Self-Help to solve World Affairs?

[YourSelf]

I have read several self-help books throughout my life, they all seem so positive and also help lives - however one thing that I feel is missing in them is that they only help development from the point of view of the individual.
They rarely take the individual in his/her sociological context, nor do they address problems of social dynamics.

On another thread of this forum, a few people stressed the concept of "taking responsibility of one's actions" and that everything we face in our lives is a result of our actions.
While I think it's a good way to act more and create change, would you agree that (from a descriptive point of view) everything around us is our choice, our responsibility, and the result of our actions?

There are things out there, in the real world, such as racism, work place bullying, etc. that I feel have existed before we were even born.
We can act to change those things.
We can take action to solve social problems.

But don't you think we must acknowledge the fact that there are things that affect our lives negatively that aren't our own responsibility, but the result of something called history and other social dynamics?

I'm a generally very extroverted person, and I know other extroverted people as well. However, I notice how these people undergo radical transformations when they are sent to live in places where they are discriminated against.
They become introverted, sometimes even depressed and with low self-confidence...

They can take action and speak up against the discrimination!
But is the fact that they are discriminated against a result of their own action in the first place?

Having said this, I would like to ask whether we might join our ideas from the world of self-help to affect society and make the world a better place!

If we can change ourselves, we can also change the world!

[Angela]

You are confusing being responsible with being at fault. Two entirely different things.

You want to see something in the world? Be it! (to loosely paraphrase Ghandi )

[YourSelf]

What I'm saying is that, while we should be responsible about ourselves and our actions, we must always bear in mind that other people are also liable for what they do.

Entire societies are liable for causing depression, lack of confidence, stress, rejection and other bad feelings among certain groups of people, in my opinion.

[Angela]

Well, liable means legally bound or obligated. Will you sue these bad-feeling-causing people and societies? Have them arrested? What difference does it make in the world if you bear in mind that they're liable?

[YourSelf]

Liable in the sense that I know who is the cause of what makes something negative.
(I don't necessarily imply bound in a legal sense.)

The difference is that I know there's nothing wrong if I'm disabled, a woman, am from a minority race, etc. and that the only people saying that it's wrong is them.

I know the cause why somebody doesn't employ me. It's not because I can't be a good employee, it's because the employer is a racist.

Being able to distinguish between what we are able to do, and how we're limited because of other people's ill-doing is useful to understand when we have to work on ourselves... and when we have to work on others (since any change in ourselves would not have any effect otherwise...).

[Angela]

Right. As I said, you are confusing being responsible with being at fault.

YourSelf, "working on others" is a losing proposition. It generates a space of no freedom, a space of oppression and resistance. You have no power to change other people -- especially when you are making them wrong! The only difference you make in the world with blaming and shaming is that you increase resistance, both in yourself and in them.

If you want to make a difference, for yourself, for others, and for the world, look boldly at who you are being that the world is occuring for you the way it does. If you don't like that occurence, change your way of being. Let go of demanding that others change, and grant them the same freedom you want for yourself -- to be exactly who you are. In that action, you have all the power in the world to make a huge difference, and to generate something that works really well.

[YourSelf]

OK, but how would you translate that in concrete terms?

e.g. in the case of racism.
If I'm black and my employer is racist against black people, do I have to be white?

I think I don't understand how to apply your theory in practice...
Could you provide me with a real-life example, specific to a situation of socially determined problems?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by YourSelf

Could you provide me with a real-life example, specific to a situation of socially determined problems?

Is that an authentic one -- are you black, and your employer is a racist? I'm not interested in hypotheticals. Tell me a specific incident, a specific person or group who is occuring for you like a "socially determined problem," in which you are feeling like you'd like to make a difference.

[wolfgang]

There is an idea that I run into into about a collective ego. Or heard mentality. It is a group of people taking on an identity and defending it.

So in other words if you don't see these ideas in self help books - read other books that are about society or spiritual approaches. Self help implies working on the self after all.

