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Welcome to the Personal Development for Smart People Forums, the place for lively, intelligent discussion of all personal growth issues -- physical, mental, financial, social, emotional, spiritual, and more. You're currently viewing as a guest, which gives you limited read-only access. By joining our free community, you'll be able to post your own messages, access many members-only features, see the new messages posted since your last visit, and of course remove this header message. Registration is fast, simple, and free, so please join today. If you arrived here from a search engine, you may want to explore the main site first, which includes hundreds of deep and insightful articles on a variety of personal development topics. |
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07-28-2007, 01:28 AM
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 I found the content of this article valuable but it seemed quite repetitive stylistically. It states the same point in a few different ways, and I noticed that it stated twice that the outrage mindset was a big/huge mistake. IMO, the article could've easily been a couple of paragraphs shorter without losing anything. Quote:
There's a lot of merit to the "teach a man to fish..." idea, but it doesn't work all the way down. If a person is starving and without shelter, they're too weak to 'fish' - they need to be brought up to a basic level before they can help themselves. There are basically three levels of wealth: Financial Independence - all your survival costs (food, shelter etc.) are covered for life. Any additional money you make/have is free to spend or invest on what you want. Financial Dependence - all your survival costs are covered, but you have to work to maintain them. You have at least a little disposable income. Financial Insufficience - Even with work (if you have any) you can't afford the basics of survival. IMO, the situations are different for these three groups and the same approach can't be successfully followed by all three. Note: Credit confuses the issue slightly, enabling you to temporarily function at a higher level. Financially Insufficient people generally don't have access to credit, though. Similarly, skills and reputation make a difference. If someone has fallen to the Financial Insufficience level recently it's possible they can work their way out of it by utilising existing skills and connections.
__________________ When people see things as beautiful, ugliness is created. When people see things as good, evil is created. When the way is forgotten, 'morality' and 'piety' need to be taught. -Dao De Jing, Chapter 2      |
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07-28-2007, 02:04 AM
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| The abundance mindset isn't about material goods, although Steve used the example of the $10,000 hotel room. It's more about a shift in your belief system that accepts the abundance the universe offers us. Not everyone wants to stay in a 5-star luxury resort. They may not vibrate at the frequency that wants something like that. However, someone with an abundance mindset can feel wealthy by knowing that whatever they want, the universe will provide. You can have an abundance mindset and freely accept and be grateful for one penny or a $1 million. As Erin mentioned in a blog posting recently...see a penny, pick it up. |
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07-28-2007, 04:03 AM
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What your generation does lack though is "resourcefulness, imagination and a work ethic..." With all the new resources... you can start a business with nothing more than a PC... with those new resources you can reach an untold number of people in the four quarters of the globe instantaneously... with those new resources... any info that you need is at your fingertips... You guys have tremendous resources that no one ever had before... so, I ask you... why do you feel underprivileged...??? . |
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07-28-2007, 04:10 AM
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I still believe that, at least in North America and Europe... what is needed the most is the proper information and education that this forum provides... and not another handout... . Last edited by Shamou : 07-28-2007 at 04:24 AM. |
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07-28-2007, 11:52 AM
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| I agree with cobaltblue that the basic idea is to believe the universe has plenty and will provide for you if you believe it will. When you throw in the $10,000 dollar example, that idea seems to change for me. That idea adds an addem of: Any purchase is as useful to society as any another. My question is where does responsibility--whatever you deem your personal responsibility to be--enter into a framework of abundance? I also wish someone would explain Erin's article about picking up pennies in context of the "difference between a dime and a penny doesn't matter" statement. And lastly, about the "teach to fish..." Like Keith, I don't think this method works at all levels. Learning to fish is not the first step. You give the jump start so the person can begin to learn to fish. The aim is not to give continual handouts and create dependency, as everyone knows. But I'll be darned if there's even one person here who can say that they have honestly never benefited from charity--of any type. Last edited by Love : 07-28-2007 at 12:22 PM. |
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07-28-2007, 03:32 PM
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If someone is dying of hunger... giving food is not charity... it's emergency care... however, when a person has been hungry all his life... something more then emergency care has to be given... and charity is not it... That person needs the necessary info needed to change the situation around... No one here ever made it all on his own... we all had and gave help... but, at one point... the dependency has to stop... and the steps to reach self-sufficiency has to be taken... . |
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07-28-2007, 06:57 PM
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| Hi All, Based on my income, how do I know it is ok to pay an "x" amount of money for a product? For example, how do I know if $10,000 is an extravagant or wasteful expense? Is there a mathematical formula that allows me to calculate this, so I know, I am paying a reasonable amount of money (based on my income) TIA |
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07-28-2007, 08:22 PM
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Best of luck to you... and welcome to this site... . |
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07-28-2007, 08:32 PM
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| Not everyone in the world can have the kind of lifestyle that involves five thousand square feet of hotel room. I think someone worked out that if everyone in the world lived the lifestyle of the AVERAGE (not wealthy) American, we would need four more planets. If we all lived like jet-setters, I can't even imagine how many planets we would need. Let's invent inter-solar space travel before we use up everything on this planet? Perceived value and real value are very different. Bill Gates is not the worthiest man on the planet.
