How to start learning web programming?

[Curtis2011]

I would like to build some web programming skills over the next few years as I get more involved with online business and stuff like that.

I am currently very competent with html and css, but that is the limit of my skill set.

Where do I even begin? Javascript, php, mysql, ajax, etc? I don't know what to start learning first. I also don't really know the difference between what these are and what they can do.

At first I am simply interested in learning a few things for building interactive sites, rather than static sites. Maybe starting out easy with "click this button and it loads this content onto the page without refreshing" or something like that.

Suggestions?

[nessesque]

I have some nicely commented html code on github.

WICSE/public_html

[nessesque]

+ javascript (basic popups, logins etc..)

[GraemeMcA]

You could try learning a bit of php - hosting is half the price of windows/asp and it's relativly easy to pick up. I like learning from books and SAMS guides - InformIT: Imprints > Sams Publishing are very intuitive. You might also consider a free content mnagement system like Drupal or Joomla - they can be got up and running with little or no programming experience and you can usually find a prewritten module for any task you want to do woth zero scripting required . It would be good to know what the task is... I could give you more specific advice.

[Brutha]

Client side you will have to learn Javascript. When you do it's a good idea to use JQuery which is a library which makes things easier.

Server side is more complicated.
You have the choice between multiple languages.
You could be boring and choose php. It's a popular language but a lot of people hate it.

You could be also be the cool kid. In that case you choose a modern framework such as Django or Ruby on Rails.

[GraemeMcA]

Hi Brutha

I don't see why you consider php "boring", as you say it's popular therefore is well supported by hosting companies with a wealth of development resources online. Also most dynamic websites on the net are bulit in either php or asp. Learning common languages opens up a lot of doors in the job market or when offering freelance services if this is something Curtis is considering....

[Curtis2011]

I am just looking for what is the best path to learn programming from. Should I start with php? Or with Javascript? Or do I need to learn both at the same time?

etc.

For instance, I currently have a programmer building me a web page where people can select product criteria, and the page returns the products that match the criteria. It is done in php I believe, not sure what else.

In the future I would like to eventually be able to build all of this myself, as I enjoy building web pages and I think I would enjoy programming too. But where do I start with learning that?

(I am not looking to do freelance programming or get an office job as a programmer - just use programming for my own websites to increase functionality)

[Brutha]

Learning common languages opens up a lot of doors in the job market or when offering freelance services if this is something Curtis is considering....

Django and Ruby on Rails are both common languages. There a wealth of tutorials for both of them.

It's true that php is more common but that doesn't make it a good language. Given the way php works it's much easier to build security holes into your application then when you use Django or Ruby on Rails.

It's also something cultural. A lot of the php tutorials don't teach proper programming but ulgy programming. They don't teach ideals such as code reuse.

[cylon]

Javascript is a tough one because it can do so much, it's hard to know where to get started. And any books or videos I've seen assume you know how to do it anyway, which isn't very helpful. I sort of took a time out with Javascript and startled learning jQuery instead. In a way it's cheating but it also allows you to get stuff done fast, and if you are comfortable with HTML and CSS it's easy to get in there and play around if the code isn't doing something you want.

Just about everything you want to accomplish with JS has already been created as a download through jQuery, basically. And if I ever have problems I go to codingforums.com which has been very helpful.

But you might do better with JS than me. I have a book called "Head First Javascript", it's a big workbook I got off Amazon. It is a paint by numbers book and if you are willing to stick with it that might work for you.

For me online video tutorials are the way to go. I subscribe to Lynda.com's video tutorials and they have everything on there, you download all the exercise files and follow along with the video. They have a few pretty thorough JS section there, along with just about everything else.

I don't know PHP but after having been on several job interviews related to graphics and web design recently, I can tell you that JS and php are equally desired, but php is considered to be the easiest of the two to learn, and might give you more immediate gratification. It also seems to be requested more in job ads, which I know you aren't worried about but it's something to consider.

You could start learning php the old fashioned way and then maybe doing some jQuery to get your Javascript sea-legs.

So that's all I can tell you. Like you I'm very comfortable with HTML and CSS but the rest of it can seem pretty daunting.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Curtis2011

I would like to build some web programming skills over the next few years as I get more involved with online business and stuff like that.

I am currently very competent with html and css, but that is the limit of my skill set.

