How to Take Responsibility for

[Dan.Linehan]

I like to use the 100% responsibility model approach for my life. It usually works really well, but I don't know how to do it for this.

How do I mentally take responsibility for things that seem to be totally out of my control? Like when I read an article about the oceans becoming completely toxic for mammalian life?

I never dumped toxic waste into the ocean.

In fact, I never invaded Iraq. I never made people into slaves to harvest a crop. I never setup a bogus reserve banking system to steal money from a nation. I never grew genetically modified crops.

When it comes to empowerment it makes me feel decidedly better to admit that I didn't do these things and not take responsibility for them. Know why? BECAUSE I NEVER DID THEM. And I'm tired of feeling responsible for everyone else's mistakes..

The day I hold a gun to someone's face to get them to harvest coffee beans, or cut down some old growth trees, or tell someone they are going to burn in Hell for some fictitious indiscretion against a God I made up, I'll accept responsibility for these kinds of actions.

[The David]

I'm not an expert on the responsibility thing, but here are a few possible options:

1. If you believe in SR, then you created the circumstances. Not by dumping waste into the ocean, but by cultivating waste in your consciousness. Are you feeling especially toxic? Then you are subconsciously creating a news report than corresponds.

2. You are responsible, but that doesn't mean you caused it. I think this is better than the 'I caused it' mentality, because that's just spreading blame. It's like Erin's stale bread epiphany. Whoever did it, don't just complain about it, do something to fix it. 'They' may be at fault, but you're the one experiencing it by watching the news.

[Angela]

Dan, 100% responsibility and blame are not the same thing. You are not to blame for the events in the world that you object to.

What you are responsible for is: your response to them. There are many things that happen in the world that you just don't like. It seems to me like you get pretty outraged by them. And that's fine. But it doesn't feel very good, does it? Well, maybe it feels good in a nurturing-a-grudge sort of way, but that's not an authentic alignment with feeling good.

It looks to me like you've skipped an important step in taking 100% responsibility -- accepting reality exactly as it is and exactly as it isn't. That does not mean condoning any particular behavior or event. It does mean letting it in. That is: these things have happened, and they should have happened, because they did happen. Arguing with reality ("this *shouldn't* be! this *shouldn't* have happened!") only leaves you feeling powerless and outraged, because there is no freedom or inspiration around "it *should* be other than what it is!"

Maybe you're saying to yourself, "Angela shouldn't be saying this! Of course people shouldn't dump toxic waste! Of course the war in Iraq should never have been started! What kind of idiot believes people should be forced at gunpoint to harvest coffee beans!"

And as you think that, notice the feeling in your body and mind. It's not a good one, is it? That's because reality is not interested in your *shoulds*. It just keeps on being real, no matter how much you rumpelstiltskin it. All that *shoulding* eats up the beautiful energy you have that could be making a difference.

Once you choose to accept that things you don't like have happened -- once you let it in that this is how it is -- you are free to make choices that are in alignment with who I know you to be: a man who is committed to making a difference in the world. You are free to see who you are as a matter of consequence. Letting go of "it should be other than what it is", you are free to generate what you would like to be in the face of reality.

So, here you are, a vital, powerful, loving person who accepts that toxic material has been dumped. There is no freedom in, "that shouldn't have happened" -- but where can you see freedom for yourself? Maybe in "I'm committed to clean water in the world" or "education" or "organization" or whatever it is that really inspires you in the face of the reality of toxic dumping.

100% responsibilty = accepting reality exactly as it is and exactly as it isn't, and taking a bold look at who you are being that reality occurs as it does for you.

Best wishes to you in generating something huge! I'm confident that you are doing that.

Lots of love and gratitude,
Angela

[theknightwhosaysni-NI]

Angela this is such a great answer you posted !

By looking at it from the SR point of view, here is what I came up with :

Dan Linehan did not do those things, but from an SR point of view, Counsciousness did.

