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07-28-2007, 01:28 AM
| #31 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Australia
Posts: 1,139
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I found the content of this article valuable but it seemed quite repetitive stylistically. It states the same point in a few different ways, and I noticed that it stated twice that the outrage mindset was a big/huge mistake. IMO, the article could've easily been a couple of paragraphs shorter without losing anything. Quote:
There's a lot of merit to the "teach a man to fish..." idea, but it doesn't work all the way down. If a person is starving and without shelter, they're too weak to 'fish' - they need to be brought up to a basic level before they can help themselves. There are basically three levels of wealth: Financial Independence - all your survival costs (food, shelter etc.) are covered for life. Any additional money you make/have is free to spend or invest on what you want. Financial Dependence - all your survival costs are covered, but you have to work to maintain them. You have at least a little disposable income. Financial Insufficience - Even with work (if you have any) you can't afford the basics of survival. IMO, the situations are different for these three groups and the same approach can't be successfully followed by all three. Note: Credit confuses the issue slightly, enabling you to temporarily function at a higher level. Financially Insufficient people generally don't have access to credit, though. Similarly, skills and reputation make a difference. If someone has fallen to the Financial Insufficience level recently it's possible they can work their way out of it by utilising existing skills and connections. | |
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07-28-2007, 02:04 AM
| #32 (permalink) |
| Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 25
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The abundance mindset isn't about material goods, although Steve used the example of the $10,000 hotel room. It's more about a shift in your belief system that accepts the abundance the universe offers us. Not everyone wants to stay in a 5-star luxury resort. They may not vibrate at the frequency that wants something like that. However, someone with an abundance mindset can feel wealthy by knowing that whatever they want, the universe will provide. You can have an abundance mindset and freely accept and be grateful for one penny or a $1 million. As Erin mentioned in a blog posting recently...see a penny, pick it up.
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07-28-2007, 04:03 AM
| #33 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 3,811
| Quote:
What your generation does lack though is "resourcefulness, imagination and a work ethic..." With all the new resources... you can start a business with nothing more than a PC... with those new resources you can reach an untold number of people in the four quarters of the globe instantaneously... with those new resources... any info that you need is at your fingertips... You guys have tremendous resources that no one ever had before... so, I ask you... why do you feel underprivileged...??? . | |
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07-28-2007, 04:10 AM
| #34 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 3,811
| Quote:
I still believe that, at least in North America and Europe... what is needed the most is the proper information and education that this forum provides... and not another handout... . Last edited by Shamou; 07-28-2007 at 04:24 AM. | |
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07-28-2007, 11:52 AM
| #35 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 513
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I agree with cobaltblue that the basic idea is to believe the universe has plenty and will provide for you if you believe it will. When you throw in the $10,000 dollar example, that idea seems to change for me. That idea adds an addem of: Any purchase is as useful to society as any another. My question is where does responsibility--whatever you deem your personal responsibility to be--enter into a framework of abundance? I also wish someone would explain Erin's article about picking up pennies in context of the "difference between a dime and a penny doesn't matter" statement. And lastly, about the "teach to fish..." Like Keith, I don't think this method works at all levels. Learning to fish is not the first step. You give the jump start so the person can begin to learn to fish. The aim is not to give continual handouts and create dependency, as everyone knows. But I'll be darned if there's even one person here who can say that they have honestly never benefited from charity--of any type. Last edited by Love; 07-28-2007 at 12:22 PM. |
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07-28-2007, 03:32 PM
| #36 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 3,811
| Quote:
If someone is dying of hunger... giving food is not charity... it's emergency care... however, when a person has been hungry all his life... something more then emergency care has to be given... and charity is not it... That person needs the necessary info needed to change the situation around... No one here ever made it all on his own... we all had and gave help... but, at one point... the dependency has to stop... and the steps to reach self-sufficiency has to be taken... . | |
