Mac v Windows

[Stephen]

I am considering purchasing 2 laptops/notebooks for me and the wife as part of our capital expenditure for the business (I never did like the taxman)
and would like to hear peoples views on the pros and cons of mac v windows notebooks.

ie Availability of software, user friendliness, general operation etc etc

I know there will be hardened stoics of both camps, but I would be pleased to hear your views on it.

Thanks.

[helgi]

Definitely a Mac for user friendliness, and a consistent user experience in general (software and hardware).

I'm heavily biased like most people when it comes to this topic, but there is now a particularly solid reason to go for an Apple notebook: you will be able to have both a Mac and a Windows machine at once.

The only drawback is the price of hardware when comparing on the basis of numbers and basic specs, but I'm sure anyone who already has a Mac will tell you that they're happy to pay a premium for them.

[escapee]

I just dont like using Mac , my feeling concurs with the article onWhy Mac sucks

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by helgi

but there is now a particularly solid reason to go for an Apple notebook: you will be able to have both a Mac and a Windows machine at once.

Explain??? Can you now run windows on Macs?

[Leonard]

but of course stephen. the new macbook allows you to run both OSX and Windows

Apple - MacBook

As a mac user, i'm heavily biased. But that's because since owning a Powerbook 4 years ago, it has not once crashed on me even until today despite being on sleepmode 95% of the time. I do not switch off my notebook at all, but merely leave it on sleepmode.

[linkerjpatrick]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Explain??? Can you now run windows on Macs?

Yes, you can. I'm doing it right now. It's best if you use one of the newer Intel Macs however as Virtual PC for the Mac is known of being really slow. I run Windows XP and a distro of Linux through a program called Parallels Desktop. In fact I'm pleasantly surprised the programs I was running like Office 2000 run faster in the virtual environment on my new MacBook Pro than my older desktop computer (which I converted to a Linux server for testing purposes).

Apple also has a program called Bootcamp which lets you create a seperate partition for running Windows and provides the needed drivers to run Windows with the Mac hardware. Of course you need the newer Intel based iMacs to run this.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Leonard

but of course stephen. the new macbook allows you to run both OSX and Windows

Apple - MacBook

As a mac user, i'm heavily biased. But that's because since owning a Powerbook 4 years ago, it has not once crashed on me even until today despite being on sleepmode 95% of the time. I do not switch off my notebook at all, but merely leave it on sleepmode.

Hi Leonard

Thanks I didnt know windows ran on macs. Cool.

PS Leaving you mac on standby is REAL bad for the environment and carbon emissions.

[KeithHandy]

Originally Posted by Stephen

PS Leaving you mac on standby is REAL bad for the environment and carbon emissions.

Can you back up this assertion?

[SamBeaven]

Try both, and choose whichever one you like the best. Neither is necessarily better than the other. Less maintenance on a mac, but also less 3rd party software (although the 3rd party stuff available is very good). But really, the best way to decide is to live with one for a while.

I'll never switch away from a mac now, mainly because there's nothing quite like Quicksilver on other platforms. Similar, but not quite as broad a range of plugins. Plus there are things like Applescript and Automator for OS X (Applescript is a os scripting language that's brilliant, Automator is a similar thing but simpler and GUI-based - you can set up a workflow to save time and even set it to run at specific times of day).

[Natz]

Macs rule, full stop, but I am very biased and as a designer/illustrator, a mac's capabilities are second to none (no, not willing to argue this point...)

It really depends on what you want to do with your machine I guess.

[mrpinto]

First of all, @escapee, let's try and keep this somewhat positive? The site you reference is a rather childish attempt at having an argument with marketing copy. It's like complaining that you bought a Bud Lite and weren't suddenly surrounded by beautiful women in bikinis.

Moving on, you should expect that most daily tasks will be equally possible on Mac or PC. If you're a power user, you'll find the PC more customizable in terms of third party software and hardware configurations. The Mac offers a much better command line, better/more consistent keyboard navigation, and the advantages of a *nix base.

