Game Development?

[Niki]

I'm learning C# for a while now and I was wondering what to do with my programming skills. I had all kinds of ideas, like developing a social website, developing some kind of goal setting software etc. I have never seriously considered game development as something I could do. Just a few moments ago I came across XNA. XNA is a game development framework for Visual Studio and is pretty nice to work with I think. I have no experience at all in game programming (except for making pacman one time) but it seems to be something that I would really like to do.

I know Steve had a successful game development business, and I was wondering if there are others that are doing the same in these forums? If you know good resources for game developers(articles in marketing, development, gameplay etc..) . I was also wondering if there is still a market left for one man game development businesses?

I just got a book(pdf) about XNA and I'm going to see what it's all about now.

[JimOfferman]

There is a large game development community over at GameDev.net - all your game development needs. It's a great site for when you are just starting out...

Other useful websites:
Gamasutra - The Art & Business of Making Games
DevMaster.net - Your source for game development

Microsoft hosts a mailinglist dedicated to DirectX programming (DirectXDev); I'm sure they have something similar for XNA.

Another great list to be on is GD Algorithms. The topics discussed on this list are pretty advanced, but that just means there is lots to be learned!

I have a longer list of resources, but those are pretty much all advanced computer graphics topics (which is my area of expertise). You can PM me if you are ready for those

You might also want to check out Control, which is a magazine dedicated to Dutch and Belgian game development. It will not help you with your programming, but it makes for a good read on your toilet breaks...

Good luck! Have fun!

[Niki]

Hey, thanks Jim, those are some great resources.

And yeah, I'm just starting out so I'm not yet ready for that advanced stuff! :-)

What excactly is it what you do with computer graphics? You're a game developer?

[JimOfferman]

Yeah, I'm a game developer. I'm one of five programmers working on the graphics engine used in a certain game about a certain female archeologist (the company I work for, Nixxes, is a long time contractor for Eidos/Crystal Dynamics)

It's a pretty swell day time job to have as a fledging musician

[Niki]

Ow that's cool! It seems that C++ is really the way to go for some serious game programming. I'm currently studying applied computer science(in Belgium) and almost all the coding is done in C# (and a little bit of Java). From the little research I have done it seems that small indie game development is feasible in C# en XNA. What I love is that it's possible to sell XNA games on both Windows and Xbox. What I like less is that I'm working pretty high level (XNA, managed code). But for small indie games this shouldn't be a problem right(performance wise)?

Anyways, cool to "know" a Nixxes developer :-D.

[Blueskied]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Yeah, I'm a game developer. I'm one of five programmers working on the graphics engine used in a certain game about a certain female archeologist (the company I work for, Nixxes, is a long time contractor for Eidos/Crystal Dynamics)

Wow, as someone who struggles writing small retro 2d games i always wondered if it's very complicated to write such stuff - 3d technology. That's where the real hardcore programmers are (like John Carmack) ?

[JimOfferman]

C#, XNA and managed code aren't going to stand in your way of creating great games.

While C++ is currently the de facto standard in most areas of game development, I can see how we might all move up to higher level languages in the near future.

After all, when I first started out (half a life ago), all serious game developers were using C or even handcrafted ASM to get maximum performance out of the 486s and Pentium Is that reigned back then.

We still have a few spots of C and ASM in our code today, but no one in their right mind would write the kind of engine that runs a top tier console title entirely in such low level languages.

A decade from now, people will probably start saying the same thing about C++.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Blueskied

Wow, as someone who struggles writing small retro 2d games i always wondered if it's very complicated to write such stuff - 3d technology. That's where the real hardcore programmers are (like John Carmack) ?

Things can get pretty hardcore or they can almost be as simple as your 2d games. It all depends on what kind of game you want to build. Obviously, if you want to create a blockbuster title with jaw dropping graphics, things can get pretty complex...