Dan cannot mentally take responsability for it, however Counsciousness can. It's a different point of view, that Dan (I mean your human mind) cannot access through mental thinking.

Everything comes from Source (Counsciousness), from the the darkest of the souls and the most separated entities, to the most enlightened people.
The toxic oceans, the wars etc, are the effects of parts of Counsciousness "fighting" against Itself, however they are still part of Counsciousness.

If you fight against those things in a "they-are-not-me" way, then it's like a part of Counsciousness (Dan) fighting against parts of Counsciousness (those that cause wars, toxic oceans etc).

To put it simply :

Dan = a part of Counsciousness
people at war = parts of Counsciousness fighting against Itself

Dan fighting or "resisting" against people at war = a part of Counsciousness fighting parts of Counsciousness that fight.

The answer is, like Angela says, aknowledge reality as it is and as it is not, realise the real You is not Dan but much broader, and let Dan work for You to heal Yourself (Counsciousness Self).

[Scooter]

Dan, I loved Angela's answer. Classy and top notch.

I remember once a Woman, a teacher, I knew told me I was responsible for everything that happened in my life. I thought no, that isn't true. We argued in circles for days. Then I realized that she was correct. The example that broke me was a car accident.

She said. Imagine you are driving down the interstate, I-15 at the time as I was living in Utah, and imagine a car slams into the back of me. She said, you are responsible. I was aghast, no way, it was his "fault". She said, it wasn't about fault and it wasn't about blame it was about responsibility. She asked me if I knew that there was a possibility of getting in a wreck when I drove, I said yes, she asked if I knew I could get hit and no fault of my own, again I said yes. Then she asked how I could drive on a road knowing that I was at risk and not take responsibility for what happens. It sizzled my brain. I was responsible because I knew there was a possibility of an accident, my fault or not, and yet I "CHOSE" to drive anyway.

My Motto now is "I am responsible". Funny this came up today as I was just thinking about it yesterday. Wonderful how the mind finds these thihngs when it needs them.

Now, The environment and Toxic oceans.
Do you know that many products you buy may or may not cause toxins and effect the ocean?
Do you purchase them knowing that possibly the company that made them outsourced to some other country because there are less restrictions and those other countries might allow waste to be dumped into the ocean?
You can take it from here...

I don't know what SR and the Global Consciousness thingy is, it sounds like a way to put off blame to the whole instead of the part.
Another way to escape or rationalize maybe...

[Dan.Linehan]

Thanks for all for the great responses. Very helpful. Here are a few thoughts..

Originally Posted by The David

It's like Erin's stale bread epiphany. Whoever did it, don't just complain about it, do something to fix it.

I had forgotten about that blog. Its a great analogy, thank you for the reminder.

When its a choice between complaining about a problem versus just trying to fix it I like to think that I always choose fixing it right away, but that's not really the case. Frequently, I mull over possible solutions for a long time before actually taking action. Definitely room for improvement there.

Originally Posted by angela

So, here you are, a vital, powerful, loving person who accepts that toxic material has been dumped. There is no freedom in, "that shouldn't have happened" -- but where can you see freedom for yourself? Maybe in "I'm committed to clean water in the world" or "education" or "organization" or whatever it is that really inspires you in the face of the reality of toxic dumping.

Where can I see the freedom for myself? Where can I see the freedom for myself. Hmmm. Lemme think about that a bit..

• I can see freedom in the acknowledgment of the free will of other people. That they are free to make their own choices, even if they are destructive.
  
  
• I can see freedom in choosing not to define myself by the actions of others.
  
  
• I can see freedom in not purchasing products that might contribute to toxic waste.
  
  
• I can see freedom in respecting and supporting the journalists who investigate and report on pollution.
  
  
• I can see freedom in supporting government officials and private enterprises who are working to improve sustainability.
  

You are right, of course, we are only responsible for our own response to bad situations, not necessarily the bad situations themselves; that's an important distinction.