__________________ Monochrome Rainbow Webdesign - Stylish, affordable webdesign White House Interiors - Custom curtains and blinds in Northamptonshire |
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07-28-2007, 09:10 PM
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07-29-2007, 01:00 AM
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| This is a great article. I'll never be outraged by people who stay in $10K hotel rooms verses $1K rooms that are 80% as good. Although giving $9K to charity instead would have helped people, not getting that more relaxing room incapacitated their ability to work better and efficiently, and that mistake can stop them from giving $100K of value to others while staying at the hotel. That small increase in quality they bought helps the person generate much more than the $9K they would've saved, plus the hotel gets richer too. I love non-zero-sum thinking.  I'd gladly buy a $1000 pair of shoes if it saves me hours in not having to buy new ones as often and that time is worth more than $1000 to me. Especially if I'd have made $1000 is passive income in the time it took me to buy the shoes.  Here's an idea: How much would you be willing to pay to make your life 1 year longer? That might be around how much your time is worth. If you could instantly become X years younger, how much money would you be willing to pay per year?
__________________ Jesus loves you |
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07-29-2007, 03:06 AM
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| Quote from blog post: "Remember that money is social debt. The size of your bank account is a measure of how much society owes you for the value you’ve already contributed." A nice theory, though a wonder how much society owes millionare mob bosses and drug lords for the "value" they have contributed? Also, why only money examples in a post titled "The ABUNDANCE mindset"? I would of thought there would be a lot more to an abundance mindset than money. Increases the web hits I guess. Interesting post thanks. |
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07-29-2007, 03:16 AM
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There are very few decent paying entry level jobs. In fact, when I moved away from Ohio there were very few jobs period, unless you were already an expert in the field. Le me break it down for you Shamou, because I know you believe that my generation is all slackers, and I want to be clear just how far that perception is from the truth. Age - job - wage. 14 - Busser at Bob Evans - $6.00 / hour. 15 - Host at Bob Evans - $7.25 / hour. 16 - Server at Damons - $2.13 / hour. 17 - Grill Cook at Damons - $8.00 / hour. 18 - Grill Supervisor at Damons - $9.00 / hour. 19 - Manager for Steak N Shake - $25k / year. 20 - Assistant GM for Steak N Shake - $28k / year. 21 - Manager for Bob Evans - $30k / year. 21 - Assistant GM for Bob Evans - $34k / year. **Decided I was done with restaurant management - two really bad GMs in a row** 22 - HVAC installer - $8 / hour. 22 - CallTech Tier two tech support agent. - $9 / hour. 22 - CallTech Tier three tech support agent - $10 / hour. 23 - CallTech Tier two supervisor (managing 30 agents) - $11 / hour. 23 - CallTech Tier three supervisor (managing 20 tier three agents) - $11.50 / hour. 24 - CallTech Operations supervisor (managing 200 agents) - $12.50 / hour. 25 - Nationwide Insurance PC support - $15.00 / hour. 25 - Nationwide Insurance Executive PC support - $15.00 / hour. **Moved to California** 26 - Content Manager / Low rent programmer - $20 / hour. It took me over a decade to get to a "good wage" of $15/hour. It may look like the restaurant management jobs were a decent salary, but I was working 65 hour weeks, with overtime thats only about $10/hour. Also, keep in mind, I'm an intelligence outlier, an average employee rarely gets beyond tier two at Calltech. That means they make $9/hour indefinitely, a living wage, but barely. So, you think my generation needs to work harder? Thats the problem? Because I'm not sure what else I could have done, and I know a lot of other people in that same boat. My friend Jason is a super smart, super nice guy who was a paramedic for over a decade and still only made $11 / hour. Then he threw his back out on the job lifting an obese man off a toilet, then lost the workman's comp case because he didn't file a report quickly enough, he had tried to work through the injury thinking it would heal. Then he was unable to find any other work; being a medic was all the experience he had. But you can't be a paramedic with four ruptured discs. Know where he ended up? CallTech, $9/hour. The guy could save anyone's life in a heartbeat, but he's taking DSL tech support calls all day instead, at 35 years old. I operated within the system well as anyone could have. I was plenty resourceful and imaginative in those jobs, had a great work ethic, all that. At times I've worked two full time jobs, and I started early, fourteen is as young as you can legally start working. As of today I've been working at least full time hours for over eight years. It would have taken me another five years or so to hit the $40k / year mark at Nationwide. So, what was the entry level job that you were saying a typical eighteen year old right out of high school should take? You kind of ducked the question. By the way, grill cook jobs only pay $7.00 now instead of $8.00, even though its ten years later. Also, most of CallTech's support is now in the Phillipines.