Where do I even begin? Javascript, php, mysql, ajax, etc? I don't know what to start learning first. I also don't really know the difference between what these are and what they can do.

At first I am simply interested in learning a few things for building interactive sites, rather than static sites. Maybe starting out easy with "click this button and it loads this content onto the page without refreshing" or something like that.

Suggestions?

You need to be pretty careful here because any of these languages and technologies will get you where you want to go, eventually. Whether through 6 months of study or 3 years. Learning lower level languages like PHP and Javascript will take a long time before you learn how to build a complete web app with them.

On the other hand, learning a higher level technology like Ruby on Rails, Joomla, or WordPress will get you where you need to go pretty quickly. RoR is lower level than the other two, so if you're already pretty proficient with WordPress, then RoR is a good way to delve a little deeper.

[James81]

Yeah, most of the web right now is built with Javascript and php, so I would definitely start there.

[SatvikBeri]

Originally Posted by VinceG

You need to be pretty careful here because any of these languages and technologies will get you where you want to go, eventually. Whether through 6 months of study or 3 years. Learning lower level languages like PHP and Javascript will take a long time before you learn how to build a complete web app with them.

On the other hand, learning a higher level technology like Ruby on Rails, Joomla, or WordPress will get you where you need to go pretty quickly. RoR is lower level than the other two, so if you're already pretty proficient with WordPress, then RoR is a good way to delve a little deeper.

This is a fantastic summary, and I would agree completely: learning PhP will make building what you want slower than learning a framework or higher level language, especially if you don't want programming to be your full-time focus.

Judging from the outside it seems like RoR strikes the right balance of customizability and ease of use.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by SatvikBeri

This is a fantastic summary, and I would agree completely: learning PhP will make building what you want slower than learning a framework or higher level language, especially if you don't want programming to be your full-time focus.

Judging from the outside it seems like RoR strikes the right balance of customizability and ease of use.

What's best with languages like php and javascript is to know how to read technical documentation and APIs and the like. If you can do that, then you can customize code other people have written, without doing all the hard work of learning best practices and . Unfortunately, you need a lot of technical know-how to be able to properly read these things, or a very logical mind. But it's pretty good practice.

[ellie]

Can someone explain to me what ROR does? Everyone I have heard rave about ROR, but I don't quite get what it is...is it a form of PHP, does it do what PHP does? Why would you choose ROR over learning PHP?

The "Head First" books like Cylon suggested are really good, because they approach exercises for different learning styles, I think they're excellent books! I'm going through the PHP one now. But I am trying to get better at ActionScript as I want to make a game, so I'm juggling the two.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by ellie

Can someone explain to me what ROR does? Everyone I have heard rave about ROR, but I don't quite get what it is...is it a form of PHP, does it do what PHP does? Why would you choose ROR over learning PHP?

The "Head First" books like Cylon suggested are really good, because they approach exercises for different learning styles, I think they're excellent books! I'm going through the PHP one now. But I am trying to get better at ActionScript as I want to make a game, so I'm juggling the two.

Ruby on Rails is a web development framework. A lot of the hard work is done for you when you use it and all you have to do is work on the app logic itself. It uses the Ruby language, but it defines its own dialects of Ruby that are specially suited for this type of development. It's a very opinionated framework, it wants you to do things a certain way, and punishes you if you don't. Luckily, that way is shown to you by great tutorials.

[Curtis2011]

Hmm all of this sounds complicated.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Curtis2011

Hmm all of this sounds complicated.

What did you expect? That the skills and crafts that many build successful, lucrative careers on would be easy and simple? Heh.

[Curtis2011]

Originally Posted by VinceG

What did you expect? That the skills and crafts that many build successful, lucrative careers on would be easy and simple? Heh.

No.

What I meant was, it appears there are tons of different programming languages that can all be used to accomplish basically the same thing, only in different ways.

While that was pretty much what I was expecting, I was hoping there would at least be an agreed-upon "best language for beginners" or something like that that is not incredibly hard to learn, but still very useful to learn as well.

It appears there is no such agreement though.

[Brutha]

It's a very opinionated framework, it wants you to do things a certain way, and punishes you if you don't.

Exactly. It makes things a bit harder but it teaches you good habits.

[cylon]

you have to decide if you are a programmer because you like programming or if you want to make websites. There is no agreed way because not everyone has the same goal. I would suggest not wasting too much time learning the "right" stuff. Why not learn a little jQuery, a little php, and some CMS and see how it all fits together?

