Steve, who will you support for president?

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by Livgivare

And what is more beautiful with Sweden is that we have a rule saying that the least expensive drug has to be the one that the person get at the drugstore. If you deside to have the original more expensive one you have to pay the "between-prize"...It is totally un-idealistic and true. Non of the political parties in Sweden would dare to say no to this. And even the party that is most alike the ones in USA is pro this system.

I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make here. In the US, insurance companies will typically only cover the cost of generic medication if it's available. If you want a brand name version you pay for it yourself. Sounds to me like you have the same thing.

Originally Posted by Livgivare

I guess that USA problem is that all government and health care system is ruled by lobbyist from the companies who will benefit most from not having the system we have in Sweden. And by the way among 25 developed rich countries USA is the only one who do not think like Sweden does and say it is a human right to give health care to the people in the way that everyone gets it.

I think if the US didn't spend (read: waste) so much money on its military, we would be able to spend it on government sponsored healthcare. However, I wouldn't support increases in taxes to achieve this. One of the reasons I'd never want to live in Europe is the insane taxes.

Let's take Sweden for instance. The corporate income tax is 28%, personal income tax goes up to 55% (topped only by Belgium according to this data), VAT goes up to 25%. The US has 15-35% corporate income tax, personal income tax goes up to about 35%, and sales tax in NJ (the analog of VAT) is 7%. That was just raised by 1% recently, so it was 6% before that. Some states have no sales tax, some have no income tax (so you only pay federal), and some have no property taxes. I lean to the right when it comes to financial issues, so I think I'll stay here thank you very much.

[tekomino]

I thought that Ron Paul sounded "mildly" interesting until I understood his position on couple of issues that do not make any sense whatsoever to me.

What I do not understand is how anyone in US can be against immigration and for creating the walled garden out of the country. Haven't we learned that walls don't do us any good? What happen to Berlin wall eh?

Most of the people would not even be here if there was no immigration.

Immigration is vital component of the US life and economy. Take just a look at the following list from MIT Technology Review magazine list of 35 Young Innovators for 2007 and count "native" American ones, please go ahead:

Technology Review: TR35 2007

Walled gardens do not work. I used to live in Germany where I was appalled by their stance towards immigrants. I hated it there, and would not return even if they pay me. Talk to any immigrant in Germany and you'll get pretty much the same story... All that while immigrants actually do the work that Germans do not want to do and are core component of their economy... Instead of embracing them they are unwelcome... No wonder they have problems with that...

US had opposite approach so far and I would argue that it worked great. Just take a look at that list that I posted link to. People from that list would not be able to do that in say Germany...

And if you say that you want to let in only smart well educated people in, well, that does not make sense either. Everyone is capable of doing great things given a chance...

Regarding his stance on foreign policy... While I knew from first day that going to Iraq was wrong thing to do and that it will not end up well, there are also great examples of where US intervention had great positive influence. I am familiar with the case of Bosnia where US intervened and had stopped the bloodshed that Europeans just have watched...

The easiest way to be always right is not do anything at all... You just can't make a mistake if you just sit and watch or can you?

[rinkuhero]

RP is not against immigration exactly. He's against *illegal* immigration. But he wants to *increase* *legal* immigration. He also doesn't really support building that fence along the border, he said he only voted for it because he agreed with the rest of the bill.

[Bene]

what the US needs IMO:

1. is a multi party parliamentary system.
2. Only Public campaign money should be allowed for candidates to use.
3. Absolutely No financial lobbying/ contributions from anybody.


I would also if given a choice live else where in the world... somewhere like scandinavia.

I think though that America's time as a power is coming to an end. Just like the Roman and the British Empire did.

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by Bene

I think though that America's time as a power is coming to an end. Just like the Roman and the British Empire did.

Not yet. But it'll happen eventually. Keep in mind that the Roman Empire lasted for around 500 years, and the British Empire for around 350 years. The US only became a major world power after World War II (essentially taking over from Britain).

[rinkuhero]

The Mongol Empire was only a power for 100 or so years though, and other empires like the Egyptian ones lasted thousands of years -- how long previous empires lasted doesn't really predict how long current ones will last.

[Brien]

From Ron Paul's website:

"End birthright citizenship. As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be citizens, the incentive to enter the U.S. illegally will remain strong."

Ron Paul? No thanks.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by tekomino

Most of the people would not even be here if there was no immigration.