If you're not a power user or if none of the above isn't really of concern to you, get a Mac. Macs are not invincible, but they are orders of magnitude more secure and marginally more reliable. Furthermore, my observations with relatives and my professional experience (software developer, UI design) suggest that Macs are generally easier for novices to use.

As a knowledge worker, I myself am much more productive in the Mac environment. Quicksilver (mentioned above) is undeniably important, but also Exposé (hard to explain, you have to try it) and general interface design. I still develop Windows apps as well, and when in Windows, I find myself constantlu irritated by chaotic menu organization and the number of clicks necessary to accomplish simple tasks. Hard to explain, but I find myself fighting the Windows interface whereas the OS X (Mac) design is more harmonious with my workflow (this despite many years more experience in Windows).

To wrap up a long response, I've found that when dealing with something that is as much a part of daily life as a computer, one remembers quality long after one forgets the minor premium in price. Forking over a little extra for my Macbook Pro is a decision that I've never regretted.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by KeithHandy

Can you back up this assertion?

Hi Keith

Its not an assertion its a fact,

Leaving your electrical goods on standby uses power. That power has to come from power stations. The power stations cause pollution and emit greenhouse gases. The greenhouses gasses damage the earths atmosphere. The damage to the earths atmosphere is causing global warming.

So...turn it off at the switch! (It wil even save you money!)

[Lotus]

It really depends on what you want to do with your hardware/software/wetware

I have both a mac laptop and laptop running Windows XP, and my brother uses Linux on at least one of his machines; I don't have the patience to get used to Linux, so I can't comment. (My desktop is also running XP, which I give a hearty "meh" in rating.)

For ease of integration with the most popular applications, Windows still rules. I used to run virtual pc on an older mac, but I hated vPC with a passion that rivals the greatest enmity of our time, mostly because of its speed, which clocked in somewhere around molasses going uphill in January. I no longer phrig with vPC, since I'm running Windows on 2 other computers.

Most viruses are still aimed at Windows platforms, which blows. I never get an infestation in my Mac.

If you're not rich, I don't recommend getting a Mac. Again, having one, and breaking things on it, as I am wont to do, seeing since it's a laptop and all, it irratates me to have to throw extra $ at it just because of the little "apple" logo on it.

Mac appeals to aestetics, when it should appeal to technology. Don't let the sleek cuteness distract you.

Although Mac can run Windows... and I often used to try to run Windows programs on my older Mac... I've never desired to run a Mac application on Windows, so the double OS on Macs is a moot point with me.

One of my closest friends is a tech guru, and she has switched back to Windows from Mac, finally deciding that Windows is just better. My brother is a comp. sci. major, and he hates Macs.

But again, you really need to use them both before you know what will appeal to you. If you are used to Windows, I recommend sticking with it. The novelty of a Mac is appealing, but the extra money you shovel into it is annoying.

If it were me, I'd go with a nice little Dell. . o O (No, I'd go with some big, fancy gaming monstrosity with a huge graphics card and a soundblaster and an extra-big screen. One that gets so hot it burns your lap when you game for too long, but even then it doesn't crash because something melted. )

[DanielBrenton]

Lotus --

I agree with what you're saying about Macs, but I still love them anyway. At the moment I'm working on a Mac Mini, which wasn't all that expensive. This isn't one of the machines that can boot Windows, and on an entirely visceral and illogical level I reject the idea of Windows on a Mac -- Bill Gates owns enough of the universe, he can stay out of my piece of it. Again, entirely an emotional reaction.

(It sounds like Steve Jobs has his idiosyncrasies as well.)

(See, I did that in a politically correct way, didn't I?)

Yes, Macs historically cost a lot more, and probably has to do with the proprietary approach Jobs went after at the outset. They were always the "Cadillac" of computers, and also historically were the favorite of graphic artists and musicians. I think it's probably fair to say those advantages have gone by the wayside.

And, yes, if both a Windows machine and a Mac became sentient and both ran for president, I'd vote for the Mac. (I suspect the negative campaigning from the Mac would be more cerebrally satirical.)

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by DanielBrenton

So, if both a Windows machine and a Mac became sentient and both ran for president, I'd vote for the Mac.

I'd vote for the Mac, too. This should not be reassuring; I vote for people don't have a chance in hell of winning... like Nader. <--- see? green!