[Niki]

Doing some further research it's pretty clear to me that XNA is not really what I want. It hides too much stuff I want to understand. I know in the end using C# and XNA will shorten the learning curve drastically instead of learning let's say C++ and OpenGL or Direct3D. But when I look at the ammount of books available about C++, Game Programming in C++ etc, I think C++ is a winner. Especially when I start to consider that C++ is asked for on many different job applications, including game developer jobs. So Jim, if you are here somewhere, I need an experts voice. In your opinion, do you think it is worth learning C++ ? And what is your opinion on OpenGL VS Direct3D. If I choose to go the C++ way I lean more towards OpenGL, but I really am a newbie at this so I don't take my own opinion that serious yet.

[ellie]

How cool Jim, that would be a pretty awesome job. I never knew you were a games programmer, I just thought you were a full-time musician.

When I was a kid I always wanted to create computer games, especially targeted for women, as I loved playing adventure games as a kid, police, kings quest you name it I played it. I think I would of been quite good at it - ha ha! There was a game long before "The Sims" wish I could remember it, which really got me excited about gaming for women. It was a similar concept to the sims, although you didn't move around in a 3d environment, but basically you would move through life. I remeber thinking god if someone developed a game like this but delved into interactions much more, it would be a winner! Probably 10 years later "The Sims" came along Even today I thinking they're really lacking games targeted for women. We need more games for women. I don't know about what a lot of other women like, but I know I love the "role playing" adventure games, which seem to be a dying breed.

I wish I had a hard core coding mind. I reckon I could pick-up some of it, but I don't think I could ever master it completely.

[Trezker]

Originally Posted by Niki

Doing some further research it's pretty clear to me that XNA is not really what I want. It hides too much stuff I want to understand. I know in the end using C# and XNA will shorten the learning curve drastically instead of learning let's say C++ and OpenGL or Direct3D. But when I look at the ammount of books available about C++, Game Programming in C++ etc, I think C++ is a winner. Especially when I start to consider that C++ is asked for on many different job applications, including game developer jobs. So Jim, if you are here somewhere, I need an experts voice. In your opinion, do you think it is worth learning C++ ? And what is your opinion on OpenGL VS Direct3D. If I choose to go the C++ way I lean more towards OpenGL, but I really am a newbie at this so I don't take my own opinion that serious yet.

Yeah and when you've learned to reinvent all the wheels you'll see just how easy everything would have been if you had just used the wheels that were already available.

I'm still using C++ though, I know the basics of C# and see all the potential but I'm so used to the C++ way so it's hard to change.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Niki

So Jim, if you are here somewhere, I need an experts voice. In your opinion, do you think it is worth learning C++ ? And what is your opinion on OpenGL VS Direct3D. If I choose to go the C++ way I lean more towards OpenGL, but I really am a newbie at this so I don't take my own opinion that serious yet.

Learning C++ when you want to become a game developer is definitely worth while. Again, the majority of commercial games is written in this language.

As far as graphics APIs are concerned, I would start with Direct3D 9. It's the most widely used and comes with a very large utility library (D3DX) that handles stuff like loading textures and math for you. It currently also has a cleaner API, especially if you want to do present day stuff like shadow maps, render targets, etc. (OpenGL 2.0 looks good in this regard as well, though, but it is not as readily available)

Once you are fully comfortable working with 3D, you'll find that you can easily switch between the two APIs.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by ellie

How cool Jim, that would be a pretty awesome job. I never knew you were a games programmer, I just thought you were a full-time musician.

Nope, not yet. A future as a full-time musician is in my cards, though... but it will be a little while longer before that happens. I have no problems with having a kick-ass game development job while I "wait" for that

I don't know about what a lot of other women like, but I know I love the "role playing" adventure games, which seem to be a dying breed.

RPGs are not a dying breed, not by a long shot. There's World of Warcraft, Oblivion, Age of Conan, Diablo III is coming, a new Knights Of The Old Republic is on the way, Fallout 3 is also landing soon...

What is a bit of a dying breed are the classic adventure games like Myst and The 7th Guest. Still, there is hope, because there is at least one publisher dedicated to that type of game:
The Adventure Company Adventure Games for PC and Console

I wish I had a hard core coding mind. I reckon I could pick-up some of it, but I don't think I could ever master it completely.