US had opposite approach so far and I would argue that it worked great. Just take a look at that list that I posted link to. People from that list would not be able to do that in say Germany...

No offense, but I don't think you have the first idea what you're talking about. Do you even live in America??

When I was 16, in Columbus Ohio, I could get a grill cook job in any restaurant for about $9.00/hour. Now, ten years later, a grill cook job in Columbus, Ohio pays about $7.00/hour. This is a direct result of the massive influx of illegal immigration we've seen. Meanwhile, lower income and unskilled American workers end up out on the street.

Do you know why its called illegal immigration? Because its illegal.

Every county has immigration policy, its not something the US made up.

I'd suggest watching this video before further commenting on issues you have little to no knowledge of..

Immigration_by_the_Numbers

[tekomino]

Dan, I do proudly live in US and would not live anywhere else. The America my friend is about freedom. I am not for illegal immigration, but unless you have been in position to experience what kind of conditions force people into going through the nightmare which is illegal immigration you have no clue what you are talking about.

Most of people that immigrate illegally are taking that pretty much as last option. You have to be desperate to do that. Have you ever been that desperate? Kicking them all out is simply inhumane.

Regarding your cook job, that has nothing to do with illegal immigrants, it is called free market and jobs get valued and devalued as the normal course of the free economy evolution.

10 years ago I was paying 99c for gas and now I pay $3, are you going to blame immigrants for that too?

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

No offense, but I don't think you have the first idea what you're talking about. Do you even live in America??

When I was 16, in Columbus Ohio, I could get a grill cook job in any restaurant for about $9.00/hour. Now, ten years later, a grill cook job in Columbus, Ohio pays about $7.00/hour. This is a direct result of the massive influx of illegal immigration we've seen. Meanwhile, lower income and unskilled American workers end up out on the street.

Do you know why its called illegal immigration? Because its illegal.

Every county has immigration policy, its not something the US made up.

I'd suggest watching this video before further commenting on issues you have little to no knowledge of..

Immigration_by_the_Numbers

[munish]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Browne

How do you feel about this candidate Steve??

I don't vote in any elections because there is no point. The people and issues that make it onto our ballots are spawned from a very low level of consciousness. -Steve Pavlina.

Steve Pavlina Interview - Part 2 » Internet Business Blog - by Yaro Starak

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by tekomino

Most of people that immigrate illegally are taking that pretty much as last option. You have to be desperate to do that. Have you ever been that desperate? Kicking them all out is simply inhumane.

There are lots of desperate homeless people on the streets in my city. If they broke into my house would it be inhumane for me to kick them out? Of course not; thinking otherwise would incredibly short-sighted.



No matter how much immigration we allow in the name of compassion, it has very little effect on the impoverished of our world community. All it does is destroy our own economy. Again, see Immigration_by_the_Numbers.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by munish

I don't vote in any elections because there is no point. The people and issues that make it onto our ballots are spawned from a very low level of consciousness. -Steve Pavlina.

Steve Pavlina Interview - Part 2 » Internet Business Blog - by Yaro Starak

Quoted for truth.

[Brien]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

...
No matter how much immigration we allow in the name of "compassion" it has very little effect on the impoverished of our world community.

While I agree, I don't think Ron Paul's stance on the issues reflects much concern for the impoverished of our world community.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Brien

While I agree, I don't think Ron Paul's stance on the issues reflects much concern for the impoverished of our world community.

Good, I would hope not!

We're 9 trillion in debt and its rising expontenially. We're barely able to pay the interest.

You apparently have no idea how close to an economic meltdown we are.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Brien

While I agree, I don't think Ron Paul's stance on the issues reflects much concern for the impoverished of our world community.

While we're talking about our concern for the impoverished though, let's see which candidates support:

• Military action as an option in Iran: Clinton (D), Edwards (D), Giuliani (R), McCain (R), Romney (R)

• Sanctions in Iran: Clinton (D), Edwards (D), Giuliani (R), McCain (R), Obama (D), Romney (R)

• Torture by Homeland Security: Giuliani (R), Romney (R)

• Troop surge in Iraq: Giuliani (R), McCain (R), Romney (R)

All while we can't pay our debts already.

And you're worried about Ron Paul? Give me a break.

[tekomino]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

There are lots of desperate homeless people on the streets in my city.

And they don't want to do grill cook job for $7 or $6? Beats bumming on the street any day, or is that a choice?

