it, you take care of it.

If you have a golden goose laying golden eggs, you don't kill the goose or then you don't have golden eggs.

The source of abundance needs taking care of, in other words. If we don't take care of the source of abundance, we waste and are not really befitting from the abundance, but taking advantage of this abundance. I think the earth responds to waste by kind of looking like there isn't enough of something we would need to continue living here. perhaps...

[Cantando]

Nevertheless, there still seems to be a discrepancy. If you think small, and you are constantly trying to save money or energy, you will stay small. An example is the person who never gets a round of drinks in. You meet him 20 years later and he is still the same, still scrimping and saving.

Or, you could argue that the guy who does every job himself - the gardening, decorating, fixing the car, etc, is actually being stingy by not paying others to do the work and is preventing them from expanding.

On the other hand, I've read a lot of 'universal abundance' material which says that you should act right now in the way you want to be. So, if you want to be a millionaire, you should start acting like one now, and spend, spend, spend (which, I admit, is a bit silly).

[wolfgang]

maybe feeling abundant is to believe that what ever you really need is going to be provided. and that one does not think there will be lack. that feeling would not include being able to waste what is provided, in other words. or want a ton more than what you really need. in some ways, if you don't have something, it means you really don't need it - in the grand scheme of things (although, that could be debated, is suppose). but with acceptance of what one has there is also a feeling of abundance. perhaps...

it's an interesting discussion, thanks.

[Holistic Star]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Staff go around switching off lights, computers and coffee machines when they are not in use.

errr - why on earth wouldn't you switch of lights and machines when they are not being used?

Part of the LOA / Abundance mindset is having gratitude for what has been given to you. Turning things off and not wasting resources is about respect for what has been given. Imagine you bought a present for a child in your family and they trashed it saying 'well it doesn't matter because there's more where that came from'. Would you feel they were being grateful for what had been given? Would you feel obliged to provide a never ending supply of presents for them to trash? I know I wouldn't!

This is what light pollution on a global scale looks like - The World Atlas of the Artificial Night Sky Brightness

[ogrekilleat]

So, if you want to be a millionaire, you should start acting like one now, and spend, spend, spend

Well, the problem is, a lot of that material is written for people who don't want to have a fulfilled, abundant, life, but rather who want to spend, spend, spend and be very wasteful. Unless you would be fulfulled by spending and wasting, I hope you will reconsider your relationship to the earth.

Nevertheless, there still seems to be a discrepancy. If you think small, and you are constantly trying to save money or energy, you will stay small.

I think the problem here is that we have so much crap that we have to think about it. If we just wouldn't use so much energy and have so many material possessions, we wouldn't need to think about it so much. We can think larger by moving away from the smallness of a consumerist, materialist lifestyle.

[Jennihul]

The green movement isn't about limit or lack to me.

It's about respect.

Why should MY footprint on this planet harm other people, animals, environments and creatures? Future creatures as well....

The choices I make should be congruent with the level of my soul's maturity. The smarter my soul gets the less I need to be showy, flashy...keep up with the Joneses. The smarter my soul gets the less material "things" mean to me.

That's not to say my choice is to live an ascetic life, though I have no judgement against people that make that choice. It just means that just because I can afford things, doesn't mean I should buy them all. Just because I am a millionaire doesn't mean I have to assume the stereotypical millionaire wasteful lifestyle. Just because interest rates have dropped and the bank tells me I can afford a half million dollar home that I should have a half million dollar home. Or need a half million dollar home. Imagine if everyone had my sense in the last year? Our economy would be a lot stronger now.

It's about respecting Gaia, ourselves and the other species of the planet. It has nothing to do with lack of abundance.

Jennifer

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Cantando

My question is: how does a belief in universal abundance square up with green issues, saving energy and reducing pollution?

It seems to me that abundance is about believing that resources are available. Not just that resources are available "out there somewhere" but also that they're available amongst what you already have.

So "thinking green" can actually boost abundance thinking. Not only is (eg.) wealth available out there for you to claim, but you can claim some just by turning off electrical appliances when not in use! And there's not a lot more abundant than having a solar panel on your roof that not only supplies your energy needs, but makes you money by selling back into the grid...

[Ak47]

I don't believe there is universal abundance with food specifically.

Historically, food production only grows geometrically (1-2-3-4-5, etc).

Meanwhile, population more or less (though it IS liquid, just like food) grows exponentially (1-2-4-8-16, etc).

If this is true (evidence points in that direction), then it's only a matter of time before we all starve to death.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Cantando

My question is: how does a belief in universal abundance square up with green issues, saving energy and reducing pollution?