Or read a self help book in terms of what is said about an individual can also apply to the group, if that makes any sense.

[YourSelf]

It's an authentic case and I personally know many black people who are discriminated against by their employers.

There were some incidents in which I considered myself a victim of social disorders, but I took action and brought them to the light and solved them.
I myself am of South Asian origins, a son of immigrants in Europe, so I also have a different skin from the majority of the population and have experienced racism very often especially during childhood and teens...

1) At my school, I was the only "dark-skinned" person... and, as I specified in another thread, I have actually experienced several times being graded with lower marks than others.

2) Another problem that burdened me a lot was that the "white" girls I liked never wanted to date me. I thought it was just because of my personality, but actually discovered that it was because I was "dark-skinned" (whereas girls with my same or similar origins dated me). Very often also because, in addition to being "dark-skinned", I'm not from a well-off family, and most "white" girls I knew were much richer than me and probably didn't like my old, unfashionable clothes...

How would you have made the difference in those two specific situations?

[Angela]

Okay, great!

For 1), I think that is the past, right? The first thing I would do is let go of the old pain of it, and generate looking at what is to be learned, and how I might make a difference for people in similar situations. Possibly, I would talk to people who are teachers and ask them how they keep themselves unbiased in a world where racial prejudice are present. Also, I would play devil's advocate, and boldly look at how I might have actually deserved that lower mark, regardless of my race, from my (imaginary) old teacher's point of view. I would talk to other people who have the same feeling that they're being discriminated against, and brainstorm about what would make a difference in educating folks who feel skin color makes a person less. I would ask myself, how could I be an inspiration in this area?

For 2) is that a current one or a past one? I would remember that almost everyone has a complaint about the unjustness of why the opposite sex found them resistable in high school. Then I would ask myself, is it really my color and my clothes? Or is it my way of being? Is it possible that girls are attracted to something I'm not being, like confident, self-assured, engaging, generous, and creative? Or do I feel like they should just be attracted to me, dammit, because I'm such a cool guy and I'm entitled! Also, why is it such a problem for me that white girls don't like me, that I am blind to the beauty and fabulousness of the girls that will go out with me?

And once again, I would brainstorm with people in a similar situation about how we might generate a "group-think" or gestalt which might interrupt any habitual negative thought patterns in people who are prejudiced.

Most of all, I would take pride and pleasure in who I am, exactly as I am, and realize that if someone is judging me by the color of my skin, that does not diminish me.

What about you? What would you do?

[YourSelf]

Thank you. This time I understood a bit more clearly

The point is I think we're saying the same thing but with two different "philosophical" approaches, and thus we use a different set of words to describe the same thing...

1) This is what I did: One of the teachers was very mean. When I went to his office hours to ask how to improve my grades he just shrugged whenever I asked questions, and he always gave me bad marks at exams.
So instead of beating myself up and getting angry about the world all the time, one day I went to the principal (who was not a racist) for some advice about the situation and he asked me to have my exams re-corrected by another teacher of the same subject. The marks were adjusted to their real value and I improved my GPA
The primary negative effect that I suffered from was finally solved.

You said, "brainstorm about what would make a difference in educating folks who feel skin color makes a person less. I would ask myself, how could I be an inspiration in this area?"
This is exactly what I meant by saying that we can change other people as well
Did the way I express it imply something different...?

2) It is becoming a past issue. Let's say "Work in progress"!
While, in the meantime, I have dated some very open-minded (sometimes excessively... perhaps they had a fetish for dark-skinned immigrants ) "white" girls, I have still encountered a barrier in "white" girls generally, especially those of higher class ( = rich ).
But let me answer to the questions...

