Life Sucks, Then You Die (Blog)

[rini17]

I am probably on the other end of spectrum from depression.. Managed to free myself from guilt, and I do feel the energy within. But I fear these earth-shattering things that could happen, once decided to use this energy to change my life. So I rather drain it by psychically fighting and misleading myself, it even sometimes unfavorably affects my physical health. Albeit progress is made, it is two steps forward and one step back every time.

I think something like happens to many people in my country and in Europe as a whole. Here aren't so many people with depressions as, say, in the US. Using the driving analogy, we maybe know how to drive, but we insist to drive in circles. But circle can be changed into a spiral and one may, at last, arrive where desired!

[helga]

Originally Posted by dalang

I think one should also consider the possibility that the dashboard display is indeed broken. This blog entry focusses on physical action, but it may also be necessary to review your thinking and the emotions that follow. Is it really necessary to feel bad? (cognitive therapy comes to mind)

Action isn't the only way to change your life. The other part is challenging and changing your perception and attitude towards it. I think both should go together to create the best results.

Perhaps this is something people only understand when they have lived it.

Several years ago I was taking action to make changes in my life. I was successful in having an article I wrote published in the city newspaper. All the response from people was very positive. It was posted on the bulletin board at work. My dentist had cut it out and put it in my file! I was taking action on my dream. Yet, whenever someone mentioned they had read it, I felt - terrified, I don't even know how to describe it - they might as well have been threatening me with a baseball bat. The Tony Robbins- follow pleasure, avoid pain- thing wasn't working for me. "The emotions are your guide" thing that Steve and others talk about wasn't working for me. At this point I thought "Maybe I really am too messed up to be successful." If this is how I have to feel to be successful then I can't do it. I won't do it.

And maybe this is the surrender that Steve talks about: I decided I was going to be happy anyway. If I had to work for minimum wage and live in two rooms, I would enjoy my coffee in the sun in the morning, buy myself flowers when I could afford it. Even if I could never be successful I would be happy anyway. Interesting thing is, that shortly thereafter people came into my life who taught me how to change the messed up feelings.

The beliefs that are the most difficult to change are the ones that we develop in early childhood when our brains are still growing. For some of us these are very destructive. Often we accept them as truth and can't even see them because we've had them since we became conscious. The good news is that even those can be changed.

I would say until we get through the first two steps we won't make much progress.

Step 1. Believe that you deserve to be happy. Look in the mirror and say "I deserve to be happy." If you can't say it, if it makes you cry. You have just found what you need to change. If you don't believe you deserve it - no matter where you go with your feet, the result will be the same.

Step 2 Believe that you have the power to change your feelings and your circumstances. The answers are out there other people have done it. If you don't know how - what would you try if you did. If it's too late, you're too old - go back to step one. Even a year of freedom and joy is worth it.

With libraries, the internet and amazon.com we have access to practically all the knowledge of the human race. What you tried didn't work? - Back to Step 2. Only you have the power to find what you need, it is probably different than what your neighbor needs.

Authors I would recommend (all helpful in different ways):
On the scientific side: David Burns, Martin Seligman, Albert Ellis
On the spiritual side: Louise Hay, Cheri Huber
Somewhere in the middle: Byron Katie

Originally Posted by Bitsy

But I'd like to trade in my mind for a new one instead - a well-functioning logical one

I have said that myself ... many times...I was told "not necessary, just change your thinking."

It can be done, if you choose, and never give up. When you think about giving up.. back to Step 1.

[songwriter]

One of my fav Steve posts. Or may I say one of the posts I agree more with Steve.

It something goes wrong, it's not about trying to fix the feeling, the feedback, but to change the cause of it all, if not the feedback will come again and again, (the spirit fighting back again to you, like the machines in Matrix Revolution...).

There's a moment you realize something is crap and you decide to change the situation, call it choice, call it a different attitude, we know what it is.

You try a different attitude (like courage instead of security, or may I say "over security"). That leads you to different choices (taking risks) and so to different results. Hey!, maybe worse results than before, but you can come back and try another choice again or attitude, or even coming back to where you came from.

The little problem is to find what attitude is the best one... sometimes you feel you attitude is the best one, but you wait for that something you expecting by keeping that attitude and you can get bored or apathetic...
sometimes the attitude you fear the most to take is the one that would be better for you. Like courage and fear.... Pride is no good for that, because it takes humility for thinking... "Hey, all this time I might have been doing wrong... yes, me... I thought I was smart... but I'm human and I do mistakes. I'm not silly at all for that. I should try a different approach to this" and the thing will change.

What if the result is worst than the previous state?
What if you even can't come back to what you were before?

well... I took the red pill, I don't care for that... "why in the world we're here, surely not to live in pain and fear, why in the world you're there, when you're everywhere, come and get your share" (Lennon, "Instant Karma"). I feel I like must find my way forward ("The long and winding road"), and maybe I will get into wrong directions, so I will have to come back again to where I got wrong (This is kind of the maze of some old good post of Erin).

