How do you learn how to program?

[krackato]

Programming seems like a useful skill in this day and age. I'd like to learn how to program web applications and websites.

What is the best way to go about becoming a programmer?

Which languages should an individual learn in this day and age?

What are some things that wish you had known before starting out and learning how to program? What would you tell your younger self? Would you do it again?

What are the benefits and negatives of being a programmer?

[Mayo]

Take Lynda.com new courses. IMO their video tutorials are the best, i have Javascript essential training 2007, XHTML essential training, CSS for designers and i would recommend you that you maybe take PHP with MySQL essential training course.


Problems you encounter: poor documentation, not understanding terms, procrastination, lack of time & lack of will to finish projects.

Once you get started and going in 5th gear there is nothing that will stop you any more!

[Herbalist]

Originally Posted by krackato

What are some things that wish you had known before starting out and learning how to program? What would you tell your younger self? Would you do it again?

1) I wish I had known about constant overtimes, extra-hours, "deathmarches", headaches, red eyes, caffeine and other "specifics" of this profession.
2) "Don't do it!!!!"
3) No. I've quit.

[Minsc]

Originally Posted by krackato

What is the best way to go about becoming a programmer?

You start out with simple languages and work your way up.
For example, first you learn HTML and CSS and write some webpages with those. Then you learn Javascript. Then PHP(or ActionScript if you want to learn Flash too).

Going straight to PHP would be overwhelming since PHP would build on the concepts of Javascript which would build on HTML/CSS. You'll use your knowledge of how to write programs for Javascript to do it for PHP, but also learn new things that PHP has that JS doesn't.

When programming, you learn by doing. You have to start projects to learn how to program(you don't necessarly have to finish. It's important to finish some though).

Which languages should an individual learn in this day and age?

That'd depend on what you want to do.
For web development: HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Flash/ActionScript, PHP, XML.

You can use other langauges besides PHP but PHP is the most popular.

Don't worry too much about which langauge to use since it won't take long to learn a new one once you learn how to program.

What are some things that wish you had known before starting out and learning how to program?

Which languages to use and to look on the internet for tutorials, ect.

Would you do it again?

Yes..
There's not really any downside if you wern't going to do anything else anyway and it'll change how you think about things and is a useful skill to have.

[tobyhede]

I would suggest learning Python or Ruby.
Both are object-oriented, dynamic and modern languages.
You can download them both and get started today.
Just grab the software, Google for some tutorials and get cracking.

PHP sucks. Steer clear. You will learn a lot of bad habits.

I love my work, so I don't really have many negatives.

"Crunch mode" can be a killer, but I view this as a breakdown of the process rather than a normal state of affairs. If you are continually working insanely long hours then find another job. And this can happen in any industry or job.

[Mayo]

Originally Posted by tobyhede

PHP sucks. Steer clear. You will learn a lot of bad habits.

I personally don't use neither PHP,Ruby,Python... but i can recommend Symfony framework: symfony Web PHP Framework

Symfony has rather good documentation & tutorials.

[tobyhede]

Symfony is still PHP though.

If you're serious about learning the "art" of programming, another language is your best option.

[Erock]

Originally Posted by tobyhede

Symfony is still PHP though.

If you're serious about learning the "art" of programming, another language is your best option.

Hey tobyhede I just got a PHP book, and am rethinking it based on your input. I only want to make websites, and it seems like a lot of quality sites are made with php so I'm wondering if you could elaborate on why you'd recommend Python or Ruby for web development.

Thanks
Erock

[Mayo]

PHP is maybe more bogged down than other languages and Symfony is maybe not the best framework but i had not pleasant experience with RoR either. Either way what ever language and framework you choose it's ok. Personally i would not ever use any of those for pretty big web sites excerpt ASP.NET and some other smaller and much more expensive proprietary frameworks.

PHP for "small" project IMO should work just fine.

I Hear a Symfony: Rails vs. the Symfony PHP framework | townx

[Mayo]

BTW look what additional free scripts Hostgator.com(4.95$ a month) is offering, most scripts are PHP based:

Blogs
b2evolution HOT!
Nucleus
pMachine Free
WordPress

Content Management
Drupal
Geeklog
Joomla HOT!
Mambo Open Source
PHP-Nuke
phpWCMS
phpWebSite
Post-Nuke
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TYPO3
Xoops

Customer Support
Crafty Syntax Live Help
Help Center Live HOT!
osTicket
PerlDesk
PHP Support Tickets
Support Logic Helpdesk
Support Services Manager

Forums
phpBB2 HOT!
SMF

E-Commerce
CubeCart
OS Commerce HOT!
Zen Cart

F.A.Q.
FAQMasterFlex

Guestbooks
ViPER Guestbook

Hosting Billing
AccountLab Plus
phpCOIN

Image Galleries
4Images Gallery
Coppermine Photo Gallery
Gallery

Mailing Lists
PHPlist HOT!