Q:"Then I would ask myself, is it really my color and my clothes? Is it possible that girls are attracted to something I'm not being, like confident, self-assured, engaging, generous, and creative?"
A:Hmmm, let me think... if this was true, then why were the non-white girls attracted to me, even during my teens?
To be honest, I have actually heard them saying that they don't like me for the way I dress, and it was general knowledge among our friends that "white" girls don't like "dark-skinned" guys. It isn't something I was thinking about by myself, but it's something everyone told and spoke about aloud...

Q:"Or do I feel like they should just be attracted to me, dammit, because I'm such a cool guy and I'm entitled!"
A:No I was just wondering how come only "dark-skinned" girls used to be attracted to me, accepted to go out with me, approached me spontaneously etc. whereas NOT ONE "white" girl ever approached me, not even at parties. Descriptive observation.
I behaved the same way with both "white" and "darkskinned" girls, with no prejudice coming from my side; it's the outcome (the fact that no white girl dated me or asked me out) that emphasized the tacit racism.

Q:"Also, why is it such a problem for me that white girls don't like me, that I am blind to the beauty and fabulousness of the girls that will go out with me?"
A:Again I've dated some very nice "dark-skinned" girls. It's just that the fact that "white" girls avoided me was so evident that it obviously struck my curiosity... There had to be something wrong!

And I don't like to think in terms of "go with whatever you get"; I also have feelings and am interested in "white" girls as well...

[Brutha]

I think you are to attached to your own frame of looking at the world and deviding it into good and evil.
We live in a world where butterflies cause tornados. Do you want to blame them?
What is the point of knowing that butterflies are evil creatures?

There is a world out there which has a past that you can't change. Accept that world. The world isn't good or evil, it's just the world.

Once you have accepted the world you build maps of how it works. Some of those are more effective than others. You shoulden't pick the map that feels the most just but the map that gives you the greatest amount of effective power over the world.
If you could do the calculations and fully understand the world around you, you could be that butterfly that produces tornados in the world and change it.

While the butterfly standard is a high one, you should take responsibilty for your results.

A:Again I've dated some very nice "dark-skinned" girls. It's just that the fact that "white" girls avoided me was so evident that it obviously struck my curiosity... There had to be something wrong!

It may very well be that your belief that you aren't accepted by white girls makes you more nervous around white girl than when you are around black girls and as a result that nervousness makes you less attractive.
Sure apart from some people really have prejudges that make it harder for you.
The increased nervousness on the other hand is probably a more significant on your ability to attract white girls.
You probably feel even more nervousness when those girls are rich.

[YourSelf]

Nice explanation using the butterfly effect!

I go beyond evil and good; I like love... A bit like Nietzsche would say

I don't think there's evil and good; but I do think (and see, daily) that certain actions can cause subjective discomfort. You steal my food for your survival. The result is your comfort and my discomfort.

While I believe that there can be measures to eliminate my discomfort in the short term, I think that - if I have the chance of identifying and crushing the specific butterfly causing the tornado - I can eliminate both parties' discomfort.

Why can't both ways work? As you said, by becoming a new butterfly after understanding the mechanisms of the world; and - as I'm saying - also by crushing older butterflies that I identify as being harmful to me (and those directly around me).

Perhaps crushing the butterfly doesn't sound very romantic, but it's also a method of survival. And the effect is the same. Personally, even more gratifying...

Originally Posted by Brutha

While the butterfly standard is a high one, you should take responsibilty for your results.

Just a question, out of fun : What would happen if I didn't take responsibility?

Originally Posted by Brutha

It may very well be that your belief that you aren't accepted by white girls makes you more nervous around white girl than when you are around black girls and as a result that nervousness makes you less attractive.
Sure apart from some people really have prejudges that make it harder for you.
The increased nervousness on the other hand is probably a more significant on your ability to attract white girls.
You probably feel even more nervousness when those girls are rich.

That's not the case. They explicitly show that they don't like poor, dark-skinned boys. It's not my belief. It's what they show me and my friends. There's a great difference between "belief" and "fact" here...