I don't mind. "Pursuing your dreams is hard. Not pursuing them is even harder." (that's not the Beatles, that's me).

Great summer for all.

[tjh]

This is a timely post for me, a regular reader of Steve's blog. Timely, for I feel a negative sense of apathy and envy from within me, causing me a dulled outlook on life, and a desire to do something about it. I immediately recognize the sources my apathy and envy. The primary source is my current job and the secondary source is not having any family or friends to talk to. Gee, where did everyone go?

So, tonight, before I read Steve's post, I came home wanting to express some of my angst. I wrote on a sheet of paper some of the things I have done in my life, instead of mentally diversional envy I usually take part in.

On my list was what I want in a new job. I've "served" my current employer for just over a year in a job I thought was mediocre in the first place. The position served as an opportunity for gaining some experience in a new area to me, but the position has lost all hopes of giving slightly more than a modicum of satisfaction to me. In fact, I am at a point where this position is counterintuitive to my financial goals and I need to make a change.

Recent accomplishments in my life have catalyzed my own self doubt and revaluation of what I should be paid. So tonight, I began a job search to fulfill new requirements: increase pay, work fewer hours, and live closer to work.

Sure, I'm still working for someone else, but I am too fearful (whole other issue) of going out on my own, full time, just yet. Maybe in another year or so.

In my vision of the future, I have taken care of the job already. So that leaves the friends and family. I think taking care of the job will automatically make the friends and family goal fall into place. Again, the post is very timely and its content helpful.

[smartile]

Hey Steve,

I got to admit. This is one of the best posts that I've read over the last couple months. I can sense the passion and urgency in your post. Nice.

I would like to add one thing to your post. There is a section where you mentioned that it took you a few years to see your results manifest into the real world. I can totally relate. I've been building a business part time while working a full time job for the past year and it hasn't been easy. The biggest challenge has been a lack of time.

About 4 weeks ago I was talking to a friend of mine and in that conversation I came up with an idea. My idea was to transition from my full time salary position (5 day commitment) to a new engineering firm working as a contractor (3 day commitment) while earning the same pay.

Here is how it works for me. Each week I would earn,

20 Extra Hours (no commute) + 2 Extra Free Days = 4.5 days EXTRA DAYS/wk

Since a contractor does not normally receive benefits, pension, insurance, vacation, sick days, etc then they are typically paid a higher hourly rate to compensate for the difference. This would mean I would be able to work 3 days per week as a contractor and still get paid the same as I would as a salary employee. This is little risky but who said this game of life wasn't without any risks

A long story short - Since I've started to manifest my new life as an entrenpreneur, I'm finally starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. This extra time will allow me to put more energy and fire into my busines which really gets me excited!

I encourage anyone who is working full time and interested in building their own busines to BE PATIENT with themselves. The Universe will magically provides you the answers when you are ready to receive them.

I hope this provides any budding entrepreneurs with some insight.

Cheers,

Stephen Martile — Personal Development with NLP

[Jaben]

Overall I see this article can be a great wake-up call to generate helpful action in ones life. Thanks again Steve!

Here's a little additional perspective...

Life doesn't suck. If you think it does, ask your self if it sucks this very moment, right now? What's the problem this very instant? The problem is always imaginary.

As for the driving analogy, the only way you would allow yourself to crash into a tree is if you were too trapped in your thoughts to do the right thing. Nothing can be created in this world if there isn't a surrender to what is. If you are still then the formless love can arise and create.

If you think your life sucks and you think you need to give up control, then that may trap you into not allowing something new to be created in your life. On the other hand, thinking you need to take control can also be a road block. If you demand that the contents of your life make you happy and you must take control to make it happen you will continuously encounter frustration. Through surrender to what is, love is allowed to shine through and then choices and creations that flow from that state will bring joy and happiness or at least a deep sense of peace.

As for "the greater good", have you seen the movie Hot Fuzz? How do you know the difference between a false mind made version of the greater good and the true right action?

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by caseyd

I've been reading this site for a long time and I could not have explained how I feel and have been feeling for awhile now any better.
I am twenty-five years old, entering my third year in college working towards my B.S. in Computer Science.
I am starting to ramble a lot now and even if no one reads all this, it felt good to get it out. I hope that I didn't come off as whiny, it wasn't my intention. I know everybody has their problems and I know mine probably aren't the biggest problems out there, but they are problems that are affecting me greatly.

Thanks.

I am 25 years old and without a wife/kids. Funny thing is that I think my life sucks because of it. I just wanted to let you know that sometimes we all get fed up with our situations and forget what the other side is really like. Reading your post comforted me because it reminded me that being single isn't all that bad. At the same time, I hope what I am telling you comforts you, because being single isn't all that great. Sure my house stays tidy, but it is also really empty, most of the time I can't stand being in it either. :/

I think the big thing is to surrender the ego, take what we have and see how we can move on. I recently got a second job, might not be a bad idea for you. Money will give you more choices, and it will be a reason to get out of the house. If you come home tired the mess might not bother you so much anymore, and hopefully you can still spend time with your son.