And while on subject of immigrants taking those jobs away, who gave these jobs to them is something you should be concentrating on, not on people willing to do hard jobs cheap.

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

If they broke into my house would it be inhumane for me to kick them out? Of course not; thinking otherwise would incredibly short-sighted.

Uh, oh, now immigrants are only breaking and stealing??? That is short-sighted and plain stupid.

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

No matter how much immigration we allow in the name of compassion, it has very little effect on the impoverished of our world community. All it does is destroy our own economy.

This is another one of the stupid ones. I know immigrants that last year happily paid in taxes over $200,000 and I know the ones that paid last year taxes in neighborhood of millions... What do you have to say about that? What do you think value added to this country was, in order to be able to generate that kind of income?

[InterfaceLeader]

Originally Posted by Baltar

I think if the US didn't spend (read: waste) so much money on its military, we would be able to spend it on government sponsored healthcare. However, I wouldn't support increases in taxes to achieve this. One of the reasons I'd never want to live in Europe is the insane taxes.

We also have minimum wage, and a generally higher standard of living.

I've lived in both places.

I'm quite happy paying a reasonable level of taxes.

The problem with expensive healthcare is that it doesn't encourage preventative care. If I feel sick, I go to the doctor. I get a smear test done every year. If something goes wrong, it is much more likely to be picked up.

Whereas in America, people would try their own methods of getting better, by buying illegal drugs, trying home remedies - some of which may work, but not always, and were frequently applied in a superstitious way that completely undermined the point. This isn't to attack Americans - the people I was living with were on the poverty line, and they had no choice. But it scares me when someone will try and sweat a fever out of their young child when they have a temperature of 103+, rather than take them to the doctor.

National Healthcare is not perfect. There are waiting lists, overworked and underpaid doctors, and many other issues.

But I'm not particularly enamoured of the US version either, after being misdiagnosed on one occasion, and charged almost $2000 for the privilege, and correctly diagnosed but given the wrong kind of medicine for another (antibiotics don't work on viruses, ffs!).

Another part of the problem is that once you have a problem that prevents you from working, you lose insurance and income. There doesn't seem to be an easy method in the US for dealing with that - whilst I assume there is a welfare system, most people I knew refused to go on it, even if crippled with agonising health issues, because they saw it as leeching, or something.

I am not suggesting that my experience was universal to the US (I was in a fairly impoverished area of Ohio), but I am sure it was more than just an isolated incident.

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by InterfaceLeader

We also have minimum wage, and a generally higher standard of living.

I've lived in both places.

I'm quite happy paying a reasonable level of taxes.

The US has a minimum wage. I believe that each state can increase the minimum wage from the federal amount as it sees fit. The minimum wage is probably lower than in Europe, but it's there. High minimum wage is bad for the economy. As far as taxes go, I too have no problem paying a reasonable amount. However, a 55-59% cap is not exactly a reasonable amount in my book (55% in Sweden and 59% in Denmark). How much incentive would a person have to make a lot of money if the government took almost 60% of it? Some other European countries with the cap in the 50's include Netherlands, Norway, Belgium, and Finland [1].

The problem with expensive healthcare is that it doesn't encourage preventative care. If I feel sick, I go to the doctor. I get a smear test done every year. If something goes wrong, it is much more likely to be picked up.

I'm not at all suggesting that the healthcare system in the US is currently very good. It definitely needs reform. However, I also don't see the European model as being a lot better. The only real difference is that the burden of payment is distributed more evenly across the population. Yet as you said yourself, it's still not enough to provide quality healthcare to everyone. The US system favors those people who have more money, so it's more capitalism oriented. Modern healthcare is expensive, and I think that until it becomes a commodity somehow (probably via advancements in technology, especially nanotechnology) it'll never be possible to provide quality healthcare for everyone.

Another part of the problem is that once you have a problem that prevents you from working, you lose insurance and income. There doesn't seem to be an easy method in the US for dealing with that - whilst I assume there is a welfare system, most people I knew refused to go on it, even if crippled with agonising health issues, because they saw it as leeching, or something.

The US has welfare/unemployment payments, disability payments for those who can't work, and social security payments for people over 65. There's also medicaid and medicare available (both of these are used in different cases to help people pay for medical expenses). These programs probably don't provide as much support as their equivalents in Europe, but they do exist and they're far from nothing. If people choose not to use them when they're entitled to... It's their choice I suppose.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by tekomino

And while on subject of immigrants taking those jobs away, who gave these jobs to them is something you should be concentrating on, not on people willing to do hard jobs cheap.