[escapee]

Mac on Youtube

I'm not saying anything negative here , just have fun viewing the movie .

[SamBeaven]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Hi Keith

Its not an assertion its a fact,

Leaving your electrical goods on standby uses power. That power has to come from power stations. The power stations cause pollution and emit greenhouse gases. The greenhouses gasses damage the earths atmosphere. The damage to the earths atmosphere is causing global warming.

So...turn it off at the switch! (It wil even save you money!)

Mmmm... Not to get off topic here, but how do you know that less power is being generated because you switched off you computer? It's equally possible that the power companies could carry on generating the same amount of power and selling it to industry.

That's why microgeneration and microconservation, while all well and good, are no replacement for big alternative power generation projects.

But it will save you money, that's fer sure.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by SamBeaven

Mmmm... Not to get off topic here, but how do you know that less power is being generated because you switched off you computer? It's equally possible that the power companies could carry on generating the same amount of power and selling it to industry.

That's why microgeneration and microconservation, while all well and good, are no replacement for big alternative power generation projects.

But it will save you money, that's fer sure.

Hi Sam

It doesnt matter if they do or not. As long as each of us are environmentally conscious and all do the little things, they do in the end make a difference.

Its like saying 'no' to drugs. I know the next guy might say yes, but thats his choice. At least I can sleep with a clear conscience.

[Scientist]

I used to be a diehard PC fanatic, but I bought a PowerMac G5 desktop last year and I've been very happy with it. I've found it to be very easy and fun to use. I also like that I don't have to worry about spyware.

I've been able to find all the software I need for it, and a lot of my needs have been met by the software that comes with the computer and free software I've downloaded. I use OpenOffice for working with Word documents and making spreadsheets and I use the GIMP for photo editing. It also works with my Canon digital camera and Canon USB scanner.

I should note that I do own Apple stock (ticker: AAPL) which would certainly contribute to my bias, but I did buy the stock because I like the company's products.

[KeithHandy]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Hi Keith

Its not an assertion its a fact,

Leaving your electrical goods on standby uses power. That power has to come from power stations. The power stations cause pollution and emit greenhouse gases. The greenhouses gasses damage the earths atmosphere. The damage to the earths atmosphere is causing global warming.

So...turn it off at the switch! (It wil even save you money!)

A powerbook in sleep mode with a tiny little led light blinking surely uses some power, okay. Obviously not much, because you can leave it in sleep for days and days without recharging the battery. Do you also unplug your alarm clock when you leave the house? You can always plug it back in and reset it when you go to bed that night.

I think my issue is with "REAL bad", in all caps like that. Maybe you should worry less about a mac in sleep mode, and more about a football stadium where games are played after dark?

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by KeithHandy

A powerbook in sleep mode with a tiny little led light blinking surely uses some power, okay. Obviously not much, because you can leave it in sleep for days and days without recharging the battery. Do you also unplug your alarm clock when you leave the house? You can always plug it back in and reset it when you go to bed that night.

I think my issue is with "REAL bad", in all caps like that. Maybe you should worry less about a mac in sleep mode, and more about a football stadium where games are played after dark?

I worry about what 'I' am doing to the environment, Keith, and practice what I preach.

We are only custodians of the earth, we dont own it, regardless what your Title Deeds say.

From my small country Combat Climate Change - A message from the Minister for Communications, Marine & Natural Resources

[KeithHandy]

Originally Posted by Stephen

I worry about what 'I' am doing to the environment, Keith, and practice what I preach.

We're not talking about a clunky old late-nineties tower, we're talking about the tiny glowing light on a laptop that doesn't need to be plugged in for days on end. There's a tipping point where neither the energy cost *nor* the environmental effect is significant enough to warrant the loss of productivity that would come with rebooting an entire operating system, re-opening all your software and files, and trying to figure out where you left off in your work, multiple times a day. The laptops are designed such that you don't have to do this. There's no processor running, no fan, no backlight, nothing but an indicator.

If you were talking about my old home-build Windows box, I'd agree with you 100%.

