An Honest Discussion about The View of American Leaders - Dennis Kucinich

[Fullcrum]

Alrighty, hey guys! This your fellow New Jerseyman who's starting a thread where the views of all the American presidential runners will be posted in an unbiased fashion. To be considered their view, the person should have

• Voted For It in Congress (if applicable)
• Made a Public Statement Somewhere they stated their View
• Not changed their mind on it twenty times
• Debated for it in the debates - if they said something contrary to their view in a debate, well, their view has changed then, hasn't it?
• Do the organizations who support them with money AGREE with their stated views? Or do they have views contrary to the candidates they support (then why do they support them? hmmmm )

I believe this is a good general criterion for how we can figure out what a politician's views REALLY are, not just what they say in a televised debate on TV.

Let's begin.

EDIT: Can someone change the title of my thread to NOT include Dennis Kucinich? That was not my intention at all - I don't even know how it got there! This is supposed to show the views of all candidates in one thread, kinda like a "reference guide", I just happen to know all his views and posted his first.

[Fullcrum]

Alright, I don't have time at the moment for EVERY candidate, but I do support Kucinich (Democrat Senator from Ohio) and know his views inside out. I'll count on others to post others' views.

Kucinich:

• Supports a woman's right to choose for abortion
• Free healthcare for all.
• Greatly increased support for green energy sources.
• Legalize same-sex marriage.
• Privatize social security - full benefits at age 65
• Ending the War on Drugs
• Free education through college for everyone.
• Lower the drinking age to 18 with more support in schools for alcohol education and lower the voting age to 16.
• All troops out of Iraq, even those for "guarding the embassy" (embassy in an occupied territory?) and bring the UN peacekeeping force in
• Eliminate death penalty
• Give Wasington DC equal voting rights in Congress as a state
• Voted against the Iraq war every time (unlike the other candidates) and also against funding for it every time
• Get America out of NAFTA and WTO (Google if you want to know what these are)
• Favors more diplomatic relations with Cuba
• More lenient immigration policy than what Bush has asked for
• Both READ and VOTED AGAINST the US Patriot act since its inception
• Vegan (haha no lie)

Dennis Kucinich presidential campaign, 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Gabo]

Pretty good summary of Kucinich's views. I have a minor correction, though.

Kucinich supports tax-funded health care and education.
Any product that has a cost to produce cannot be free.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Gabo

Pretty good summary of Kucinich's views. I have a minor correction, though.

Kucinich supports tax-funded health care and education.
Any product that has a cost to produce cannot be free.

Indeed. Furthermore tax-funded really means it's money taking from people who do not want their money taken. That means, it's forcibly taken. If you refuse to pay your taxes, the police will show up to confiscate your property. If you refuse to allow them to do so, then you will be shot. Thus, "Free HealthCare" really means "Stealing and taking from others so you have a free ride".

[Brutha]

Thus, "Free HealthCare" really means "Stealing and taking from others so you have a free ride".

Taxing isn't any more stealing than the grocery store is stealing your money when you want to get something to eat. It is a duty of being a citizin just as paying for your groceries is a duty of being someone who takes groceries from a store.

[Fullcrum]

Sorry I haven't been upkeeping with the other candidates - no time for this thread it seems! You guys are right about the tax-funded part.

Kucinich is out of the race. Oh well, I'm disappointed .

In that respect let me post up the views of...hmm I dunno. It takes a bit of time and research to really get an accurate idea of someone's views. Who do we want?

How bout Ron Paul? I see his name a lot on these boards (hmm I wonder why) and he's my number 2 candidate, but I haven't done enough research yet on him.

[Gabo]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Taxing isn't any more stealing than the grocery store is stealing your money when you want to get something to eat. It is a duty of being a citizin just as paying for your groceries is a duty of being someone who takes groceries from a store.