It comes down to what is the most productive response? All the freedoms I listed above are great starts. Thank you, Angela.

Originally Posted by theknightwhosaysni-NI

To put it simply :

Dan = a part of Consciousness
people at war = parts of Consciousness fighting against Itself

Dan fighting or "resisting" against people at war = a part of Consciousness fighting parts of Consciousness that fight.

Well said.

Stop resisting the parts of Consciousness that are fighting. Its a bit like turning the other cheek isn't it, but doing it in your mind before you've even been slapped.

Originally Posted by Scooter

Do you know that many products you buy may or may not cause toxins and effect the ocean? Do you purchase them knowing that possibly the company that made them outsourced to some other country because there are less restrictions and those other countries might allow waste to be dumped into the ocean?

True story. Yes, I realize this, and actively avoid products that are not sustainable. I buy 90% organic, avoid foods packaged in plastic as it does not biodegrade, etc.

Part of me is afraid to go much further with my own sustainable practices. Its like walking a line between "setting a good example" versus becoming a cautionary tale, you know?

I guess at a certain point, when someone has improved as much as reasonably can in their own life, its then time to think larger scale and assist others in making improvements.

I think I am somewhat caught in-between right now. I've made tons of changes in my own life (way beyond the switch over to CF light bulbs stage) yet not quite ready to make the leap into promoting sustainable practices systematically.. ie running some sort of business doing it.

[Lola]

you might like to participate in something like California Coastal Cleanup Day

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by Scooter

She said. Imagine you are driving down the interstate, I-15 at the time as I was living in Utah, and imagine a car slams into the back of me. She said, you are responsible. I was aghast, no way, it was his "fault". She said, it wasn't about fault and it wasn't about blame it was about responsibility. She asked me if I knew that there was a possibility of getting in a wreck when I drove, I said yes, she asked if I knew I could get hit and no fault of my own, again I said yes. Then she asked how I could drive on a road knowing that I was at risk and not take responsibility for what happens. It sizzled my brain. I was responsible because I knew there was a possibility of an accident, my fault or not, and yet I "CHOSE" to drive anyway.

When I start to think that I've chosen to live in a world where people can be so cruel to each other and to animals and the environment I just don't want to be here, to exist at all... I know my existence in the US causes a significant environmental impact, is another American behind horrible US foreign policy... consuming almost anything comes with some sort of price tag in exploitation and pollution... making any income means that I'm taxed to fund violence... I often think my best course of action is just to kill myself so I don't keep supporting things that I oppose.

[Dan.Linehan]

Secure joy in the consciousness you maintain.

- Slade Roberson, here.

I think that's a great answer.

Violence is such a puzzle, isn't it? To secure joy in your own consciousness you need to decline to be a part of other people's violence, you need to know that you're doing your best monitoring your own responses when you encounter negative influences.

I wonder if I can/should take joy in people having the free will to be able to commit violence in the first place?

I may also begin to think of taxation as a sort of theft, since tax money is taken from me against my will I'm no longer responsible for how it is spent.

I'm not a politician, it isn't my job.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

I wonder if I can/should take joy in people having the free will to be able to commit violence in the first place?

Yes!!! Well said. Isn't that wonderful?!

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

To secure joy in your own consciousness...you need to know that you're doing your best monitoring your own responses when you encounter negative influences.

I think everyone is doing the best they know how to at the moment, so it's more empowering to realize that and do what you can than to lament everything that's wrong.

The people who do know "better" and aren't following that suffer in their own ways.

[theknightwhosaysni-NI]

Originally Posted by jaamkie

I know my existence in the US causes a significant environmental impact

You can also see it this way : As you're living in the US, you have access to more tools, money and power in order to have a greater impact towards addressing environmental issues on a large scale.

for instance the mere fact that you have access to Internet provides you with the possibility to impact many people's lifes.

