Confused with taking programming as career

[vir_maha]

Hi friends,

I am planning to make my career in .net programming language but I have a problem. I think I am not good at programming, means I do programming mainly in php but I always try to copy paste the code and make the things my way.

But I really don't know the hard core programming, I am always afraid of so called loops and oops concepts. And above all I think, People who have good logic become good programmer.

So what should I do so that I can make a good career in programming. Is it inborn quality that some people thinks logic in seconds and implement that using programming language?.

So need ur advice.

[UHF]

Originally Posted by vir_maha

Is it inborn quality that some people thinks logic in seconds and implement that using programming language?.

Yes it probably is. But to be a good programmer you also need to be a good designer. You need to be able to break things down into behaviours and abstract representations. Having a logical mind is just a part of it. Anyone can write code now, but this doesn't make them programmers.

It isn't a question of not being good at programming, it's question of 'do you want to put the work into being a good Programmer'? It's probably the most complicated profession there is.

[vir_maha]

means...its impossible for anyone who don't have good logic to jump into programming.

[UHF]

Programming isn't something you can just 'jump' into anymore, like I did 9 years ago - with no IT qualifications.

What aspects of programming do you enjoy? Perhaps you should look closely at those. If you can't construct an if/then/else condition, then programming really isn't for you. It's like trying to be lead guitarist if you can't really play a guitar well and won't put in the practice.

[vir_maha]

you are right...but I am not that much dumb, I am actually from IT backgroud and I did some programming in php and have ability to mold php applications according to my way.

But I take time in understanding the working and it takes a long time for me to write a program, like in case of loops. So I am asking ...can i overcome this with practice. I do have interest in programming but my main problem is that I jump into practical thing without studying the theory.

[Niki]

Originally Posted by vir_maha

means...its impossible for anyone who don't have good logic to jump into programming.

Not really I guess.

You can learn the syntax and then program things analyzed by other people.

But Logic is something that fits a good programmer. Nevertheless Don't think logic isn't your thing or so, everybody has logic built in, you just have to find it.

Don't be afraid of OOP concepts. Just try and fail, try and fail. eventually you will try and succeed.

You can read a lot about OOP on the Internet these days. If you don't like to read on a screen, there are enough books to learn OOP concepts together with a given language, say VB.net or c#.net.


If you want to educate yourself about .net technologies I suggest you immediately subscribe to ASP.NET, C#, Visual Basic Tutorials and Training on LearnVisualStudio.NET

and take a look at MSDN Learn (Training and Certification Resources)


Relax, keep on going, but most of all, go easy on yourself.


Good luck

[Niki]

Originally Posted by vir_maha

you are right...but I am not that much dumb, I am actually from IT backgroud and I did some programming in php and have ability to mold php applications according to my way.

But I take time in understanding the working and it takes a long time for me to write a program, like in case of loops. So I am asking ...can i overcome this with practice. I do have interest in programming but my main problem is that I jump into practical thing without studying the theory.

Practice works often better then just learning theory.

If you mix both theory and practice together your off to go!

Learning theory is more fun if you do it by watching webcasts or tutorials then reading it from a book but a book can give you a good and clear understanding of some concepts hard to explain and stick from a webcast.


Mix mix :d

[mellom]

To the original poster:

If I can do it, anyone can do it.

I broke into computers at a late age (19). That's when I got my very first PC with Windows ME (yuck). Anyway, went from zero to hero (I work for myself now). Just be dedicated and prepare to learn a lot on your own. I would say a good 80% of my knowledge is from tinkering with programs, looking at others, reading books and articles. The other 20% is on the job experience.

If you like it, stick to it.

[Dharma]

If loops are difficult for you, then programming might not be for you. You will need to work at what comes naturally to others. I think you need to find a mentor, a really good coder who will go through your code and suggest where you could improve.

[vir_maha]

@dharma.. but I have seen people who even don't know how to program and they are employed with big IT companies.

As this is a forum for motivational and personal development....I should say nothing is impossible...for human...then what's big deal with programming, a sheer interest can make a big difference...what say...??

[Tasaio]

It sounds to me like you're having trouble with a single concept (loops)...

...and that this is making you question your entire career path.

Don't get so frustrated!

Everyone encounters a concept that gives them trouble. Steve mentioned that eigenvalues and eigenvectors gave him trouble. I had trouble memorizing search algorithms. And Bill Gates didn't even finish his degree.

Remember, not all programmers are good at logic. Lots of programmers--especially at big companies--are lazy and incompetent. Look at Microsoft's products!

But this is a good thing, because people like you, who care about doing well, stand out from the crowd.

I don't think anyone is born with programming skills. I only developed mine through practice. And I was only able to do this because I happen to love programming.

I recommend taking a day to relax. Then, tackle the concept of loops from a new angle. Go to your local university and ask a professor if it helps.

In any case, never give up on a dream.

[Brutha]

@dharma.. but I have seen people who even don't know how to program and they are employed with big IT companies.

As this is a forum for motivational and personal development....I should say nothing is impossible...for human...then what's big deal with programming, a sheer interest can make a big difference...what say...??

There are two different things:
1) Can you archieve something?
2) Is it a good idea to try to achieve it?

If you take logic skills as the thing an IQ test measures, I think that you need a bit of them to be a good programmer.
Improving those skills is difficult.