There is no lack, so green issues are belief in lack and there's also some victimization thrown in there too. My work does the same thing as yours, but not to the same degree. When I'm interacting with the green problems and solutions at work, I don't buy into the lack, but I remind myself I'm playing the recycling game, the saving energy game, and the reduce waste game. None of those games "fix" anything in the outside world, such as greenhouse gases, landfill size, or number of trees on the planet, it's just what I'm choosing to do in the moment. Making lack a game of pretend (which it is), and not real, will square with universal abundance.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Keith

Not only is (eg.) wealth available out there for you to claim, but you can claim some just by turning off electrical appliances when not in use!

The counter argument is that, if I can afford it, and it makes me and my children feel happier, why can't I have my house lit up with Christmas lights every day of the year? I am buying electricity and helping keep people at the electricity plant employed. It's a choice - if someone wants to creep around in the dark, thinking they are actually saving the planet, then fine. The best way to reduce your carbon footprint is to kill yourself and recycle your body as worm food!

[Mags]

Originally Posted by Cantando

On the other hand, I've read a lot of 'universal abundance' material which says that you should act right now in the way you want to be. So, if you want to be a millionaire, you should start acting like one now, and spend, spend, spend (which, I admit, is a bit silly).

I think people often assume that wanting to be a millionaire requires them to go out and spend money on anything and everything. But this is not only irresponsible (and has seen many people plunge themselves further into debt), but it also has very different intentions behind the action.

Someone who "spends, spends, spends" to be a millionaire is probably doing so because of fear of being poor, there is likely desperation in their actions, and they are spending purely to get rather than spending on things that help them to follow their stated intentions.

If one of my intentions is to be healthy, then when I go grocery shopping, I am going to purchase food that helps me manifest that intention, regardless of the cost of the food (without being irresponsible, of course). So, faced with beautiful organic fruit and vegetables or the "reduced price" about-to-expire fruit and veg, I would choose the best quality that I can get for my money even though it costs a bit more rather than compromising on what would be best for me just to save a few pennies.

A scarcity mindset, on the other hand, looks like one of the following:
(a) Someone who doesn't buy the best quality that they can afford for the money they have, but blows their rent money on all sorts of food delicacies because they think that's what a millionaire would do and they are desperately hoping that they will receive money from somewhere in return.
or
(b) Someone who scrimps and saves, buying poor quality (and hence possibly less healthy) food just to save a bit of money at the end of the day. Ultimately, they may not enjoy their food, and they may suffer ill health as well (with associated doctors' bills) if their nutrition isn't good.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Mags

IA scarcity mindset, on the other hand, looks like one of the following:
(a) Someone who doesn't buy the best quality that they can afford for the money they have, but blows their rent money on all sorts of food delicacies because they think that's what a millionaire would do and they are desperately hoping that they will receive money from somewhere in return.
or
(b) Someone who scrimps and saves, buying poor quality (and hence possibly less healthy) food just to save a bit of money at the end of the day. Ultimately, they may not enjoy their food, and they may suffer ill health as well (with associated doctors' bills) if their nutrition isn't good.

Could we also add:

(c) The miser with a lot of money (the Scrooge type), who lives frugally, despises anyone who spends, and who lives in constant fear of someone taking it away.

.. and, possibly:

(d) Someone with a lot of money who selfishly spends on themselves only, and looks down on anyone with less money.

The key thing they have in common is that they don't like to share.

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by Mags

... my point is, who knows what exactly our future energy sources will be; however, we will always have our energy needs met in some way. That's universal abundance!

I guess I am not subscribing to that theory. Maybe I still don't understand the full definition of it. Suppose a comet hits the earth, and the sunlight is blocked. Will we have enough energy then ?
Aside from that, yea I guess there will always be enough energy, but for whom, and under what circumstances ?
Could be that in the absense of some new technology or other-worldly help, the answer will be in scaling back to pre-industrial energy consumption levels.

The future is too unknown to make such a statement IMO.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

errr - why on earth wouldn't you switch of lights and machines when they are not being used?

Agreed, but one can go too far (especially on a cold morning when you've got 2 minutes to grab a coffee before a meeting, only to discover that some eco-warrior has switched the machine off and there is no hot water).

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

Part of the LOA / Abundance mindset is having gratitude for what has been given to you.

And by far the greater part of the LOA / Abundance mindset is the belief that there is an infinite supply of everything, that we already have it and own it (so we are not actually 'given' it for being a good little boy), and that we just have to allow it in (I'm not saying that's what I believe, I'm just pointing it out).