No one can. There's so much to learn and things change so rapidly, that there really isn't anyone who can claim to have fully mastered the field.

[cardano]

Originally Posted by Niki

I was also wondering if there is still a market left for one man game development businesses?

That's what I'm doing right now and it's paying very well. Even though the industry has transformed over the years, it's still similar to what Steve was doing with his independent game development studio back in the days.

Here's my latest game: Forgotten Riddles: The Moonlight Sonatas - Free Download Game from Shockwave

[Blueskied]

Originally Posted by ellie

When I was a kid I always wanted to create computer games, especially targeted for women, as I loved playing adventure games as a kid, police, kings quest you name it I played it...I don't know about what a lot of other women like, but I know I love the "role playing" adventure games, which seem to be a dying breed.

Your story reminds me of Amanda Fae. She's developed the adventure RPG Aveyond which is quite successful.
Amaranth Games - Aveyond

Originally Posted by cardano

Here's my latest game: Forgotten Riddles: The Moonlight Sonatas - Free Download Game from Shockwave

Hi Steve! Didn't know you are a member of this forum,too.

[Niki]

Hey Cardano, good to know that it's paying very well! The screenshots of your game look very nice. I think that you have some great graphical skills.

I finally decided to go with XNA and C# btw, because of the unnecessary complexity of C++.

I'm making my first animation right now, it's a walking sheep! :-D. Digging further in XNA I really start to like it. I can imagine how complex things can become when developing games, and it's a god given that I can work in a language that I'm used to work in.

When my sheep animation is ready, I will post it here (youtube). I have to admit, making Games (or beginner animations) is even more addicting than playing games!

[Trezker]

Originally Posted by Niki

I have to admit, making Games (or beginner animations) is even more addicting than playing games!

Oh just you wait, you'll reach the Informed pessimism stage too some day.

[Niki]

Originally Posted by Trezker

Oh just you wait, you'll reach the Informed pessimism stage too some day.

LoL

But don't be worried! I have Steve's book, and I decided my self-discipline will win! :-D And I will soon be an informed optimist, and I will live happily and forever!

And play a lot of games...

[JimOfferman]

Hey Niki,

With regard to the one man shop comment... if you have an Xbox 360, you should definitely check out Braid, which was helmed by one man named Jonathan Blow (although he did hire an artist for the artwork).

Another tip I can give you is this: make a version of tic tac toe (or some other established and simple game) that runs on your mom's computer. Why? Because the hardest thing about making games is finishing them. It's good to learn what it takes to finish one with a very simple project... so you know what you're in for when you start frying bigger fish.

Good luck!

[Jamie]

Hi Niki,

If you haven't already, you should defo check out ...

Indiegamer Developer Discussion Boards - Powered by vBulletin

Jamie.

[Niki]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Hey Niki,

With regard to the one man shop comment... if you have an Xbox 360, you should definitely check out Braid, which was helmed by one man named Jonathan Blow (although he did hire an artist for the artwork).

Another tip I can give you is this: make a version of tic tac toe (or some other established and simple game) that runs on your mom's computer. Why? Because the hardest thing about making games is finishing them. It's good to learn what it takes to finish one with a very simple project... so you know what you're in for when you start frying bigger fish.

Good luck!

I have finished my animation. I think I did it in an unconventional way for 2d. I painted all the body parts in paint.net. Then I have build the body with code. Next time I'm going to paint a whole body, and change it in different ways, so when I play them fast I get an animation.

Now I plan on making a simple 2D platform game. I want to build a one screen level where my character can walk, jump and climb. So I'm going to have to put basic physics in it, collision detection and some more advanced input detection. I'm really loving this!

Here is a screenshot of my first animation. I can't capture it as video because I don't have the software.



@Jamie. thanks for the forums! I have bin reading quite some posts there, and it looks like it is a strong community there!