I grew up among white kids, and I grew up among rich kids. I started regularly meeting dark-skinned girls only after I was 14 years old; so I was actually nervous when meeting dark-skinned girls!!

In experience, I have probably exchanged more words with white girls than with dark-skinned girls. We become like brothers and sisters, we become very good friends. But we never date.
It's not nervousness, trust me.
It is nothing about me, it's them!

Some people have prejudice, but white rich girls [especially if they come from conservative families] have even more prejudice than everyone else.

[Brutha]

Perhaps crushing the butterfly doesn't sound very romantic, but it's also a method of survival. And the effect is the same. Personally, even more gratifying...

Crushing butterflies comes more from a scarcity mindset. Being your own butterfly that changes the world on the other hand comes from the abundance mindset.

I think that the abundance mindset will make you more happy over the long run.

Just a question, out of fun : What would happen if I didn't take responsibility?

You would be in a position that give you less power in the world and less ability to change the world for the better.
Most people don't take the responsibilty, but most people also have little influence on the world around them.

That's not the case. They explicitly show that they don't like poor, dark-skinned boys. It's not my belief. It's what they show me and my friends. There's a great difference between "belief" and "fact" here...

There are two issues that give you problems:
1. Your belief that the problem exists, which shows people around you how you expect to be treated.
2. The fact that some people really do have prejudies.

Both points have in influence on your results.

[YourSelf]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Crushing butterflies comes more from a scarcity mindset. Being your own butterfly that changes the world on the other hand comes from the abundance mindset.

I think that the abundance mindset will make you more happy over the long run.

Could you give me an example from someone's, e.g. your own or of your friends', life, if it's not a problem?
I think I'm getting lost in the myriad of metaphors and theories, and thereby fail to understand the true meaning of what you say... perhaps I could understand better with a real-life, practical example (in which it what you say has already happened). I'd be grateful for that

Originally Posted by Brutha

There are two issues that give you problems:
1. Your belief that the problem exists, which shows people around you how you expect to be treated.
2. The fact that some people really do have prejudies.

This may be true. I also know many people who transform the belief into prejudice, i.e. they are never open to new possibilities and say that ALL white people are racists, etc.
Now, my previous posts gave the idea that I also tend to generalize rich white conservative girls; however, I'm pretty open (and would be very happy) to discover that I'm wrong, and that's why each time I meet someone new I approach them with the belief that I can do something new with them.
Sadly, as of today, it hasn't worked with this specific group of people...

Point 2 has always been a stronger influence on the results than point 1.
I'm open to discover different dynamics, but I'm saying what has happened until now.

Rather than a belief, I'd call it an observation.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by YourSelf

Rather than a belief, I'd call it an observation.

Observations sure tend to fall in line with beliefs!

[YourSelf]

What do you mean?

[Brutha]

Rather than a belief, I'd call it an observation.

You can observe that Jenny and Brandy said to you that they don't want to date you because you are non-white.
You can't observe general concepts like "most X are Y". Concepts are created inside your mind and become beliefs.
It is in the human nature to look for evidence to back up your beliefs and ignore things that don't fit into your belief.

Let say you have two people, Alice has the belief: "Everyone is her friend", Brandy has the belief: "Everyone is out to screw her over".
Let say a Carol comes along and chats first with Alice and afterwards with Brandy.
Because Alice things Carol is her friend, Alice is nice to Carol and in return Carol is nice to Alice.
Brandy keeps distance from Carol to prevent Carol from screwing her over and as a result Carol isn't as nice to Brandy as she is to Alice.

Both Alice and Brandy observe Carols behavior and both find that their beliefs are accurate.

There is also a third effect of the communication. Alice brain produces positive emotions because of her belief that she chats with a friend.
Brandy on the other hand gets depressed because nobody likes her in her reality.

One example of how my own state effects those around me:
As an excercise I decide to go out and talk a bit to strangers to develop better social skills.
It a train station where I live. The train comes every 10 minutes. I go up to someone and ask him whether he knows when the next train comes and finish the conversation afterwards.