Best to you.

[Boreas]

I also want to mention that I like Steve's point about surrender. I have always felt that really religious people have had a way of staying happy, not feeling guilty, and usually attaining high success. I didn't know why, but now I realize it is because it free's their ego to an extent... I am just not sure if they are aware of it, thought having it be subconcious is probably more powerful anyway.

I am working on tuning out my ego, and goodness knows in high stress situations it isn't easy...till you do it, then everything suddenly becomes very easy, and choices are not difficult to make.

[floramorada]

Steve!!

Life has been sucking for me lately, and it's not letting me ignore it, either. I easily get bogged down and discouraged my the seemingly endless things I have to keep up with, and just my life situation as a whole. Thank you for putting it simply:

If you feel negatively about your job, change it. If you feel negatively about your relationship, change it. If you feel negatively about your body, change it. If you feel negatively about your financial situation, change it.

Thank you so much for posting this article. Talk about synchronity! For the past few days my main thoughts have been something like, "I can't stay like this! I refuse to stay static! Something needs to change!"

That's my keyword for this semester: CHANGE.

It sure as hell isn't going to be easy. Nothing ever is... but thanks for the moment of clarity and inspiration.

[ellie]

What a timely post. I think I said almost the same words a few days ago "life sucks and what's the point, why the hell was I put on this earth, I didn't ask to be here!"

Thanks for the wise words Steve, they really help

[realignedliving]

I'm not one to normally chime in on blog posts, but this had to be one of the best posts I've ever read.

After reading it, I decided to take today and tomorrow to modify my goals and figure out what I really want to accomplish by the end of the year. Some of my new goals and plans look vastly different than my old ones, but I'm much more happier with where I'm going to be headed. Thank you for the inspirational post! I'm so excited to get started today and get headed in a much more 'right' direction!

[smartile]

I love this section. Emotional feedback is a great placement marker to indicate how you're doing with anything. I have a few friends that aren't sure what they want to do with their lives. They aren't clear on their life's purpose so they ask for my advice.

I tell them to listen to their emotional scale. Pay attention to what makes them feel good, great, fabulous and on the downside what makes them feel ok, flatline, moody, depressed, etc.

All it takes is to find one thing that lights you up, puts you on fire and you've got purpose!

I think this scale is a great way to get in touch with your true purpose and natural abilities. What do you think?

Stephen Martile — Personal Development with NLP

[tschreiber42]

Sorry for being late the party. Not a lot of time to read feeds lately.

Personally, I was a little disturbed by this post. You refer repeatedly to depression, yet getting professional mental health help is only mentioned fleetingly. People who can't "don't see the point in living at all" are often too depressed to effectively heal themselves.

Perhaps it's not spiritually correct, but depression often does require medical attention.

I'd be cool if you were just saying, "if you don't like your life, it's up to you to change it," to a general audience. But if you are going to address a post like this to the seriously, lost-all-hope depressed as well, I think it's only responsible to discuss professional help as part of the solutions in a more up front way.

[songwriter]

The problem is when you decide, "okey, I'm gonna change my attitude/choices whatever... and no new choice seems to work, nothing takes you away from the trap you're in or so..."

"Nowhere Man

He's a real nowhere Man,
Sitting in his Nowhere Land,
Making all his nowhere plans
for nobody.
Doesn't have a point of view,
Knows not where he's going to,
Isn't he a bit like you and me?
Nowhere Man, please listen,
You don't know what you're missing,
Nowhere Man, the world is at your command.

He's as blind as he can be,
Just sees what he wants to see,
Nowhere Man can you see me at all?
Doesn't have a point of view,
Knows not where he's going to,
Isn't he a bit like you and me?
Nowhere Man, don't worry,
Take your time, don't hurry,
Leave it all till somebody else
lend you a hand."

He's a real Nowhere Man,
Sitting in his Nowhere Land,
Making all his nowhere plans
for nobody.

The Beatles, again and forever

YouTube - The Beatles - Nowhere Man

I think that when you're in a trap like that is that "you just what you want to see" or so... the world is at your command but there's a step forward you don't want do to do or so...

[matthieu]

Very interesting post I think, that I forwarded to some of my friends that I'm sure will benefit from it.

I kind of reached a state of happiness and confidence about life in general last year. It took me a long time and I did it after a long traveling experience, meeting interesting people, long chats at night, etc...

Anyway there is still one thing that I regularly think about and that I don't understand.
What about health?

Yes I agree we can control everything in life, our feelings, what we do during the working time, our behavior with friends, colleagues, random people. How we can choose to help the stranger in the street. How we can decide to enjoy every small pleasure of life, how we can feel good when seeing a tree; how beautiful clouds can give a large smile on our face.

But what about the health? At some point, we can't control whether we are healthy or not: cancer, other incurable sickness... I really feel this as out of my control and it makes me feel strange.

I do agree that we can still control our feelings and enjoy life even while being sick, at least while it is not painful. But maybe "pain" is another concern? Even when the pain is out of control?