Oh I forgot my mere existence places some requirement for me to pay tribute to the state. What was I doing, believing men had sovereign reign over their own lives. Next time I'll think twice before choosing to be born, in case I don't want to pay my taxes to our government overlords.


PS: I apologize for the sarcastic content. I just tend to get very upset when someone assumes I have a duty to someone who I have asked nothing from. Forced performing of duties for a master is slavery.

[Nelson]

Dennis Kucincih is the only Democrat running that I find to be worthy of my vote. My main belief is in personal and economic freedom for the individual -while Kucinich has very socialist views in the economics department he has got his head on straight when it coems ot giving us our liberty back. He's also against the war, which is a deciding ssue in this election.

[Brutha]

Oh I forgot my mere existence places some requirement for me to pay tribute to the state. What was I doing, believing men had sovereign reign over their own lives.

Citizins have sovereign reign over their own lives.
Witout being a citizen you are as sovereign as each animal. To be a citizen you have to take certain duties.
In addition you have still the choice not to pay taxes or obey law and wage war (which happens in the state of nature when there are conflicting interests) against the state, when you are willing to live with the consequences of excercising that freedom.

I have a duty to someone who I have asked nothing from.

So you aren't expecting anything from your goverment? It's competly irrevelant to you what laws are passed in congress? I don't think so.
At the moment it seems that you are asking not to fund either health care or education with tax money.
And yes, there is the altanative of not feeling yourself as a citizien but as someone in the state of nature where life is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short" (after Thomas Hobbes).

In general I would oppose Kucinich (if he would still run) for wanting to existing free trade. Having international trade wars isn't that much better than having other wars.

EDIT: Can someone change the title of my thread to NOT include Dennis Kucinich? That was not my intention at all - I don't even know how it got there! This is supposed to show the views of all candidates in one thread, kinda like a "reference guide",

I put it there. This forum is about discussion and that means it's better to have one thread per candidat. In general you can expect this forum to be more heavily moderated than the other ones.

[Gabo]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Citizins have sovereign reign over their own lives.
Witout being a citizen you are as sovereign as each animal. To be a citizen you have to take certain duties.
In addition you have still the choice not to pay taxes or obey law and wage war (which happens in the state of nature when there are conflicting interests) against the state, when you are willing to live with the consequences of excercising that freedom.

If I truly own my property, I should be sovereign over it. The government has no right to coerce me on my own property, and their ignorance of my rights does not justify their actions.

Governments are instituted among men to protect rights - not to protect government. Let's suppose that some institutions of government are in the interest of protecting rights. Even if that is the case, the government is still only granted power to execute strictly constitutional functions.

Any taxation or spending beyond these functions is unlawful and unjust.

So you aren't expecting anything from your goverment? It's competly irrevelant to you what laws are passed in congress? I don't think so.
At the moment it seems that you are asking not to fund either health care or education with tax money.

I personally believe that one who asks nothing of the government should owe nothing to it. But that is irrelevent to the real question at hand. (That of health care and education spending). My argument is that taxation for health care and education is theft because it is placed forcibly upon people, without their consent and without constitutional authorization. Do you disagree?

[Brutha]

If I truly own my property, I should be sovereign over it. The government has no right to coerce me on my own property, and their ignorance of my rights does not justify their actions.

If there are two parties that claim ownership of something and their is no state with a monopol of force, those two parties have to settle their dispute somehow, where everybody defendes his claim of property with force.

Governments are instituted among men to protect rights

They are not only instituted to protect rights but also to fullfil the Volonté générale.

My argument is that taxation for health care and education is theft because it is placed forcibly upon people, without their consent and without constitutional authorization.

If it would really be without constitutional authorization someone could sue at the Supreme Court against it (or probably first at a lower court).
The courts have the authority of interpreting the constitution and I doubt that they would rule that way.

Artiel 1 Section 8: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;

I would see both Education and public Healthcare as general Welfare.
But their could also be other reasons that the courts see to dismiss suits against the claim that spending for education is unlawful.