Afterwards I stand there and some guy approaches me and ask me how he comes best to a specific location in town and I chat a bit with him.
I normally never talk with strangers when I commute and neither do most people here.
My internal belief that I wanted to approach people translated into bodylanguage.
When the guy searched someone to point him to the best route I seemed probably the most approachable.
It pretty creept me out (I'm no fan of "The Secret"). If you want more example of what people attribute as result of their beliefs who do believe in Intention/Manifestion look into that forum.
In general the important things is that your beliefs mostly have unconscious effects that you don't notice.
In general there is a huge pool from different beliefs that all describe reality more or less with the same accuracy but that have a different amount of usefulness for your life.
In addition often very complex beliefs can be more accurate that one line explanations for what happens around you (there is a German video that explains that aspect really well but unfortunatly most people here can't German so linking to it is probably pointless but it really opened my eyes to the possible beliefs for realtiy that are out there).

Responsibilty is more than taking initiative. It's a state of mind, it's a belief.
A result of responsibilty is taking initiative.
But it also has other effects. It changes your perception of the world around you.
It changes you bodylanguage when you talk about the thing you feel responsible for.
The same goes for the words you use and the tone of your voice.
Your beliefs affect what you do.

[YourSelf]

I understood.

What I meant by observation was "what happened in the past" or "what happened so far".

But as you say, I think, "what happened in the past" can influence my beliefs, and as a consequence also my attitude and open-mindedness in a specific situation.

Well, I try to avoid that from happening every day actually.
But maybe the Intention-->Manifestation is stronger than simply trying to avoid a negative mechanism, right?

However, I'd like to ask something, on a practical level:
Since most white rich conservative girls are likely to have a bit of prejudice, won't intention>manifestation be more harmful?
e.g. If I simply try to flirt with them, they might think that I'm trying to rape or sexually assault them?

[Brutha]

Lets build a different interpretation of that reality.
White rich girl get toled from their parents that they should keep distance from black guys.
That creates a certain tension when you interact with them.
Tension on the other hand is what creates emotions. Young people want to break out and do things that are forbidden.
A lot of young people take drugs to rebel against their parents.
The first Cigarets taste awful and everyone knows the negative healtheffects that are associated with them.
On the other hand that makes cigarets interesting and young people associate them with rebeling against their parents.
Young people want to eat the forbidden fruit and break free.
With a given set of facts you can tell a lot of different stories.

Over the long run, the people who take responsibilty will determine which stories get commonly accepted reality, because most people don't want to created their own stories but interpret reality through social conditioning.

e.g. If I simply try to flirt with them, they might think that I'm trying to rape or sexually assault them?

If you put to much every into it that might happen.
If you on the other hand strongly believe that your actions are completly normal people around you will pick up that belief.
Humans get their beliefs from people around them holding those beliefs and the more deeply people belief in them the more likely people pick them up.
That also the advantage of believing you are responsible. People around you will pick up that belief and think that you are responsible and treat you in a way that gives you more power.

[YourSelf]

Wow, I had actually never thought of that different kind of interpretation...

However, let me admit something: I often have that feeling that if a white girl approaches me she must be doing so simply because she has a fetish for dark-skinned people or some ideological motivation (e.g. for the sake of being multicultural).

I'm not saying that people shouldn't have their opinions (actually I have nothing against multiculturalism), but I don't want to be fallen in love with for the sake of an ideological agenda.

Anyway, thanks for the advice.
Well appreciated and very helpful!

[Brutha]

I'm not saying that people shouldn't have their opinions (actually I have nothing against multiculturalism), but I don't want to be fallen in love with for the sake of an ideological agenda.

I don't want to tell you that you have to take this or that belief. You merely should be aware that the beliefs that you do hold influence your outcome, and therefore you aren't the victim of your enviroment but can do a lot of things.