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07-28-2007, 06:57 PM
| #37 (permalink) |
| Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1
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Hi All, Based on my income, how do I know it is ok to pay an "x" amount of money for a product? For example, how do I know if $10,000 is an extravagant or wasteful expense? Is there a mathematical formula that allows me to calculate this, so I know, I am paying a reasonable amount of money (based on my income) TIA |
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07-28-2007, 08:22 PM
| #38 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 3,811
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Best of luck to you... and welcome to this site... . | |
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07-28-2007, 08:32 PM
| #39 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: In a green and bountiful land
Posts: 515
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Not everyone in the world can have the kind of lifestyle that involves five thousand square feet of hotel room. I think someone worked out that if everyone in the world lived the lifestyle of the AVERAGE (not wealthy) American, we would need four more planets. If we all lived like jet-setters, I can't even imagine how many planets we would need. Let's invent inter-solar space travel before we use up everything on this planet? Perceived value and real value are very different. Bill Gates is not the worthiest man on the planet. |
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07-28-2007, 09:10 PM
| #40 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 3,811
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07-29-2007, 01:00 AM
| #42 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: United States
Posts: 102
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This is a great article. I'll never be outraged by people who stay in $10K hotel rooms verses $1K rooms that are 80% as good. Although giving $9K to charity instead would have helped people, not getting that more relaxing room incapacitated their ability to work better and efficiently, and that mistake can stop them from giving $100K of value to others while staying at the hotel. That small increase in quality they bought helps the person generate much more than the $9K they would've saved, plus the hotel gets richer too. I love non-zero-sum thinking.  I'd gladly buy a $1000 pair of shoes if it saves me hours in not having to buy new ones as often and that time is worth more than $1000 to me. Especially if I'd have made $1000 is passive income in the time it took me to buy the shoes.  Here's an idea: How much would you be willing to pay to make your life 1 year longer? That might be around how much your time is worth. If you could instantly become X years younger, how much money would you be willing to pay per year? |
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07-29-2007, 03:06 AM
| #43 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 124
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Quote from blog post: "Remember that money is social debt. The size of your bank account is a measure of how much society owes you for the value you’ve already contributed." A nice theory, though a wonder how much society owes millionare mob bosses and drug lords for the "value" they have contributed? Also, why only money examples in a post titled "The ABUNDANCE mindset"? I would of thought there would be a lot more to an abundance mindset than money. Increases the web hits I guess. Interesting post thanks. |
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07-29-2007, 03:16 AM
| #44 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: San Rafael, CA
Posts: 4,896
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There are very few decent paying entry level jobs. In fact, when I moved away from Ohio there were very few jobs period, unless you were already an expert in the field. Le me break it down for you Shamou, because I know you believe that my generation is all slackers, and I want to be clear just how far that perception is from the truth. Age - job - wage. 14 - Busser at Bob Evans - $6.00 / hour. 15 - Host at Bob Evans - $7.25 / hour. 16 - Server at Damons - $2.13 / hour. 17 - Grill Cook at Damons - $8.00 / hour. 18 - Grill Supervisor at Damons - $9.00 / hour. 19 - Manager for Steak N Shake - $25k / year. 20 - Assistant GM for Steak N Shake - $28k / year. 21 - Manager for Bob Evans - $30k / year. 21 - Assistant GM for Bob Evans - $34k / year. **Decided I was done with restaurant management - two really bad GMs in a row** 22 - HVAC installer - $8 / hour. 22 - CallTech Tier two tech support agent. - $9 / hour. 22 - CallTech Tier three tech support agent - $10 / hour. 23 - CallTech Tier two supervisor (managing 30 agents) - $11 / hour. 23 - CallTech Tier three supervisor (managing 20 tier three agents) - $11.50 / hour. 24 - CallTech Operations supervisor (managing 200 agents) - $12.50 / hour. 25 - Nationwide Insurance PC support - $15.00 / hour. 25 - Nationwide Insurance Executive PC support - $15.00 / hour. **Moved to California** 26 - Content Manager / Low rent programmer - $20 / hour. It took me over a decade to get to a "good wage" of $15/hour. It may look like the restaurant management jobs were a decent salary, but I was working 65 hour weeks, with overtime thats only about $10/hour. Also, keep in mind, I'm an intelligence outlier, an average employee rarely gets beyond tier two at Calltech. That means they make $9/hour indefinitely, a living wage, but barely. So, you think my generation needs to work harder? Thats the problem? Because I'm not sure what else I could have done, and I know a lot of other people in that same boat. My friend Jason is a super smart, super nice guy who was a paramedic for over a decade and still only made $11 / hour. Then he threw his back out on the job lifting an obese man off a toilet, then lost the workman's comp case because he didn't file a report quickly enough, he had tried to work through the injury thinking it would heal. Then he was unable to find any other work; being a medic was all the experience he had. But you can't be a paramedic with four ruptured discs. Know where he ended up? CallTech, $9/hour. The guy could save anyone's life in a heartbeat, but he's taking DSL tech support calls all day instead, at 35 years old. I operated within the system well as anyone could have. I was plenty resourceful and imaginative in those jobs, had a great work ethic, all that. At times I've worked two full time jobs, and I started early, fourteen is as young as you can legally start working. As of today I've been working at least full time hours for over eight years. It would have taken me another five years or so to hit the $40k / year mark at Nationwide. So, what was the entry level job that you were saying a typical eighteen year old right out of high school should take? You kind of ducked the question. By the way, grill cook jobs only pay $7.00 now instead of $8.00, even though its ten years later. Also, most of CallTech's support is now in the Phillipines. | |
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07-29-2007, 05:04 AM
| #45 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: In a green and bountiful land
Posts: 515
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Society has a very well established set of values, which is why we have laws, prizes such as the Nobel Peace Prize, etc etc. Most people who have the microsoft software aren't computer minded and don't know how to change to a competitior. Bill Gates is rich because he is a good businessman, and dominated the market very quickly. He did not cure cancer, or improve the lives of millions through his career, or invent a new breaking-edge piece of technology. He did not write amazing literature, paint a great picture, or write self-help books. He does give a lot to charity, but this is not society's debt to him, that is his debt to society. Yes, values are subjective to a degree, but they are not entirely subjective. Otherwise you can argue a psychotic serial rapist/killer is as valuable and 'worthy' member of society as Einstein. Afterall, in the rapist/killers mind, they have entirely logical and understandable reasons for doing what they do. As a society we venerate Gandi, Mother Theresa, Einstein... you can make a case for leaders like Churchill. These people may or may not have been rich, but if they were, the riches were incidental. Money is the poorest indicator of social worth there is. Paris Hilton is richer than me, but I wouldn't say she's worthier than me. People on this thread have already pointed out mobsters, drug cartels, pornographers. The pornography industry makes more than any other industry combined. Does that mean it's worthier than any other industry combined, and that the people who work in that industry are invaluable to society? Being rich does NOT mean that you are automatically evil, and I do not run an outrage script. But to believe that being rich automatically makes you good is very naive. Being rich means you're rich. That's it. | |
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07-29-2007, 03:52 PM
| #46 (permalink) | |||
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 3,811
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You need to go outside of the paradigm... outside of the box... and that is where, I believe, that you guys fail... at your fingertips (literally) you have the greatest tool for: communication, information and creativity that ever existed... but you don't use it in a creative way... Just look at this forum... almost every young member and his two cousins wants to make money through blogging... most of them could not string two coherent sentences together to save their lives... and worst of all... they want to teach us how to succeed... when they don't even have a dime in their possession... Now, I would like to make it clear that my views on your generation are not addressed specifically to you... you seem to be happy and doing OK for yourself... so, I can only congratulate you on your achievements.. But, you guys need to go crazy... let you imagination run wild... step out of the paradigm... create... don't duplicate... and, above all... strongly hold the fundamental certitude that this little old world is far from being complete... it is just beginning to evolve and we are now at the gateway and brand new and fantastic discoveries and horizons... and, you are the people who will turn this virtual situation into reality... The very best of luck to you... . | |||