Polls and Surveys
Advanced Poll
phpESP
PHPSurveyor

Project Management
dotProject
PHProjekt

Site Builders
Soholaunch Pro Edition
Templates Express

Wiki
TikiWiki
PhpWiki

Other Scripts
Dew-NewPHPLinks
Moodle
Noahs Classifieds
Open-Realty
phpAdsNew
PHPauction
phpFormGenerator HOT!
WebCalendar

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Herbalist

1) I wish I had known about constant overtimes, extra-hours, "deathmarches", headaches, red eyes, caffeine and other "specifics" of this profession.
2) "Don't do it!!!!"
3) No. I've quit.

These pitfalls exist and are significant -- but are far from universal or inevitable.

Software development has been incredibly good to me overall. I had a rough patch earlier this decade for about 3 years (a combination of the dot-crash downdraft and simultaneous restrictions and stresses connected with my wife's fatal illness). That's not bad for a 25 year career. In fact it's not really significant.

Of course I have always been an independent contractor, and I eventually learned to lose my problem / unreasonable / a__hole customers even if they paid me a premium.

Within software development there are things I absolutely love to the point I'd do them for free if I didn't need to eat. And there are things I detest. But it's such a huge, sprawling, growing field, that I have done okay sticking with my strengths and interests.

The main problems I've had is keeping up with technological progress, which is made worse than it needs to be by the mindless fascination with all things new that so many decision makers have; and offshoring. I have managed those challenges by becoming indispensable in the niches I know well, and by sticking to things that are difficult to exploit hapless third world minions over: things that require intimate cultural awareness, finesse with clients or their customers, and other things that sweat shops can't provide.

Independent consulting has its ups and downs but at no time in the past 15 years have I made less than $60K and I would be embarrassed to tell you what the top end was for two and a half years. I was blessed to be able to do this all without selling my soul. And virtually all from home -- just 4 days on site and a couple of lunch meetings all last year. I'm debt free except for the 9 years or so left on my mortgage. I was slow to save for retirement and I'll have to scramble a bit on that ... but if I had to quit working today, I would not go cold or hungry, either.

I think you gave up too soon ;-) Or, it just may not have been suited to you. It's not a job for a glad-handing extroverted big-picture kind of person, for instance. It requires above average attention to detail and an intuitive knack for correctly identifying problems and the most effective way to solve them -- often with limited resources. And if you can step out of that mode and still deal with customers in useful and non-intimidating ways, that's a HUGE plus.

Being a Brainiac doesn't hurt, but it's over-rated. Common sense and an understanding of business realities is more important. And a love of the craft -- and the heart of a craftsman -- is the MOST important.

--Bob

[tobyhede]

I am skating dangerously close to a flame-war, I know.

If you are interested in making web applications and know a little programming already. PHP is a great choice. The vast majority of open source web applications are written in PHP. Essentially all hosts support PHP. In honesty, deploying a Rails app can be a real pain. I still develop a lot of my systems in PHP because of these facts (although I am steadily moving over to pure Rails development).

However, if you are interested in learning programming and making a long-term career as a programmer, and not necessarily in a purely web-based environment, then Ruby or Python are great choices. Both of these languages are pure object languages and well-designed, nicely thought out and consistently structured. Both languages have some really nice meta-programming features that will stand you in good stead later down the track. If you can meta-program, you can do anything. (MetaProgramming is basically using code to write more code: Metaprogramming) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Mayo: I'm interested to hear what went wrong with Rails. I *adore* Ruby and Rails.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by tobyhede

I am skating dangerously close to a flame-war, I know.

If you are interested in making web applications and know a little programming already. PHP is a great choice.

I wouldn't argue with that statement, even though I make my living off Microsoft technologies (.NET, mostly C#). The truth is that every language and platform has its pros and cons, and every developer has their preferences. At the end of the day you can write great software or utter crud using the language of your choice.

Also, the nature of the project itself is important. I would rather do an interesting project in Basic than a death march in Ruby. I turned down a one year contract at $90/hr plus expenses (in 1995!) because I didn't want to live in Turkey and work (even indirectly) for RJ Reynolds. Even we Satan-worshipping Microsoft-using developers have our limits ;-)

--Bob

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Erock

I only want to make websites, and it seems like a lot of quality sites are made with php so I'm wondering if you could elaborate on why you'd recommend Python or Ruby for web development.