I feel that if I had a cancer I couldn't tell myself in the morning 'I am the architect of my life, I only decide what happens to me'.


What are your views about it?

Thanks a lot
Matt

[ProjectX]

This article just came in time when I had my epiphany a few weeks ago. The purpose of life is to enjoy it. And to have an enriching life. Do things that enrich you. Meet new people to enrich your life. If only I had known this when I was 14 years old my life would be wonderful but alas thats the way things are. I used to think life was all about getting good grades, being popular and working for a company and making money. Ultimately this only led me to depression and a crap life. I failed in every aspect of my life, especially my social life.

Occasionally I get really unhappy with my current life situation and even thought seriously about suicide. I'm just starting to pick up the pieces right now. The hardest thing is not changing, the hardest part is believing whether changing and trying to do what you do to improve your life will work. Living in a nightmare for so long, its sometimes hard to believe that your life will ever become good.
the worst enemy is not laziness. The worst enemy is complete demorilization and hopelessness. The loss of hope that your life will ever be happy. Thats something I have to go through nearly everyday.

[Rogering Rabbit]

Saves me from typing the same less eloquently.

Thirty years so far here and ongoing.

I appreciate the original post and all the comments as well as the general tone and respectful attitude to one and all.

However, I sense a common current in all the thinking here that I disagree with and which on a very personal level angers me.

All posters assume that there IS a way out. Because others have found ways, because you have found a way, it is safe to assume that those not finding it, must have just not have found the tools to do so yet, or failed to use them properly.

You may be right. I don't know. And neither do you; I think you could not possibly.

I personally have tried hundreds of tools over some decades and I have consistently failed to escape my depression. I have given up entirely some years ago.

This does not mean anyone else should and it does not mean I am right to have given up. I may have lacked the courage, the will, the desire, the skill, the intelligence, the perseverance or a combination of these and you may judge me on these; I'll probably concur with your judgement.

But if you tell me that you know there is a way out within the limitations of my current situation, identity and personal traits, what do you base this on?

Regards,
Roger.

[Zaulche]

Greetings Roger,

You make an interesting point about other people not being able to see things form your unique perspective, which is certainly true. Although we can move towards understanding things form another perspective, by relating situations to our own experiences, we would generally not be able to ever truly understand someone else.

However, that does not mean other people's experiences are unable to be applied to your individual experience. This relates to all of us being part of a universal consciousness. This falls into the realms of archetypes, which although not what we are talking about, is along the same lines. Even though everyone has a wholly unique experience, there are generalizations from everyone's experiences that are shared universally.

For example, with myself, I was depressed for many years. Eventually I was prescribed a different medication that worked better. After being able to understand the difference in thought associated with not being depressed I decided to not be depressed, on my own, without the help of medication. It has taken several years, and I am still not completely out of it. However, every day I believe I am getting closer, and it has all stemmed form the realization that I have control over my life and I can change it to whatever I want.

Then there is my girlfriend. She is also generally depressed (though she is also becoming less so). She would put herself down; complain about how bad her life was, and various other things. It seemed like because she had always failed at not be depressed, that she expected to be depressed forever, so she would constantly remind herself about how depressed she is supposed to be. If she ever tried something new, her heart would never be completely in it, because in her subconscious she believed nothing would help and she would always be depressed. So guess what? She would try something and it did not work. No surprises there.

Later on I read many posts on Steve's site dealing with the power of your thoughts. About how you have the power to change anything in your life if you truly want to, about the various affects of positive and negative reinforcement, being aligned with what you truly (subconsciously) believe, as well as how to change those fundamental beliefs. What I saw was the difference between myself and my girlfriend. I had made the conscious choice that I was in control of my life, whereas she has not made that choice consciously. How could Steve have known about this if he is not able to understand my own personal unique experience? It is because he has had his own experiences, and has a level of consciousness that allows him to separate the personal experience form the universal experience. I think this is what allows him to relate to so many people, because no matter what someone's personal experiences are, we can all relate to those universal understandings.

Going back to your point, I am not saying that everyone's advice can work for you, or that you will have the same experiences as someone else. I can also understand becoming angered. When I first read Steve's post about complaining and how it reinforced negative intentions, I told me girlfriend about it. How did she react? She became upset because she thought I was accusing her of saying that she wanted to be depressed and that I did not understand the position she was in. I was not sure how to take this, but I remembered another post Steve had about communication between different levels of consciousness. Perhaps my girlfriend and I are too far apart for me to communicate these types of ideas. I need to learn how to lower my level to communicate these ideas to her. Sometimes this is easy, sometimes it is very hard.

Everyone who has been posting their experiences, suggestions, and hopeful thoughts are all doing so at different levels of consciousness. Depending on where you are, these things may or may not resonate within you. The important thing is to believe in yourself, to believe you have control over your life. If you can take back some of your choices in life from your subconscious then that would be the first step towards however you want to be. Maybe you really want to be depressed and are only trying not to be because people think you should not be depressed. This would prevent you form becoming not depressed, because it does not truly resonate with your own beliefs. Maybe you want to be not depressed, but have been depressed so long that you think you always will be. Then you need to find some positive people and absorb their positive thoughts until you truly believe you can not be depressed.