Illegal immigrants generally have fake IDs.

Originally Posted by tekomino

Uh, oh, now immigrants are only breaking and stealing??? That is short-sighted and plain stupid.

It doesn't matter what they do, its illegal immigration.

If five guys break into your house, then one of them cooks you dinner, would they suddenly own your house? Of course not.

But they added value to the house! No, not really, they just raided your fridge.

Originally Posted by tekomino

I know immigrants that last year happily paid in taxes over $200,000 and I know the ones that paid last year taxes in neighborhood of millions... What do you have to say about that?

Are they here legally or not?

[Amadeus]

Steve of course would like there to be an end to term limits and have George W. Bush elected for a 3rd term.

[Amethyst]

I don't have anything against immigrants, but I will vote for Ron Paul because he's the only candidate who promises to dissolve the Federal Reserve. Most Americans don't know that the FR isn't federally owned. It is privately owned. When our country goes into more debt, we citizens have to give up more of our money (taxes) to pay down the interest which comes from us via the income tax. That interest on the nation's debt goes to the FR and its shareholders. It's a system of redistribution of wealth from the many to the few.

That's why we'll keep going to war after war even though we don't need to.

If you want more info on the income tax and the details on that, watch the movie Freedom to Fascism produced by Aaron Russo (who also produced Trading Places with Eddie Murphy.) It's also on Netflix. I found the director authorized version for free online: America: Freedom to Fascism - Director's Authorized Version

If you want to know the ins and outs of the money system the history of how it all got to be this way then I suggest the Money Masters video. I bought the DVD from their website, but you can watch it for free if you want to get a feel for it. The MoneyMasters Part 1 of 2 (That's part 1)

[TechnoGuyRob]

Damn it, why does Steve ignore this topic? He could at least give us a sentence, like "I don't care about the state of the United States, and voting for President is not of my concern."

[Andrew Brunelle]

Illegal immigration, from a global, universal perspecitve, is not really something us Americans should be talking about. If we take a look at our ancestors and how we just came in here and stole all this land from the Indians, then a few million illegal immigrants should not really bother us so much. The only reason we are here is because our ancestors came here to take land that did not really belong to them. I am not really someone who believes in the ownership of land anyway, but due to living in society, especially American society, there is such a value on it. I believe that if someone wants to live in a paticular place, that person has a right to. As long as they are not hurting anyone. It should be a fundamental human right. I know the consequences of this could be dire if all the third-world countries moved into America, but it would still be their right to get out of there. Just my two cents.

[Amethyst]

Originally Posted by TechnoGuyRob

Damn it, why does Steve ignore this topic? He could at least give us a sentence, like "I don't care about the state of the United States, and voting for President is not of my concern."

I'm sure he cares, Rob, but he's just human you know. He doesn't know everything.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Amethyst

That interest on the nation's debt goes to the FR and its shareholders. It's a system of redistribution of wealth from the many to the few.

Thanks for the links Amethyst. Very informative.

[tekomino]

Originally Posted by Amethyst

I...Ron Paul because he's the only candidate who promises to dissolve the Federal Reserve.

Honestly I think that is a pipe dream, no offense. Promising dissolution of Federal Reserve, IRS, Homeland Security etc. just will not happened. I am not sure how people cannot see this as nothing more than empty promises that cannot be kept. President and president alone cannot do that.

We all vote for these guys based on talk, which is cheap, when they actually do something completely different... How people do not see that is very interesting...

The best thing though, is that they are in office for 8 years and then it is someone else's turn.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by tekomino

We all vote for these guys based on talk, which is cheap, when they actually do something completely different... How people do not see that is very interesting...

Promising something and supporting something are two different things. When did Ron Paul promise any of the things you mention?

I'm sure RP has a voting record that you could research before writing unfounded spiels about him being all talk.

[tekomino]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Promising something and supporting something are two different things. When did Ron Paul promise any of the things you mention?

Promising is the wrong choice of words. OK he supports it. How that makes it different in context of seeking the votes and election when it really cannot be done? It is nice for sound bites, it has sensationalism but really not much substance.

Dan when you love him so much by all means go ahead marry him

[Dan.Linehan]

LOL..

Hey, he is an Doctor... I could do worse.