You can also use some of your money to build projects promoting environmental protection, which would be easier than if you had less access to physical wealth.
These are just some examples to illustrate my point : you can choose to see your situation in a negative or positive way without necessarily being in a state of denial.

[Scooter]

Originally Posted by jaamkie

I often think my best course of action is just to kill myself so I don't keep supporting things that I oppose.

Now there is a brilliant idea.
Are you looking for for me to jump in and say Ah, please don't?
You won't get it here.

do yourself a favor and drag yourself on down to the nearest ER and tell them just what you typed here... OK?

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by Scooter

Now there is a brilliant idea.
Are you looking for for me to jump in and say Ah, please don't?
You won't get it here.

do yourself a favor and drag yourself on down to the nearest ER and tell them just what you typed here... OK?

Um I really wasn't looking for anything but I guess I was hoping here I'd get more thoughtful answers than "suicide=bad"- I don't inherently see living as better than not-living, so I try to weigh whether it's better or not and have been feeling that up to this point in my life I've taken a lot more than I've given, so the question is whether in the future I'll be the sort of person that can cause enough positive change to offset the cost of my life, and I really don't know. Not to worry, it's such a final decision I wouldn't actually plan to do it until I were completely convinced it was the right thing to do... and as I said I'm just not sure one way or the other

[Angela]

I've been thinking about suicide and responsibility. I think when some people talk about suicide as an option, they don't recognize the incredibly huge impact that has on others. Of course killing yourself has a big impact, but even just talking about it creates a ripple of energy that is not at all inconsequential. I'm not saying shut up about feelings of self-destruction, not at all. I'm saying that real responsibility means looking boldly at the fact that you don't just disappear and leave nothing when you die, and the act of killing yourself is a not just self-destructive, it is just plain destructive.

When you take your life, you're not just taking it from yourself, you're taking it from everyone else, and I see that as the ultimate act of stinginess. It is not an act of generosity to remove yourself from the playing field.

And yet it must be really hard to think of it that way when you're depressed enough to consider suicide as an option.

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by Angela

even just talking about it creates a ripple of energy that is not at all inconsequential.

That is interesting- not at all how I think of it- I guess I don't see it as destructive... everyone dies at some point, do we consider every death to be "destructive"? Well I'm rather pro-euthanasia etc and generally pro- the idea that living and dying can be decisions rather than feeling a victim of fate- "I didn't choose to be born" or "I'm scared because I don't know when I'll die"- when I was younger I used to often think "I didn't choose to be born like this", but I've realized I guess I did choose it, and I'm continuing to choose it every day by efforts to stay alive, and I can't use that as an excuse for unhappiness and feeling a victim. Fearing or denying death is silly when it is so inevitable- it is a question of circumstances not of whether it will happen...

As a child had dreams of being part of a group of people where most people chose when they would die and would make their arrangements and then have a peaceful death of their choosing; I also had dreams of death rituals of mixing creatory ashes into soil in a vegetable garden, then all of the person's family and friends nurturing the garden for a season and eating from it, culuminating in a big feast where the person was remembered and grieving was sort of officially finished and the person was thought to have been absorbed back into the lives of their loved ones... wish those dreams were closer to reality, they seemed more realistic than our death-denying culture.

[Angela]

It's true that everyone dies. But killing someone is killing someone, whether it's another person or you. It's an act of destructive violence. It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem, usually. And it has huge repercussions among the survivors, vastly different and often way more hurtful than other deaths.

I'm not saying it's *wrong* or that you shouldn't do it. I'm saying: taking 100% responsibility means acknowledging that you are part of all this is, and if you remove yourself from this life, there will be tremendous consequences for others. I think often when someone is feeling badly enough to consider suicide as an option, they're in a pretty self-absorbed state and the impact of their actions doesn't occur to them -- or their experience of it is badly warped.