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07-29-2007, 05:19 PM
| #47 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 3,811
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We may have been created equal... however being rich drastically changes all that... Money means not having to do things that you otherwise would not do if you had money... money means that the chances are that you will contribute to the overall economy... money means that you will not be a burden to society... Society does not grow and evolve by being pushed from the bottom... it is being pulled from the top... money makes the world go round... and, if you don't believe that... try to do without it... . | |
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07-29-2007, 08:20 PM
| #48 (permalink) |
| Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 25
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What about people who create negative social value, like criminals, drug lords, con artists, etc. Some of these people can become wealthy by dragging down the rest of society. I think it's possible to be a crook or be financially poor and have an abundance mindset. I also think it's possible to be financially rich and have a poverty mindset. Someone with a multi-million dollar bank account could have a poverty mindset if he doesn't believe that is enough to meet his needs or believes money is very hard to come by. |
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07-29-2007, 08:36 PM
| #49 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 3,811
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However a concept is not invalidated by the fact that there are exceptions... Therefore if you are interested in acquiring more money… it would be more beneficial and helpful to adopt an, “Abundance Mentality” then a “Outrage Mindset.” . | |
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07-29-2007, 10:42 PM
| #50 (permalink) | |||
| Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA
Posts: 3,977
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I started being unable to stomach reading the thread (especially when I had something to say festering in my mind), so I decided to just skip to the end and say it. Quote:
Choices are made based on the percentage change a person expects from each choice. So if you have $10, then a gain of $2 is a 20% gain or 120% and a loss of $2 is a 20% loss, or 80%. If you have $10K, however, $2 is a mere 0.02% gain or loss. The last clause, "the expectations of the decision maker," is precisely what Abundance Mindset requires you change. Your expectation must collapse $10 into $10K, such that the 20% gain of $2 is the same as the 0.02% gain of $2. Quote:
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07-30-2007, 02:29 AM
| #51 (permalink) | ||
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 325
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07-30-2007, 09:41 AM
| #52 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: In a green and bountiful land
Posts: 515
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I spend money on food, rent, and plane tickets. That's it. When I get an allotment, I am not going to spend money on food. Rich people want to preserve the status quo - just look at the oil companies sitting on patents for hybrid cars four or five years ago. It's only taken significant social pressure from the MIDDLE of society (the poor not tending to drive cars) that has changed that. To argue that the bottom sector of society is not responsible for change - tha's crazy. The rich may have the occasional leader/speaker/motivator that does change things, but the average rich businessman is selling stocks, sitting on company boards arranging for them to have six billion bonuses whilst at the same time undermining workers rights. Revolutions have occured in many countries, including the USA, and those do not come from the wealthy, stable, happy classes. You say to think outside the system, but you yourself seem to very trapped in the capitalist system that says you NEED money to do anything. Money is a piece of paper with a promise on it. A promise that is not backed up by anything real. Yes, it is useful, yes, it can be achieved both in a positive fashion and a negative fashion, but you cannot generalise to 'the rich' the way you do. How many lottery winners or people who inherit from wealthy families just fritter it away on expensive houses and holidays? Do they contribute anything? No. Wheras a relatively underpaid doctor or a scientist or an artist might create something that really changes everything, the whole way we live or think. Did they do it because they had money? No. They probably did it because they were intelligent, creative, and had powerful personalities. They may even have done it because they verged on insane. Van Gogh created paintings that have become part of our artistic heritage. They speak emotionally to many people. He is incredibly successful, and those paintings are worth millions. Yet he was impoverished, unhappy, labelled insane, and ended with self-mutilation and suicide. | |
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07-30-2007, 01:17 PM