There's no one right way to do it. I learn as I need to.

I mentioned codingforums.com, you might want to check out CSS-tricks as well, they cover all these topics in practical ways.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Curtis2011

No.

What I meant was, it appears there are tons of different programming languages that can all be used to accomplish basically the same thing, only in different ways.

While that was pretty much what I was expecting, I was hoping there would at least be an agreed-upon "best language for beginners" or something like that that is not incredibly hard to learn, but still very useful to learn as well.

It appears there is no such agreement though.

Take a look at the code the websites you most frequently visit are built with, dude.

Any forum you visit is most likely built with php (that's because the two most popular forums out there are phpbb and vbulletin -- which both use php).

Facebook is built with php (surprised?).

Wordpress uses php.

Flickr even uses php.

Despite whatever opinions you read, a large portion of the net is *built* with php, so to me that suggests it's a bit of a no brainer to learn that one first.

[GraemeMcA]

Just to round this off... whatever language you learn, read a good book on system development principles like scalable application design, annotated code, database normalisation (if your website is serious it should be database driven) and testing plans. Brutha I can see where you’re coming from now but php as a language isn’t necessarily to blame, sometimes programmers can get stuck in the rut of quick fixes and procedural thinking as opposed to seeing the big picture of the project they’re working on.

Curtis it sounds to me like you need to bring someone on board with this but read up on project management first and make sure that you get the application you NEED. Also try to think of where you’ll be in a few years’ time, if you see a possible need for your site connecting to your accounts package or automatically updating your courier with delivery details make sure that your application is scalable enough to allow for this…Otherwise you could end up wasting a lot of time and money with programmers charging you while they try to figure out what the hell their predecessors were doing while making matters worse themselves.
Don’t be scared it can be fun to watch a system grow

[ssandra]

Why not start with getting a basic understanding of what each is and what each can do best?

Learn the basics, not the How to, but the what and why of each language so that from that moment on you can decide which is most interesting to you. That way you'll have more general knowledge and can delve deeper into any that seems most interesting to you.

[Brutha]

Despite whatever opinions you read, a large portion of the net is *built* with php, so to me that suggests it's a bit of a no brainer to learn that one first.

Php is old technology. A decade ago there was no Ruby on Rails.

The projects that you listed ate a lot of man hours.
If you are a solo-developer or try to do something in a small team you want to have a language that allows you to get things done faster.

Twitter is Ruby on Rails. Groupon is Ruby on Rails. Hulu is based on Ruby on Rails.

Brutha I can see where you’re coming from now but php as a language isn’t necessarily to blame

It's about keeping the right intellectual company.
Staying away from the people who program in php and keeping the company of the people who program in Ruby on Rails means that you will likely become a better programmer.

[Lil Chris]

Lot of good info here... All I have to say is: Comment your code, comment your code, comment your code...

// this does this
*code, code, code

// this does that
*code, code, code

// I like cheese
*code, code, code

[SatvikBeri]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Php is old technology. A decade ago there was no Ruby on Rails.

Exactly. There is a lot of software written in COBOL, but learning COBOL today would almost certainly be a waste of time-it would take forever to develop anything and it wouldn't pay very well if you worked for someone else.

Unless you specifically want to modify pages built in PHP (for example wordpress templates) you probably should learn a more modern framework.

[Angelique]

What are the prerequisites to learning the languages mentioned (php, RoR, JS)? Are they all different.. or can you get started after knowing a bit of html and css? And do they all require a database language to be learned alongside them (ex: php + mysql)?

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Angelique

What are the prerequisites to learning the languages mentioned (php, RoR, JS)? Are they all different.. or can you get started after knowing a bit of html and css? And do they all require a database language to be learned alongside them (ex: php + mysql)?

To use php or JS properly, you need to learn all the other languages that make up the application stack. You need php, JS, and SQL to program a good app.

[Brutha]

To use php or JS properly, you need to learn all the other languages that make up the application stack. You need php, JS, and SQL to program a good app.

For php that true. If you use Ruby on Rails or Django you don't need to learn SQL.

You still need to learn JS/JQuery. For the record, you really don't want to use JS without JQuery. If you don't use JQuery or another framework you just make your life harder.

[Asmoday]

I can't recommend the "Head First Labs" series of books enough, very good sources of instruction for "from the ground up" kind of situations.