[Joely]

Originally Posted by Angela

I think often when someone is feeling badly enough to consider suicide as an option, they're in a pretty self-absorbed state and the impact of their actions doesn't occur to them -- or their experience of it is badly warped.

Speaking as somebody who has worked in a psychiatric institution, apart from the people with extremely severe psychiatric disorders (such as schizophrenia), people who kill themselves do it very often feeling that their life is a burden on others and that by ending it, they are actually doing those people a favour.

I've lost many people in my life to death and whether it's been an accident, cancer or suicide (I've lost one person to suicide), I've never felt that it was really a loss. This might sound odd, considering that I was raised atheist, but I feel all the people I've lost as though they're still with me. I've never worried about death (possibly having had a near death experience helps!), but I don't think of it as people having been taken from me, whatever the reason for the death. I feel the grief, the sadness that I won't see them again. Other than meditation, I'm curious about spirituality but not spiritual. And yet that's how I feel. I sense no loss. The friend I lost was the most selfless person I've ever met, a truly beautiful soul. It would have been incredibly selfish of me to demand that he live through the agonising pain he was in just because I wanted to see him around - not to imply I'm glad he's dead, at all. I don't see them as still around in the sense that a medium might. But they're there in my heart. I don't demand that they be physically in my existence for me to be okay.

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by Joely

Speaking as somebody who has worked in a psychiatric institution, apart from the people with extremely severe psychiatric disorders (such as schizophrenia), people who kill themselves do it very often feeling that their life is a burden on others and that by ending it, they are actually doing those people a favour.

Yes in the past I have been somewhat depressed and then I really did feel like I was a burden on everyone who knew me- so I mostly avoided people to avoid spreading my misery around, would selectively spill my griefs knowing it was imposing on my listener and otherwise would try to act cheerful even when not feeling it... a big part of me being miserable was that I would feel guilty for not being happy and productive with everything I'd been given in life, with such a great loving family- like I had no excuse to be unhappy so I would feel really guilty and defective for it- becoming somewhat more selfish for awhile actually helped me feel better...

Now I'm mostly a happy person so I do try to spend time with my family and friends to spread around joy as much as I can... definitely counts on the plus side against the negatives of consuming exploitative products and funding wars...

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Joely

people who kill themselves do it very often feeling that their life is a burden on others and that by ending it, they are actually doing those people a favour.

That's what I mean by a warped experience. Generating violence and withholding, although someone might think they're doing the world a favor, creates something in the world that doesn't work in a life I love. And frankly, I think that underneath the apparent desire to do the world a favor, there lies a self-interest that is much deeper than any altruistic feeling. Often I think people are powerless to see that there are options for letting go of feeling bad and generating feeling good, that their mental illness or physical pain is blinding them to.

You mention that it would be selfish to keep someone here despite their unending pain, and maybe you're right about that. I'm not advocating keeping someone here who doesn't want to be here. I do think, though, that a more universal atmosphere of 100% responsibility would result in more light being shed on alternatives, in a lot of cases, to this taking of one's life, alternatives that would generate something that works (for me!) better than what suicide generates. Of course each person must make their own choice, and I don't begrudge them that.

It's lovely that you are willing to generously allow people to make their own choices, Joely, and I would like to do that, too. And - I have a very strong preference for an environment in which suicide, and even the contemplation of suicide, would be very, very rare.

[Joely]

Originally Posted by Angela

It's lovely that you are willing to generously allow people to make their own choices, Joely, and I would like to do that, too. And - I have a very strong preference for an environment in which suicide, and even the contemplation of suicide, would be very, very rare.

I do too. One of the reasons I chose to work where I did was the benefit gained by seeking help. As Jaamkie mentioned, much of that very severe depressive thinking involves feeling a dreadful guilt that you feel sad and depressed all the time and that you're burdening friends with your feelings. It's often hard to get through to people that they aren't, and that if they took the simple step of allowing themselves to feel their pain, rather than beat themselves up for feeling it, they would be released. I think that's why at the moment I seem to be focusing on writing to help people see different alternatives. I've been there, but then I've always had something that had greater meaning in my life to pull me back. And I have a bloody-minded will to live as well!