There are countless possibilities, and have no way of knowing what applies to you specifically. As you said, no one is able to understand someone else completely. However, as you go through life, be sure to check back here once in a while. Maybe as you grow as an individual you will break into a new area of conscious understanding. If that happens, maybe some of the things that you disagree with now will make more sense and seem more applicable. Likewise, things you previously agreed with may not seem right anymore. We are all constantly changing; for better or worse, which means that our personal perception is also constantly changing.

Therefore, although we may never know if someone else is right or wrong, with respect to our own experiences, it is still something to consider and keep in the back of our mind. You never know when an experience form another can apply to your own situation later on in life. How many times has someone not listened to their parents growing up, and then realized later in life that they wished they had paid attention because it is now applicable to their life situation. The same thing can be said about the various forum topics here. Maybe where you are in life now what people attempt to relate to you is not something you are able to understand or accept. However, at a later point in your life you may suddenly be in a situation where that other person’s experience can shed some light on your own life situation. If you remember what the other person had attempted to relate, then you will be that much more prepared for the new adventure that current chapter of your life is undertaking.

Best Regards,
John

[Rogering Rabbit]

Hello John.

"You make an interesting point about other people not being able to see things form your unique perspective"

That's not really my point though. My point is that individual stories of success in fighting depression say no more about others' abilities to do the same, than that stories of individual ghetto-to-billionaire successes mean everyone can be a billionaire if they just try.

I'm no expert in the field, but have read a bit and have the impression that most people who have been depressed for a large number of years don't really get over it. Treatment and drugs together can in most cases provide some improvement (though not in my case), but then a majority relapse within a few years.

"This relates to all of us being part of a universal consciousness."
Not being religious, you lose me there. Various other points you make I don't disagree with at all. I merely find them not applicable to me.

"Later on I read many posts on Steve's site dealing with the power of your thoughts. About how you have the power to change anything in your life if you truly want to."
Indeed; I fully agree. And depression has sapped my will far beyond the point where "truly want" might be words ever to come from my mouth.

But anyway, the anger I mention in my original post is not a rational reaction to what's been posted. It's not directed at anyone but myself; it's merely fury at the thought that my suffering might yet be avoidable (yes, there's the other way out, but for various reasons I'm not choosing that as yet).

And yet, I'd ask you all to consider that while accentuating the positive may often be helpful, it is far from the whole story. And the other side of the story may feel unjustly dismissed.

Regards,
Ron.

[Zaulche]

Greetings (Do you prefer Ron or Roger?),

So you believe that if someone really wants to be a billionaire they would not be able to do so, regardless of how hard they worked?

You may be correct that individual stories are just that, stories. However, just because another individual’s stories do not reflect your personal story does not mean that you would not be able to benefit from lessons they learned.

You might be correct that many people who are depressed for a large number of years do not get over it. I know my mother has been depressed for many years and still takes medication for it.

However, I think the real problem in these cases is not the depression itself. Depression to me seems more like a symptom than a cause. Sure, someone may be depressed, but there is something else that is causing depressive behavior. I do not think I have met anyone who was depressed because they simply wanted to act depressed (though that doesn’t mean some people don’t I suppose). If someone takes medication to be less depressed that is like taking medication to stop having a runny nose. You have not killed the virus causing the runny nose, you are just relieving the symptoms to make living with the virus more comfortable. Therein lays a major problem with depression. Too many people take medication to function ‘normally’ with respect to other people. I believe the people that have successfully come out of depression are people who were able to determine and deal with the cause, instead of masking it. Sometimes this can be very difficult, because the cause might not even be something that is consciously remembered, but the subconscious still retains that sentiment.

As far as the universal consciousness, it is not a religious concept, at least as far as I am using it. I am referring to a theory of how civilizations thousands of years ago would come up with such similar myths, tales, heroes, etc, when they would not have communicated with each other. Some believe that all humans share enough things in common on a cognitive level, that these ideas, beliefs, etc are a shared area of thought that is referred to as the universal consciousness. At least that is how I understood it; I might be off with the direct literal definition of it. Essentially what I was trying to say when I mentioned that is even though we might not be able to relate to each other as individuals, we can still relate to each other on other terms. I might not be able to understand your unique perception of life, but I can understand the thoughts and feelings you are conveying because I can related them to my own similar personal experiences. If no one had similar wants, desires, or experiences in life then people would not be able to relate to each other at all.

I can relate, at least somewhat, to depressions ability to drain someone’s will. I encountered this, though not to the extent as you, still every day. I have dealt with some of the causes of my depression, but not all of them. It takes a lot of energy every day to not be depressed. I think one of the reasons it is will draining is because I spent so much time trying to not be depressed that I did not spend any time on why I was depressed. That would be like trying to cover up a physically ailing sickness. If I constantly struggled for years to cover up my sores, by whatever means I could find, and it never got better then I would most certainly eventually give in to despair because the situation would never improve. Until I would be able to realize that the physical ailment is not the problem and it is something else that is wrong with my body I would not be able to move towards actually curing myself.