[transcendence]

I don't know about the efficiency of mac laptops (and I must confess I rarely unplug mine), but I also think stand by power is something we should be conscious of. To quote this article

"Their results, published in 2000, revealed that standby power accounted for as much as 10% of household power-consumption in some cases. That same year, a similar study in France found that standby power accounted for 7% of total residential consumption. Further studies have since come to similar conclusions in other developed countries, including the Netherlands, Australia and Japan. Some estimates put the proportion of consumption due to standby power as high as 13%"

Back to the main topic of the thread: Go Mac!

[Lucas]

Living in a Tri-Platform home, I can say that there is validity to all the platforms and they all have upsides and downsides. I think that the winner in terms of the median is OSX, but let me tell you my experiences real quick.

Windows - The defacto standard, runs on tons of boxes, is cheaper up front when buying something like a Dell, and has the most choice in software. However, unless ou are running expensive, proprietary software like Premiere Pro or AutoCad, then there is comprable programs on the other two platforms. Windows is also the least secure, and most targeted by malware, adware and virii...and regardless of what the zealots tell you, smart browsing and security measures can only do so much. Let's also not forget the horrible filesystem Windows usues, and the registry, causing maintainence unneeded on the other two platforms. The biggest benefit is familiarity...you've been exposed to Windows all your life, so you most likely wont have to adapt. look where we are though Overcome your fear.

Linux - The Ubuntu revolution is making some headway for regular people. The biggest problem with Linux is the learning curve, which is smaller than people will tell you. I run Ubuntu on my main box, and dove right in with a 30 day trial. The first two weeks were akin to quitting smoking I think (never started that), but after learning a few conventions and solutions to common problems, it was a breeze. Linux is an agrarian society. You install 90% of the programs from within your system, you dont have go hunting for software on the web, nor do you have wizards and installers to deal with. The system is fast, stable and 99% of the software is FREE. If you don't need any niche software, and are a general computer user who is tech savvy...its worth a shot. If you arent tech savvy System76 sells laptops and desktops with Ubuntu preloaded, as well as hardware that is 100% compatible. The prices arent shabby either.

Mac OSX - Yes it's sleek, but you are interacting with the computer so UI is a bigger factor than most people want to give credit for. Lot's of tech nerds like to downplay it, but Winux is attempting to follow suit in the UI department. OSX is really a hybrid of Windows and Linux..its easy to use, looks great, fast and stable, and has the absolute BEST suite of included software (iLife apps trump anything included with a Dell or Gateway, and some may argue they beat comprable commercial software), another thing Winux zealots like to downplay. It's basically loaded with everything you need from the get go. The downside to that is the cost, though Apple Laptops are quite competitive these days, especially being able to run all 3 OSes. One benefit never preached is that since OSX is designed to run on a specific set of hardware specifications, Apple can fine tune their OS to perform better since it will only be running on a certain set of boxes...Windows has to run on the widest range of harware (Linux can be tweaked once you learn it) Kind of like game consoles, which pump out graphics better than their comprable PC counterparts (the Xbox had a 733mhz CELERON!), for that same reason.

If you guys have any questions, I tried to be as non biased as possible.

[Adam]

I've seen this debate a million times... In the end, it comes down to the needs of the user.

If the need is cost (which, if it is a tax write-off, is minimal), Linux/BSD wins, hands down. This includes third party software.

If the need is compatibility (not between the OS and the hardware, but with files being distributed to different computers), then it is a toss-up between Windows and Linux/BSD.

If the need is stability, then it is a toss-up between Mac and Linux/BSD, though I haven't had my Windows box crash for nearly six months.

If the need is third party software (i.e., you actually want to do something), then it is a toss-up between Windows and Linux/BSD.

If the need is an abysmally shallow learning curve, then Mac is the way to go.

If the need is graphics rich content, then Mac is the way to go.

If the need is the capability to create graphically rich content, then Windows is the way to go.

If the need is to have a box that sits in the corner and does stuff for you (i.e., a web server), then netBSD (not Linux) is the way to go.