For what it's worth ... in my view PHP is more intuitive if you already know HTML and web page construction or want to learn it along with that, because you just mix PHP code right into the HTML. However I entered the world of web development in the late 90's through VBScript, which worked similarly to PHP, and I found that there are limits to how complicated a site you want to make that way. I prefer the separation of presentation (HTML) and server-side code, which is easier to do (and encouraged) in VB.NET, C#, and other languages that run under .NET (Ruby and Python included) ... and by many other platforms and languages.

On the other hand, there is a blog post (sorry, I've lost the link) from a guy who was fed up with PHP and wanted to rewrite his whole successful web site in Ruby, and after 2 years of failing, went back to PHP. Because he totally "gets" PHP and just found Ruby unintuitive. He still rewrote everything but just in good ol' PHP. So there's something to be said with using what flows best for you. Also, don't blame a bad design on the language it was implemented in!

--Bob

[CeciL]

I program for a living (for myself) and have been into programming since I was 13. Giving me about 13 years in it.

Originally Posted by krackato

Programming seems like a useful skill in this day and age. I'd like to learn how to program web applications and websites.

What is the best way to go about becoming a programmer?

Which languages should an individual learn in this day and age?

What are some things that wish you had known before starting out and learning how to program? What would you tell your younger self? Would you do it again?

What are the benefits and negatives of being a programmer?

Originally I learned basic by poking. No books, just tearing apart other programs. Although, I would advise mulling over a dummy book of choice and then tear apart some programs. You can get example source code for just about anything from source sites.

Learn C++ then PHP and .NET will be a piece of cake. Poor basic is going bye bye.

Nothing really. Buy lots of domain names in the 90s, lol. Heck yeah! Anyone that says they won't wasn't using their talent correctly or lack of...

----------------------
SonoranBob about your VbScript, ever hear of ASP? Just as if not more powerful than PHP. Been around since the 90's

"And a love of the craft -- and the heart of a craftsman -- is the MOST important." - Very true!!

[Mayo]

Originally Posted by tobyhede

Mayo: I'm interested to hear what went wrong with Rails. I *adore* Ruby and Rails.

Rails is good , but simply when it comes to scaling(for what i need) it's a nightmare. I see RoR like the school of Java(RoR is light years better than Java ) because it is more a cult following than a system that could scale up to industrial grade(all those companies that invest in Java as their main engine are insane, why use 1000 machines when you can use only 50 ?!?). If you need 100 machines for something for example ASP.net needs 10-20 machines then i don't have nothing to seek in that framework and i think that company that is based on RoR is predominantly made to go bust if it becomes big business.

Actually when i think it i would recommend to krackato to learn C# & ASP.net instead of PHP because if he thinks developing something bigger he will surely be better of with ASP than with RoR or PHP.

Personally i am more a fan of Lisp, Smalltalk & other functional languages.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by CeciL

----------------------
SonoranBob about your VbScript, ever hear of ASP? Just as if not more powerful than PHP. Been around since the 90's

Um ... yesss, VBScript is the language used by classic ASP. If' you're talking about ASP, you're talking about VBScript, and if you're talking about VBScript, you're talking about either ASP or writing utility scripts in Windows.

ASP has been superceded by ASP.NET which can use VB.NET, C#, Python, Ruby, or even PHP. As a scripting language, VBScript has been superceded by PowerShell, which is basically a scripting variant of C#.

--Bob

[CeciL]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

Um ... yesss, VBScript is the language used by classic ASP. If' you're talking about ASP, you're talking about VBScript

Uhh no.
You CAN use VBscript within ASP.
You can also use VBscript client side. (THIS usage is the commonly referred to VBscript, in web dev)
ASP is only server side.
Instead of using VBscript you can use Javascript.

Anyway the point is you were talking about how php is written along side the HTML, that is why you switched. That is one of the main reasons ASP was created.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by CeciL

Uhh no.
You CAN use VBscript within ASP.
You can also use VBscript client side. (THIS usage is the commonly referred to VBscript, in web dev)
ASP is only server side.
Instead of using VBscript you can use Javascript.

Anyway the point is you were talking about how php is written along side the HTML, that is why you switched. That is one of the main reasons ASP was created.

Somehow we are talking past each other, Cecil. I didn't say you can't use VBScript within ASP. My point was exactly the opposite.

Yes, in classic ASP you can also use VBScript client side, but virtually no one does, in part because the only place that will work is in Internet Explorer.

Yes, I was talking about how PHP is written within HTML, as is VBScript in classic ASP. I switched AWAY from classic ASP / VBScript for that reason.

Sure, ASP was created for that purpose ... that wasn't my point. My point is, it has its limitations, and I liked ASP.NET much better for non-trivial applications.