On the other hand there is something like "empaty with computers" which you acquire though experience.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by vir_maha

As this is a forum for motivational and personal development....I should say nothing is impossible...for human...then what's big deal with programming, a sheer interest can make a big difference...what say...??

One very important question which I haven't seen a satisfactory answer to is, why? Why do you want to become a programmer? (or software developer. Yes, there is a difference)

It seems as if you're doing it because it's something you found interesting, started doing, and now believe it's the path you should take. But other things you've said show that you're not truly keen.

So ask yourself if it's truly what you want to do, and why.

Logic, formal thinking, creativity. All of these are abilities everyone possesses to some degree (though in some people it's probably so small that it seems absent). With enough interest and motivation you could improve those skills if they're lacking. But as Brutha said, being able to do something is different to it being a good idea. Do you want to do it?

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by vir_maha

@dharma.. but I have seen people who even don't know how to program and they are employed with big IT companies.

Absolutely, I've had to fix their code at one point in time.
Some big IT companies use the "warm bodies" anti-pattern because it looks like they're creating forward movement by throwing warm bodies at a project. It creates just the opposite, but if the company has a lot of money to burn, its ok. The Mythical Man Month states good programmers are 5-10 times as productive as mediocre ones. I've seen this in real life in the shop I worked in.

So, yes, you can get employed as a marginal programmer. Absolutely. You will remain one unless you get a mentor, read some books on design patterns, and expand your horizons in the field. If you have the drive to be a good programmer you can get there. It sounds like you'll need to ask for help along the way and that's fine.

[vir_maha]

I loved all your answers...you are all great ....

I want to become programmer because I think and my friends think that I am creative because I really helped them in their projects. But I never thought of it and this was my self doubting and self defeating thoughts which always says that I don't have logical mind but at same time I am doing some sort of programming...seems funny..so to be honest I have this problem of low self esteem and also suffering from some sort of anxiety disorder.

So, It was my long desire to become a good programmer and its my internal faith but my anxiety comes in between and I hold my self for about 4years but now I want to really take it seriously.

[RLaRock]

Hello vir_maha,

First, let me say that you can be a great programmer if you chose to commit the time to it. I've seen this myself.

As background, I started in programming in the late 70's (when Radio Shack launched the TRS-80 which used a tape-recorder to store data). I later went to college and then on to work in a Wall Street firm specializing in Fixed Income trading.

When I first started with that company, I was charged with screening new programmer applicants. The firm believed that the only way to be a good programmer was to be good at logic. As a result, every applicant had to pass two separate logic tests.

Now these weren't programming logic questions, but the kind of mental testing.

For example (an easy one):

A farmer has chicken, a fox and a bucket of grain that he needs to get across the lake. The problem is he can only fit one at a time into the boat, and if he leaves the chicken with the fox, the fox will eat the chicken. If he leaves the chicken with the grain, the chicken will eat the grain. How does he get them all across the lake? (Answer at the bottom of the post)


Well, the testing seemed to work. However, we found that we were rejecting over 90% of the applicants. Did that mean over 90% of programmers weren't good programmers?

Well, as the years went on, the company was acquired and forced to grow rapidly. This created many issues, one being growing the programming staff rapidly. However, with such a barrier as the logic test imposed, staffing up became impossible. Out of 200 applicants, 5 would make it to round two of the logic test and maybe one would reach round three (where a new third logic test brutally eliminated them).

The result was that we had to stop giving the test.

Guess what? We still got top notch programmers!

What we begin to realize is that logic and programming are not natural gifts, but they are learned skills which can be taught. (All my symbolic logic classes in college should have taught me that).

We would take entry level programmers, assign them to a Sr. Systems Analyst or Sr. Program Analyst and let them go.

Over time, these entry level programmers learned the skills needed to take on more and more complicated tasks, all the while, allowing our senior developers to focus on more of the design and less of the actual coding.

As a result, I am convinced that great programmers can be made. They aren't born. That is why so many firms focus on recruiting entry level programmers. That way they can teach them the 'right' way of programming before the 'wrong' ways are internalized.

But, programming isn't for everyone. It requires a huge focus on details. Unlike any other profession, there is NO room for errors (unless you work for Microsoft). If there is a typo in a book, no one points at the author and says they are incompetent. But one error in a program can cause millions of dollars to vanish!

So much of programming relies on the dotting of every i and crossing of every t. That attention to detail is often not in some people's nature, and that’s alright, but programming isn't for them.

Programming is usually 90% grunt work and 10% creativity. But that 10% can be the best part as you work to design the most elegant of solutions to the problem at hand.

So, if you are truly in love with programming, and don't mind hours of mundane work, then I would suggest you go for it.

But...

Here is the advice I gave all my new developers.

• Expect to spend 1 hour of free time learning for every 4 hours worked.
• Find a mentor, someone that is a great programmer, and watch/review what he/she did. (There is a lot of code on the web, most of which isn't worth much - find the good stuff)
• Test EVERYTHING in every possible way - you learn more from your errors than you learn from your successes.
• Re-test everything
• Repeat steps 3 and 4 - Testing should take 80% of the project life-cycle
• Make sure you fit the design to the problem, not vise-versa

And if a small town boy can work his way from entry level programmer up to VP of Development - managing over 130 developers in 4 countries, ANYONE CAN I've seen it myself many times!

Okay, the answer to the logic question.

1. The farmer takes the chicken across and comes back
2. The farmer take the fox across and brings the chicken back
3. The farmer takes the grain across and comes back
4. The farmer takes the chicken across again