With respect to your anger, are you saying that you get angry with yourself? Is that because you see other people getting over depression and you are angry you have been unable to, or is it because you see other people still trapped in depression and you think you will stay there?

Perhaps that anger is part of the problem. If you are angry with yourself for being depressed, then that reinforces the state of depression (since you can’t be mad at yourself for being depressed if you are not depressed)? Is there another way you might be able to re-channel that energy so that it does not reinforce your depression, but instead reinforces your desire to no longer be depressed? I know this is easier said than done, just throwing out an idea that might be useful.

What is the other side of the story you feel is unjustly dismissed? Should we focus on the negative aspects of being depressed instead of the positive aspects of not being depressed?

Best Regards,
John

[Rogering Rabbit]

John,

"So you believe that if someone really wants to be a billionaire they would not be able to do so, regardless of how hard they worked?"

I believe it is self-evidently true that not EVERYBODY would be able to be a billionaire, because that would require the total money supply to be about 10,000 times bigger than it is. I also believe not just ANYONE can be a billionaire through really wanting to be, because quite a large number of people really want to be billionaires, whereas only a tiny fraction are.

"However, just because another individual’s stories do not reflect your personal story does not mean that you would not be able to benefit from lessons they learned."
I would not argue with that. My point is rather that the underlying message appears to be "if you do this, you'll be fine", rather than "if you try this, it may work for you". The former I find objectionable; the latter I am open to.

"Depression to me seems more like a symptom than a cause. "
Ah, I'd refer to the whole complex of habits, assumptions, associations and emotional responses as "depression". Unless there's an underlying cause beyond this that you refer to, which I'm not aware of (short of being born).

"I am referring to a theory of how civilizations thousands of years ago would come up with such similar myths, tales, heroes, etc, when they would not have communicated with each other. Some believe that all humans share enough things in common on a cognitive level, that these ideas, beliefs, etc are a shared area of thought that is referred to as the universal consciousness."
I recognise that such patterns seem to transcend cultures, though wouldn't dare to draw any conclusions myself as to the why and how; possibly mitochondrial Eve told her children some stories that stuck around.
Moreover, you appeared to use it to point out that ALL humans share some traits. I would agree MANY humans share some traits, but this does not imply universality.

"With respect to your anger, are you saying that you get angry with yourself?"
I am furious at the thought I may be suffering needlessly - yet at the same time have given up on all the various avenues that promise redemption from my disease. Been there, done that, have the faded T-shirts.

"Is there another way you might be able to re-channel that energy so that it does not reinforce your depression, but instead reinforces your desire to no longer be depressed?"
Yes, I did manage that once, some 24 years ago and for five years or so had solid hope that things were getting better. I didn't manage a second time though; probably it's a trick that can only work once.

"What is the other side of the story you feel is unjustly dismissed?"
The story that is dismissed is the possibility that no, you will not overcome your depression in your lifetime even if you really try to. This is a demonstrable reality for large numbers of people. You may say this means they didn't try hard enough. I say that if so, the burden of proof for that claim, lies with you.

Regards,
Ron.

[Zaulche]

Ron,

I agree that it is unlikely that everyone would be a billionaire, but then again there are many people that do not want to be billionaires, so who is to say that everyone who does want to be a billionaire cannot be? Also, I agree that just wanting to be a billionaire does not mean you will be. There is most certainly a lot of work involved. Someone who wants to have a lot of money, but does not want to put forth the effort to get the money will probably not become a billionaire. There are many people who have thoughts about how nice it would be to have more money then you could possibly need, yet they never act on these thoughts. I believe anyone with the sincere desire to become a billionaire, who actively works towards that intention, for the amount of time require to manifest that intention, can achieve said billionaire status. Then again, I have read accounts of many people that started earning more money when they stopped worrying about money, so maybe the intent of earning money solely for that sake is to the best way to go about it.

Ah, I finally understand what you are referring to, and I agree with you. Not everything works for everyone; I think that point is fairly evident. To that respect, I agree that making sure your opinion is stated as an opinion is better than stating it as a fact.

Well, the ‘cause’ of depression is certainly open to interpretation and is different for everyone. For some people it may be a neurological disorder, for others it is a negative habit of thought, for others it is a form of covering up painful memories instead of dealing with them, etc. There are an endless amount of possibilities and only the person with depression would know for sure. I do not think there is a universal cause, but rather something personal to everyone that triggers this response (which, as stated above, could be any number of things). Hopefully this helps better explain what I meant when I was referring to finding the cause of depression, rather than focusing on the depression itself. Let me know if it is still confusing to you and I will try to explain it a different way if I am able. After looking at what you refer to as ‘depression’ I think we are referring to the same thing, though perhaps my way of describing it needs some polishing.