I think it's just the way I've been raised, to be honest. My parents have living wills; I and my brother become responsible for the decision whether or not to end their lives should they be in a position where they can no longer make that decision whether to live or die themselves. I don't think there's any tougher call than being asked to decide whether somebody else lives or dies, but I do respect their choice. I'm sorry if this is going off-topic, but I see it as one of the ways that I take responsibility for what happens in the world. In my little way, I make an effort to help people feel better about themselves and alleviate some of the pain others suffer in life, whatever the cause.

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by Angela

That's what I mean by a warped experience. Generating violence and withholding, although someone might think they're doing the world a favor, creates something in the world that doesn't work in a life I love. And frankly, I think that underneath the apparent desire to do the world a favor, there lies a self-interest that is much deeper than any altruistic feeling. Often I think people are powerless to see that there are options for letting go of feeling bad and generating feeling good, that their mental illness or physical pain is blinding them to.

You mention that it would be selfish to keep someone here despite their unending pain, and maybe you're right about that. I'm not advocating keeping someone here who doesn't want to be here. I do think, though, that a more universal atmosphere of 100% responsibility would result in more light being shed on alternatives, in a lot of cases, to this taking of one's life, alternatives that would generate something that works (for me!) better than what suicide generates. Of course each person must make their own choice, and I don't begrudge them that.

It's lovely that you are willing to generously allow people to make their own choices, Joely, and I would like to do that, too. And - I have a very strong preference for an environment in which suicide, and even the contemplation of suicide, would be very, very rare.

Hey, thanks for the replies- I am really curious because you come at it from such a different point of view from me... what do you mean by violence and withholding? Violence to me is about imposition of your will against someone else's free will... so don't see how that makes much sense in the context of taking your own life... and if you're advocating personal responsibility doesn't it make sense that everyone's reaction to death is their own personal responsibility rather than the responsibility of the dead???

also where do you draw the line? People make decisions every day based on how much or little they care for their own physical life relative to other values... smoking and unhealthy eating, risky driving habits, extreme sports, risky job choices- firefighters, policemen, etc... taking part in protests despite possible reprisal, hunger strikes, getting on airplanes, living in disaster-prone regions, etc... really what is the difference- they're making decisions that shorten their lives- shouldn't they all be held equally responsible? would you tell family of a lung cancer victim that their loved one just should've been less selfish? the family of a 9/11 firefighter?

I can understand not wanting those who are close to you to die just out of selfishly wanting them around... and I can understand not wanting anyone to die as the only alternative to tremendous suffering because you would be opposed to the suffering... but why do you not want it to even be part of the environment, not even be contemplated?

[Angela]

Jaamkie, I think you're hearing it differently than I am wanting it to be heard. It sounds to me like you're collapsing blame and responsibility, like it's someone's *fault* if they commit suicide. What I mean is not that at all, because blame, shame and fault have no place in a life I love. I'm not talking about "holding people responsible." And I'm not talking about selfishness; not as a judgement, anyway. When I say there's often self-absorption there, I mean what I was feeling recently during a bout of depression: I just couldn't bother myself to worry about anyone else but myself. It wasn't really till I took responsibility for my own well-being above everyone else's that I started to feel good.

So, yes, people who make choices to smoke or race cars or go on hunger strike, I believe, will feel good if they take 100% responsibility for their choices, and will feel bad if they don't. And they have a choice to assume 100% responsibility for the impact their way of being has on others, just as those others have 100% responsibility for their response to the ways of being of the smoking race-car driving hunger striker. It's not like if one person assumes total responsible, that means the other person is not responsible. That would be blame-shame-fault talk.