I've tried all four repeatedly. I am a computer nerd, and my wife is a photographer. Overall, Windows meets our needs the most consistently. Despite the hype, Mac doesn't seem to be the best system for dealing with digital photos, and as a nerd, it doesn't even come close to fulfilling my needs; Macs simply aren't flexible enough. When I'm able to restructure my network (two weeks, hopefully), I'll have a full-time web server running netBSD, stripped of everything else, and my only limitation will be my bandwidth.

The limitations of each are plain:

Windows is the market leader. Along with the good that comes from being the leader, such as increased support with hardware, software, and wetware, it also means that it is the target for scumware. Every OS that becomes the market leader will have the same problems with scumware. Exploits are inevitable.

Mac is built only for proprietary hardware. That means that, obviously, it is priced twice to three times more than comparable systems that use other OSes. It also means that it doesn't support anywhere close to the percentage of applications that other systems can. Sure, it runs fast, but so do race cars... The problem with race cars is that you don't use them on the street.

Linux/BSD is open source. While that is great as far as cost, it also means a much steeper learning curve. Without an initial investment in time, it might as well be installed on a boat anchor. Once that hurdle is overcome, though (and it doesn't take nearly as long as most people expect), the total cost of ownership is roughly equivalent to your hardware, power bill, and ISP charges.

BSD, besides being open source as mentioned above, is a server OS, right down to its kernel. Not recommended for desktop use. (I still like it better than Linux, though, for that very reason.)

My recommendation for general purpose users who specialize in one area:

Get a Windows machine and disconnect all 'default' access to the internet. This means, if you have a wireless access point (since most laptops sold today have wireless cards), never put your computer in the 'DMZ' and do not use port forwarding unless you absolutely have to (if you don't know what I mean, then when you see these option in your AP's config, don't touch them). Also, while you're at it, put a password on your access point... There are *far* too many insecure APs out there, and if someone uses your AP for illegal purposes, guess whos door the feds will be knocking on.

Once your computer has a one-way connection to the internet, ditch Internet Explorer... You can't remove it completely, but you can hide it pretty well by deleting all of the bookmarks leading to it. Your first and only use of IE should be to download either Firefox or Opera. (Note: If Firefox ever achieves 50% of the market share, drop it. Remember what I said about Window's problem being its market share? Yep, it could happen to Firefox as well, or any other browser for that matter.)

Once that is done, *then* you can follow safe internet practice and be more secure than the Mac guys, who are silently feeding every advertiser the entirety of their browsing habits.

[Milo Riano]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Explain??? Can you now run windows on Macs?

Why would you ever think of running windows in MAC in the first place. Would you try running MAC on windows? Think about that.

I don't care about technical arguments from both sides, all I care about is who has the bigger consumer usage between the two. That makes my life simpler and don't have to worry what the next person I am doing business with would require in format.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Milo Riano

Why would you ever think of running windows in MAC in the first place. Would you try running MAC on windows? Think about that.

Hi Milo

I wouldnt! I was just surprised that it was so.

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by Milo Riano

Why would you ever think of running windows in MAC in the first place. Would you try running MAC on windows? Think about that.

Because you can? And because you may need to use Windows sometimes but don't want to buy a PC just for that? And if I could use OS X on a PC, I sure would because it would mean not having to buy an expensive Mac. Which is exactly why it will never be possible.

[SamBeaven]

Originally Posted by Milo Riano

Why would you ever think of running windows in MAC in the first place. Would you try running MAC on windows? Think about that.

It's also very handy if you're a web designer and want to test your work in IE 6 / IE 5.5.

[Kristoffer]

Hi,

First: I have had only MACs and really like to work with them. And they are very safe in terms of viruses and hacking. (At least up until now)

The problem with Macs is that things do not work properly on them. I have a new iMac G5 and there is no Internet Explorer anymore for Mac. When I view my blogs at a friends house not everything looks the way I created it.

I am producing blogs with Wordpress and small things make me feel like I am on the B-team working with mac. The toolbar in Wordpress does not show up at all in Safari, it has one look in Firefox and yet another in Netscape.

Embedding videos gives me problems in the new version of Wordpress with Netscape, so for that I use Safari. This puts me in a really "third world" mode and makes me wanna by a PC.