True, the why and how of the universal consciousness are not know at this level of consciousness. In order to go beyond that to an explanation would require personal beliefs, so it would be hard to use it as a basis for thought in attempting to explain things to someone who does not share the same beliefs. I do agree that, while I personal believe this relates to just about everyone, I would not say with absolute certainty that it does and I apologize if I presented the information in a way that led to inferring such. It is true that there are will almost always be someone that another is simply never able to relate to, but generally I think people can relate to others on at least some level, even if it their first time attempting to relate to each other.

Ah, alright, I understand your feelings a bit better now. There is no way to promise that something can do something else and I can understand the kind of frustration that would come from repeatedly attempting things that you were told would definitely make an improvement if they actually did not.

Hmm ... not sure if it is a trick that can only be used once. I cannot remember what article it was, but Steve did write about putting forth energy to make changes and burning yourself out. Did you try to accomplish too much too soon? I do not think that would be a problem if it lasted for 5 years, but I have no idea what triggered the depression, how you gave yourself hope, or what triggered the lack of hope again. If you feel like sharing that information maybe someone can lend some insight. If that information is too personal though I definitely understand.

Ah, I understand what you mean by the other side of the story. That is probably true to the perspective of the people. Someone who overcomes depression might generally think that if they can do anyone can, so people still depressed are not trying; whereas someone who is still depressed might generally think that other people do not understand their situation and that despite trying very hard no improvements are made so the situation is hopeless. Of course people fall in between these examples at many levels, since these are just generalizations. Regardless I can understand why you would think the burden of proof is on others to demonstrate their point, though I might not necessarily agree with it. It is a different experience for everyone and trying to prove or disprove who did what or how much seems like a waste of energy that could be better spent on achieving a deeper understanding of each other, something that might actually lead to helping people out of depression, instead of trying to put a burden on others.

Best Regards,
John

[Rogering Rabbit]

John,

"It is a different experience for everyone and trying to prove or disprove who did what or how much seems like a waste of energy that could be better spent on achieving a deeper understanding of each other, something that might actually lead to helping people out of depression, instead of trying to put a burden on others."

That's quite an implied accusation you seem to add at the end there and I wonder what made you think I'm here to try to put a burden on people. My very reason for responding in the first place was that I felt burdened by the debate here, because it felt as it was crossing the line from accentuating the positive into denying the negative.

What I wish to add to this debate, is to ensure that all the hyper-positive you-too-can-do-this-trust-me-it-works talk, does not implicitly cast aspersions on people for whom the various approaches do not (or not yet) work. If it's not working for you, if you are still caught in your depression and nothing works, you are not uniquely deficient; you are part of the mainstream as I am. You may still overcome it one way or another, but there are no guarantees and you do still have to do it all yourself.

Regards,
Ron.

[Zaulche]

Ron,

What do you mean by applied accusation? I do not think you are here to burden or blame anyone, and I agree with your reason for posting in the first place. Perhaps I did not communicate my idea very well, so I will try again.

My intended message is that, in general, there is a lot of correspondence between people who are depressed and people who are not depressed about who is or is not trying or who does or does not understand the situation of the other. I thought that people who are not depressed taking into consideration unique experiences beyond their own and people who are depressed taking into consideration life lessons from others would be a better expanse of energy that having people who are not depressed saying “prove to me you are trying hard enough” or people who are depressed saying “prove to me that I am not trying hard enough.”

If you feel I implied my response as a personal attack on you, then that was not my intention. We are all free to perceive our world however we wish though. I believe anyone without a physical cause for depression (such as brain damage) is able to overcome depression someway somehow eventually, regardless of the method used. Perhaps you believe that some people will never overcome depression, perhaps you do not. Whatever you believe is your personal choice.

Do I think that people who are depressed are not normal? Absolutely not. I do not agree with normal as defined in today’s society, nor do I fault people for having a sad outlook on life. Life can be very depressing, especially with world affairs nowadays. However, I still believe that as individuals we have the power to do or become anything we truly intend.

Do I agree with a depressed outlook on life? In the past I did, but not anymore. However, I also do not find fault in people who still do. There are infinite ways to perceive our world and each is valid. My purpose in writing in this thread is not so say people should or should not change, but to give encouragement and hope to those that want to change. Will everyone be successful? Perhaps not. However, I am not going to tell someone that they are not likely going to get better so they should throw in the towel now and not even bother trying. Some people have deeply engrained depression that will take a lot of willpower to overcome. Others just need some encouragement and kind words. Since I would be foolish to think I can tell one from the other, I have chosen to give positive energy indiscriminately.

I agree with you that people must change themselves by themselves. However, just because someone must make such an effort by their own will does mean they have to do so alone. When I was depressed listening to other people who had depression and overcame it, which was encouraging for me. Did their practices work for me? Not at all. I had to devise my own way on my own terms. However, I still appreciated their time and effort and was able to take lessons they learned and integrate them into my own being. If I can share my own lessons learned and provide the same encouragement for someone else to overcome depression, then I would feel like I was able to give back to the world that helped me become a better person (in my opinion, which obviously varies form person to person). Do I think someone who is depressed is not as good of a person? Not at all. I like not being as depressed, but that is just my own preference. I simply want to be there to help anyone who might also want to not be depressed. Can I offer them a one-stop solution to fix all their problems? Not at all, and I think it would be unfair to someone to even attempt that. However, that doesn’t mean I have to give them the cold shoulder either.