Regarding violence: I believe that violence is the deliberate act of harming or destroying someone's well-being. And suicide certainly falls into that category! I recognize that poor mental health can leave a person at the effect of her illness -- I'm not saying she is to *blame* for the violence she perpetrates against her body. And part of generating the environment I'm talking about is a preference that treatment for such illness include a spotlight on the power of the person and her responsibility, rather than casting her as a victim. I believe that going towards feeling good is much more effective than going away from feeling bad. That's just me, though -- I'm no doctor.

And to your last question: It's not that I want to deny the existence of suicide or even its contemplation. It is that I would strongly prefer to generate an environment in which people aren't limited to thoughts like: "my death would be a relief to others." I would like to generate an environment where light is shown brightly, and people who are feeling bad have abundant, overflowing opportunity to feel good and to be grateful for life. Feeling good even if they are in great pain; even if they are considering suicide; even if life is really difficult; even if they are sacrificing their well-being in some way.

I am in favor of, and committed to, feeling good, for myself and for the world.

[jaamkie]

I probably didn't say that quite right either- I was sort of responding to earlier when you said that friends/family of someone who commits suicide would hurt more/differently than someone who died for other reasons- wondering how that could possibly be true and the only thing I could think was that the family would blame the person for not wanting to live/not valuing their life- and I was thinking that it's just a different degree but same idea as someone who smokes a lot of cigarettes and doesn't quit despite knowing the health risks and then dies prematurely of lung cancer- that they equally had different priorities than their personal longevity and the feelings of their family.

And you don't think there are situations where the death of one person is a really objectively a relief to another or many others? I can think of several local killing-sprees where the murderer committed suicide- I don't imagine that the people who survived because the murderer killed himself first are exactly complaining that the person shouldn't've killed himself... So sort of on a less-personal, less-willful way I feel like I'm the person with the machine gun and either I keep exploiting the rest of the world to stay alive or else I stop myself... or like a vampire who survives by sucking the blood from others... course that's just one side of things, I'm part of a huge pack of us, trying to do as little harm as I can, trying to stop my packmates from doing as much harm, not saying it is all negative, but it is an open question if some people would better off without my existence, and if their interests outweigh those I know personally who would miss me.

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by Angela

And part of generating the environment I'm talking about is a preference that treatment for such illness include a spotlight on the power of the person and her responsibility, rather than casting her as a victim. I believe that going towards feeling good is much more effective than going away from feeling bad. That's just me, though -- I'm no doctor.

Well suppose I can't speak for anyone but myself, but my experience is the opposite- that taking too much responsibility for my own emotions was a big part of the problem when I was unhappy. I would initially believe any unhappines entirely an internal problem of not thinking happy social normal thoughts rather than maybe a problem with my external environment. I got better when I basically had to give up and stop trying to hold myself together in a situation I didn't want to be in (but thought objectively was for the best)- actually that could describe pretty much every time I've been varying degrees of unhappy- I feel much better when I break down and call myself a victim and force a change in my environment rather than just trying to tell myself that I can be happy under any circumstances. Dropping out of boring high school, quitting a scholarship program that would've landed me at an ethically questionable job, giving up on relationships where I just didn't like/respect the person enough, realizing I had mono and shouldn't feel bad/responsible for my exhaustion, giving up on forcing myself into traditional Christian faith when my experiences disagreed with it.

If I were talking to someone sad I think I'd listen for their external problems and try to let them see that they could be changed, rather than telling them that it's an internal problem with their negative thoughts.


BTW sorry for going off-topic with this- the original post wasn't about depression or any sort of mental pain at all- it was a response to the idea that we each create our own experience including the big problems in the world, and the starting point for talking about how to judge our overall impact on the world and our responsibility for it.

[Angela]

I don't think it's off-topic at all. But I do think that you are still hearing "blame" when I say "responsibility." That happens a lot, so once again I'll spell out what 100% responsibility is for me: accepting reality exactly as it is and exactly as it is not, and boldly looking at who you are being that reality occurs for you the way it does.