[cardano]

Originally Posted by Niki

Hey Cardano, good to know that it's paying very well! The screenshots of your game look very nice. I think that you have some great graphical skills.

Actually all I do is delegation, game design, and some programming. Three talented artists are responsible for the beautiful graphics in this game.

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Another tip I can give you is this: make a version of tic tac toe (or some other established and simple game) that runs on your mom's computer. Why? Because the hardest thing about making games is finishing them. It's good to learn what it takes to finish one with a very simple project... so you know what you're in for when you start frying bigger fish.

This is one of the most important advice, ever. I'll add onto this: Create an artificial deadline on your small projects.

[Niki]

Originally Posted by cardano

Actually all I do is delegation, game design, and some programming. Three talented artists are responsible for the beautiful graphics in this game.

This is one of the most important advice, ever. I'll add onto this: Create an artificial deadline on your small projects.

Good idea about the deadline! I will be using that one. Then I can incorporate a course I'm following on software engineering on the game making process. Some great real life practice I get for free here.

[Vdesign]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Yeah, I'm a game developer. I'm one of five programmers working on the graphics engine used in a certain game about a certain female archeologist (the company I work for, Nixxes, is a long time contractor for Eidos/Crystal Dynamics)

It's a pretty swell day time job to have as a fledging musician

Show off

When I was going to school to learn to program games and what not, i heard a lot of horror stories about the hours a lot of developers have to work. Correct me if im wrong, b/c i am no expert, just going on what i heard/read, but games are usually on tight deadlines so being only 5 developers on your team, your hours must be extremely long. I remember reading an article by a 'wife' of a developer that worked at EA that worked 7 days week and 12 hour days almost all year around. What are the hours like for your job?

[Cyllya]

I went to school for game design (not programming), but ended up deciding I don't want to be in the actual game dev industry. So right now I've been making flash-based games. I haven't been able to get anything done though. That's only partially because I've been bouncing around between projects.

[Niki]

Hmm, how the more I read about game development, how the more I want to learn C++! I think I'm just going to go for it!

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Vdesign

Show off

Hehe

What are the hours like for your job?

I've heard the horror stories too, but my hours are not like that all. I average between 42 and 45 hours a week. Our work schedule is based on reasonable expectations - we're not expected to do a three year job in two.

There tends to be some overtime involved in making the deadlines, but a lot of that is voluntary. It's about going the extra mile. We have a great team and all of us want to make our games the best we can in the given time. The folk at Crystal seem to have somewhat longer stretches of working seven days a week, but again a lot of that is because people give a damn about the games they work on.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Niki

Hmm, how the more I read about game development, how the more I want to learn C++! I think I'm just going to go for it!

Some people also do quite well with Java. I know Cas of PuppyGames, is a die-hard Java dude, and he gets pretty good results (smooth graphics and animations etc).

Could be worth investigating the relative merits of C++ / Java.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Another tip I can give you is this: make a version of tic tac toe (or some other established and simple game) that runs on your mom's computer. Why? Because the hardest thing about making games is finishing them. It's good to learn what it takes to finish one with a very simple project... so you know what you're in for when you start frying bigger fish.

Good luck!

This advice is spot on. Probably the single most important piece of advice for anyone getting in to game dev.

[ellie]

Originally Posted by cardano

That's what I'm doing right now and it's paying very well. Even though the industry has transformed over the years, it's still similar to what Steve was doing with his independent game development studio back in the days.

Here's my latest game: Forgotten Riddles: The Moonlight Sonatas - Free Download Game from Shockwave

Oh yeah I love these games, although I do sick of them.

I reckon I could put one of these games together as well, if I just got a bit better at AS.

Jim I don't know about other women but I hate all those stratery games like warcraft. I'm talking more about the mist, police quest, CSI type games. As I woman I am not into anything to do with shoot'em-up or medievil times. That link you gave looks good. I think what I like are games that don't include a lot of violence and where you interact quite a bit with other characters, and also a lovlely built 3d environment with quite a bit of detail, with architecture and characters.