All that said, you can write great software (or crap) in any language. The language and platform are not the biggest variable in software quality / viability, not by a long shot. The best advice overall is probably, pick what you're most comfortable with and pursue excellence with it.

The only fly in that ointment is that some clients have Religious Beliefs and if you want to work with those clients you generally have to use the Majick that they believe in. If they think for example that Java is the One True Server-Side Language, then you either move on, or nod solemnly and use Java.

The hedge here is that you can easily be proficient in several languages. Once you're learned one or two, additional ones are no big deal. In fact to do web development you have to know:

HTML
JavaScript
At least one server-side language

... so it you have the spare time and energy, consider learning 2 or 3 server side languages. You'll be more marketable, if not necessarily more competent. By and large, businesses are still pretty unsophisticated in hiring software development talent, and tend to use useless criteria like "years of experience" in specific languages rather than looking at much more important things like problem-solving chops, your approach to the craft, your QA techniques, and the points of similarity between the project(s) they want you to work on and the project(s) you've done in the past.

And then there is the question of platform (.NET, classic ASP, Tomcat, etc). Learning a platform and the popular libraries that work with it can be a bigger job than learning the language(s).

--Bob

[tobyhede]

Ah SCALE.

The question "but will it s c a l e?" amuses me so much I actually made it a T-Shirt: but will it s c a l e ... > HypotheticalMegastructure | CafePress

I was a Java developer back in the day, and I remember when ASP.Net was the new kid on the block and it wouldn't scale.

Scale is irrelevant for most people.

If you are just starting out learning to program it is even more irrelevant. It's like saying to someone who wants to be a carpenter don't learn to use a saw because when you go to work on the Empire State Building the saw won't scale.

Also: scale issues are all architectural and nothing to do with a specific language.

Anyway, I'll shut up.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by krackato

What is the best way to go about becoming a programmer?

Start small and do a lot of it!

Which languages should an individual learn in this day and age?

What language you should learn depends heavily on the field you want to be in. For example, in my field, console game development, C++ is king.

There are, however, a few languages that I think every programmer worth his salt should learn:
* some basic Assembly, because it teaches you how processors work at the lowest (programmable) level
* Pascal is good to learn functional programming
* Java or C# are good choices to learn object oriented programming
* Optional: dabble with something like LISP to learn the difference between declarative programming and imperative programming.

In the end, a programming language is just a tool and while it may take a long time to absorb all the intricacies of each language, the hard thing to learn is how to write good software - and that doesn't depend on the language you use at all.

What are some things that wish you had known before starting out and learning how to program?

Nothing, really. Learning this stuff was all a big adventure... I wouldn't want to spoil that for myself with too much pre-knowledge.

What would you tell your younger self?

That the other games looked cooler than what I made at the time, because they did not try to cram all their graphics resources uncompressed in the executable, which QBASIC could make no bigger than 640k under DOS.

And don't bother going to the university, because you'll drop out anyway and make a ton of money programming games (which was my biggest dream at the time).

Would you do it again?

Yes.

What are the benefits and negatives of being a programmer?

The bad: programming is, at times, very hard and difficult work.

The good: the sense of accomplishment once a project is done, creating something out of nothing and (in my field in particular) learning about the joy that your product brings to others.

The excellent: I get paid to stare at a certain adventurer's boobs 5 days a week... seriously... that's my job*

* as one of the graphics programmers on the team, I have to make sure she and her world look as pretty as the designers and artists intend them to look.

[Mayo]

Start with XHTML, Javascript, CSS and then go to PHP,RubyOnRails, Python or C#

My advice is to go to PHP because there is a ton of scripts for it and you can run websites without any additional costs(shared server). When you accustom to PHP you can go to C# and develop in ASP.net if you need some business grade webiste. You just have to start with something and when you become proficient just upgrade your knowledge.


How to become a Hacker:

How To Become A Hacker


Of course Python is also great(Google uses it) so you can also take Zope/Plone:
Better Web Application Framework

There are tons of frameworks/languages and it all depends on your choice.

Here's what is possible with ASP.net(C#):
ARCast.TV - PlentyOfFish.com How one man beat the big guys (This way of thinking can be put into almost any online industry.)

[joesugar]

When I was learning how to program and even now when I'm learning a new language, I find it important to have a goal, a project to implement in that language. I've written Hello World so many different ways, every time I see it I cringe. But, having something I want to implement, something significant but not too complex, not just something copied form a book, forces me to actually use the language and learn all the different parts.

[tobyhede]

Oh, and also worth checking out the Plenty of Fish Architecture on highscalability.com.

Interesting stuff.