__________________ Best, Dan Linehan |
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07-29-2007, 05:04 AM
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Society has a very well established set of values, which is why we have laws, prizes such as the Nobel Peace Prize, etc etc. Most people who have the microsoft software aren't computer minded and don't know how to change to a competitior. Bill Gates is rich because he is a good businessman, and dominated the market very quickly. He did not cure cancer, or improve the lives of millions through his career, or invent a new breaking-edge piece of technology. He did not write amazing literature, paint a great picture, or write self-help books. He does give a lot to charity, but this is not society's debt to him, that is his debt to society. Yes, values are subjective to a degree, but they are not entirely subjective. Otherwise you can argue a psychotic serial rapist/killer is as valuable and 'worthy' member of society as Einstein. Afterall, in the rapist/killers mind, they have entirely logical and understandable reasons for doing what they do. As a society we venerate Gandi, Mother Theresa, Einstein... you can make a case for leaders like Churchill. These people may or may not have been rich, but if they were, the riches were incidental. Money is the poorest indicator of social worth there is. Paris Hilton is richer than me, but I wouldn't say she's worthier than me. People on this thread have already pointed out mobsters, drug cartels, pornographers. The pornography industry makes more than any other industry combined. Does that mean it's worthier than any other industry combined, and that the people who work in that industry are invaluable to society? Being rich does NOT mean that you are automatically evil, and I do not run an outrage script. But to believe that being rich automatically makes you good is very naive. Being rich means you're rich. That's it.
__________________ Monochrome Rainbow Webdesign - Stylish, affordable webdesign White House Interiors - Custom curtains and blinds in Northamptonshire |
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07-29-2007, 03:52 PM
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You need to go outside of the paradigm... outside of the box... and that is where, I believe, that you guys fail... at your fingertips (literally) you have the greatest tool for: communication, information and creativity that ever existed... but you don't use it in a creative way... Just look at this forum... almost every young member and his two cousins wants to make money through blogging... most of them could not string two coherent sentences together to save their lives... and worst of all... they want to teach us how to succeed... when they don't even have a dime in their possession... Now, I would like to make it clear that my views on your generation are not addressed specifically to you... you seem to be happy and doing OK for yourself... so, I can only congratulate you on your achievements.. But, you guys need to go crazy... let you imagination run wild... step out of the paradigm... create... don't duplicate... and, above all... strongly hold the fundamental certitude that this little old world is far from being complete... it is just beginning to evolve and we are now at the gateway and brand new and fantastic discoveries and horizons... and, you are the people who will turn this virtual situation into reality... The very best of luck to you... . |
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07-29-2007, 05:19 PM
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We may have been created equal... however being rich drastically changes all that... Money means not having to do things that you otherwise would not do if you had money... money means that the chances are that you will contribute to the overall economy... money means that you will not be a burden to society... Society does not grow and evolve by being pushed from the bottom... it is being pulled from the top... money makes the world go round... and, if you don't believe that... try to do without it... . |
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07-29-2007, 08:20 PM
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| What about people who create negative social value, like criminals, drug lords, con artists, etc. Some of these people can become wealthy by dragging down the rest of society. I think it's possible to be a crook or be financially poor and have an abundance mindset. I also think it's possible to be financially rich and have a poverty mindset. Someone with a multi-million dollar bank account could have a poverty mindset if he doesn't believe that is enough to meet his needs or believes money is very hard to come by. |
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07-29-2007, 08:36 PM
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However a concept is not invalidated by the fact that there are exceptions... Therefore if you are interested in acquiring more money… it would be more beneficial and helpful to adopt an, “Abundance Mentality” then a “Outrage Mindset.” . |
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07-29-2007, 10:42 PM
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| I started being unable to stomach reading the thread (especially when I had something to say festering in my mind), so I decided to just skip to the end and say it. Quote:
Choices are made based on the percentage change a person expects from each choice. So if you have $10, then a gain of $2 is a 20% gain or 120% and a loss of $2 is a 20% loss, or 80%. If you have $10K, however, $2 is a mere 0.02% gain or loss. The last clause, "the expectations of the decision maker," is precisely what Abundance Mindset requires you change. Your expectation must collapse $10 into $10K, such that the 20% gain of $2 is the same as the 0.02% gain of $2. Quote:
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__________________ "I read, I interpret, I think, I criticize, I oppose, I listen, I write, I question, I reply, I quote, I tell, I name, I discuss, I interpolate..., I learn, I teach, I live, therefore I am." -- Marc-Alain Ouaknin, "Mysteries of the Kabbalah", p383. Favorite Essays I Wrote: love, identity & growth, economics, education, equality, definitions. Recent Books I liked: Anansi Boys, Fly By Night, Hyperion. |