That has absolutely zero - zilch - nada -- to do with blame, shame, or fault.

I'm so glad you were able to free yourself from circumstances in which you were feeling bad. That's great!

And if I am talking to someone who is sad, and was referring to himself as a victim, I would not limit them by telling them they are at the effect of their circumstances -- that it's the circumstances that must change, not the sad person. Arguing with reality only has sadness and victimhood persist. Only when you fully accept reality do you have power to generate the missing factor: joy, freedom, peace, etc. -- until then you are just hauling around your old prison of pain.

A person is really free when she realizes that she can have what she wants regardless of her circumstances -- by generating it. But if she requires her external circumstances to be just so before she will be free, connected, joyful, safe, whatever -- then those things are as temporary as a sneeze.

[Savage]

@Dan: Here's a way of thinking you may find helpful.

Imagine playing a computer role-playing game. Some evil element has taken over the land, and it's your job to go on a quest to set things right. Is the evil your fault? No. But it's still your responsibility because if you do nothing, you have to live with it. It doesn't matter if it's fair or not. It just is. Blame the programmers if you want. Blame yourself for entering the game world. But then it's best to accept the quest and see where it leads.

In a game it can be fun to go up against evil, whether you win or lose. Why not in real life too? You do the best you can, you grow and learn from it, and you make a difference along the way.

All of the physical stuff you experience is temporary anyway. We're all dead in the long run. If any part of us lives on, it won't be our bodies or this planet.

You see -- the real point isn't to save the planet. The planet's a goner for sure, given enough time. The point is to grow into the kind of person who maybe can save the planet, and enjoy the challenge along the way. That benefits the planet here and now, but it also changes you, and there's the possibility you may retain that growth in non-physical form.

Life is a lot less scary once you really, really accept the idea that everything physical is temporary. It's demise is inevitable. So if everything physical is doomed, you're free to work on the non-physical while you're here in physical form. Ironically, that outlook makes live a lot more fun and exciting. You can tackle the big problems freely, knowing that the real point is simply to do your best to solve them and challenge yourself to the limits. It's easier to solve a problem when you aren't afraid of failing.

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by Angela

I don't think it's off-topic at all. But I do think that you are still hearing "blame" when I say "responsibility." That happens a lot, so once again I'll spell out what 100% responsibility is for me: accepting reality exactly as it is and exactly as it is not, and boldly looking at who you are being that reality occurs for you the way it does.

That has absolutely zero - zilch - nada -- to do with blame, shame, or fault.

I'm so glad you were able to free yourself from circumstances in which you were feeling bad. That's great!

And if I am talking to someone who is sad, and was referring to himself as a victim, I would not limit them by telling them they are at the effect of their circumstances -- that it's the circumstances that must change, not the sad person. Arguing with reality only has sadness and victimhood persist. Only when you fully accept reality do you have power to generate the missing factor: joy, freedom, peace, etc. -- until then you are just hauling around your old prison of pain.

A person is really free when she realizes that she can have what she wants regardless of her circumstances -- by generating it. But if she requires her external circumstances to be just so before she will be free, connected, joyful, safe, whatever -- then those things are as temporary as a sneeze.

*sigh* realizing I've gone from bad to worse in trying to say what I mean- I was agreeing with you there- of course it's never REALLY externals, but it was a shift from seeing circumstances as immoveable and out of my control (so therefore my entire power was limited to acclimating myself to whatever I'd happened to create) to allowing myself to focus on the future and freeing myself to make changes and live a different sort of life as I learned better what would make me happy- it's almost going from blaming myself for the past and being a victim of my own past ignorance to taking responsibility for the future- but connected with what Joley was saying about depressed people having excessive concern for other people's expectations of them.

[Angela]

okay, gotcha (I think.)

love,
angela

[The David]

You gotta love Steve, with his strangely inspiring hell-in-a-handbasket nihilism.