You are correct to say that some people are not able to overcome depression. While I understand that someone who has been depressed for a very long time (not directed at anyone in particular, just in general) may interpret positive thoughts of recovery as something that just gets people hopes up, there are also people who interpret those positive thoughts as an encouragement that allows them to change (as well as an infinite number of other interpretations). Who has the correct interpretation? You can argue everyone or no one with points equally as valid. It all comes down to personal interpretation and choice no matter how you look at it. At least, as I perceive this it does.

Best Regards,
John

P.S. Hmm ... This seems a bit wordier than I wanted. For some reason I had trouble making more concise statements about this topic. Any suggestions?

[Rogering Rabbit]

John,

“What do you mean by applied accusation? I do not think you are here to burden or blame anyone, and I agree with your reason for posting in the first place.”
Well, in your previous post you wrote: “something that might actually lead to helping people out of depression, instead of trying to put a burden on others.”. As you were responding to my post and I did not see any other posts that seemed apt candidates for “trying to put a burden on others”, I had the impression it therefore applied to me. Consider the point sufficiently clarified.

“I believe anyone without a physical cause for depression (such as brain damage) is able to overcome depression someway somehow eventually, regardless of the method used. ”
I tend not to agree with this, but like you say, it can be argued either way and there will likely never be enough evidence to prove the case convincingly one way or another. If you’d added “to some extent” after “someway somehow”, I’d agree more. If you’d added “if they really want to”, I’d have agreed unconditionally, but then, we already agree that to “really want” is not merely a necessary precondition, but in the case of combating depression often a sufficient one (though I willl continue to disagree on the billionaire front, which also requires a great deal of blind luck, in my view).

“While I understand that someone who has been depressed for a very long time (not directed at anyone in particular, just in general) may interpret positive thoughts of recovery as something that just gets people hopes up, there are also people who interpret those positive thoughts as an encouragement that allows them to change”
I don’t for a minute disagree with this. What I disagree with is any implied message that it’s either easy, or can be done by anyone in any situation.

I have actually fought my way mostly out of depression succesfully a few times; I have won at least two major campaigns combating it in my lifetime. After the first, some decades ago, I very slowly slid back over the period of a decade, through lack of positive reinforcement. I enjoyed some parts of life, but the negative still stubbornly kept outweighing positive experiences. The last time was two years ago, fought over 6 months with the help of a competent and strongly empathetic therapist. I beat most of the depression, only to find that I had no desire left for life, or anything in it, even without what I consider to be clinical depression. So after that, in a period of a mere few months, I allowed myself to lapse (and was aware of this) into old patterns of thought and habits. There is a comfort, a numbness to be found in depression, that does function as an anesthetic against the pain of life.

And today I could not fight my way out of a wet paper bag, let alone my depression.

My point in mentioning this is that I believe that victories against depression can be achieved; but in my experience this in no way guarantees the victories will be permanent, or that mere victory over depression brings happiness. Also, these victories never come cheap, if you are truly in a multi-year depression.

I have contradictory reactions on various levels to whatever is said on this subject and these are emotional; not primarily rational. I realise I am not consistent in my posts here. So be it.

Regards,
Ron.

[Zaulche]

Ron,

Alright, I have a better understanding of things now. As far as I can tell, we actually agree on many points.

I agree that a single victory does not mean permanent closer. For many people, even myself, not being depressed can be a constant battle, and it becomes exponentially harder the longer someone is depressed.

I also definitely understand that this is a personal and emotional topic for you. I take no offense to anything said because I understand this, and I hope that you have not been offended by anything I have said. Unfortunately, due to the nature of a forum, it has taken me longer to understand some of your own thoughts and perceptions a bit longer than if we were talking in person. However, I feel I have a much better understanding now, as I hope you feel the same with me.

I believe people on this forum are here to support each other, so if you ever start another crusade against depression, or are able to combat it and need that positive reinforcement we (or at least I) are here for anyone who needs that extra push.

I agree that depression is very taxing, and overcoming it takes much hard work, discipline, and an enormous amount of willpower. However, I still believe that it can be done, if it is truly desired, and will continue to support anyone who wishes to change.

I will also take what you have said into consideration, and be sure to be more mindful of how I approach the topic so that I do not give false hopes or exaggerated results to others looking for insight into overcoming depression.

I want to thank you for your patience in communicating your ideas to this point, I guess it probably took longer than you had wished, but I appreciate your understanding and perspective.

I think your insight can be a great reminder to everyone out there struggling with depression that you have to be glad for every day and to continue being positive even after initially overcoming depression, otherwise there is the possibility of slipping back into negative habits.

Best Regards,
John