| #53 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,676
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This reminds me... I few years ago I was vacationing in the far east with my parents, I got my own 100$ bungalow while my younger brothers and parents were in a big villa together. Then the Tzunami happened. I told my parents, I have a great idea: why dont I move into the villa for a few days and the few houndreds we will save we can donate to the tzunami victims. It will be a family sacrafice for the sake of others. my parents looked at me as if I fell from the moon, completely disagreed and thought I was crazy. I later realised that when I live too extravagently (which is very relative) I feel guilty that others dont have enough, and maybe why I have trouble making money. My mother loves money and thats why she has focused her efforts to make it in the last years. and I realise I have a lot to learn from her. In my surroundings, modestly and social care are regarded as highly valued traits. Unlike in the US where people talk so openly about their wish to make lots of money. Many of (artist) friends cant even stand watching "The Secret" they say its too American and money oriented. I know that the problem is in thier "modesty" mindset, but I admit its hard to not let this influence me. Im trying |
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07-30-2007, 10:15 PM
| #54 (permalink) | ||||
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 3,811
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The words “change” and the term “grow and evolve” have vastly different meanings… when he bottom sector yells loud enough… changes will be made… but they themselves will not make those changes… those with means and power will do it… Quote:
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And, the fact that his painting are worth millions is not due to Van Gogh… but to society’s perception of what a Van Gogh is worth… A Van Gogh that is not authenticated is not worth the canvas it was painted on… so, how can you say that the value of a Van Gogh painting is really worth millions…??? . | ||||
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07-31-2007, 10:18 PM
| #55 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 219
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Every day, I find myself talking with college graduates and realizing that I'm many times smarter than they are, but simply not as conformed into the "ideal" model of a worker. Steve's idea of the rich making value and the poor not making value is frankly a load of crap, because of the following: 1. A teacher provides something that potentially affects millions or even billions of people, and is payed with the scrapings of the government's dinner table. 2. A daytrader in stocks or real-estate does three things: buy low, sell high, and cause inflation. They don't provide value. They provide negative value. Yet they get more money than many people ever make in their whole lifetimes. If you want to say, "well that's an exception", I hope you realize that that essentially takes this entire theory and turns it on its head. If people were paid according to the amount of social value they provided, housewives would make millions if not billions of dollars, while their yuppie husbands would make minimum wage as CEO's, let alone middle managers. If people were paid according to the amount of social value they provided, the Bush Administration would be collectively destitute and Rupert Merdoch would be homeless and walking around from asylum to asylum, damning the fairness of the world. If people were paid according to the amount of social value they provided, independant film actors would be rich, blockbuster actors would be just making it, and hip-hop rappers would mostly be filming their music videos with plastic jewelry, stolen clothing, and using their actual homes in the projects as the sets. If people were paid according to the amount of social value they provided, rich priests would be poor, and poor priests would be rich. If people were paid according to the amount of social value they provided, I would be the wealthiest person I knew, and Jesus Christ would have been paid subsidies by the Roman Emperor while he was still alive, rather than after he died. The list goes on, and to continue it would be moot. Should it be like this? Of course! But is it like this? I'm afraid not. Hands up who wants to change it, and a free drink for whoever has a plan to do so. ~ David |
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07-31-2007, 10:30 PM
| #56 (permalink) | |||||
| Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: In a green and bountiful land
Posts: 515
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Those with "means" and "power" are not always the same as those with money. When China became socialist it was due to poor people making changes through violent and tactical acts. When China went crazy was due to the rich leader and his equally rich wife. The American Revolution was the Americans versus the wealthy and powerful British. Votes for women came about because of guerrilla tactics from the housewives and WW2 female factory workers. It did not occur because of the powerful businessmen of that time, who rather did everything they could to prevent it. Slavery was fought against and finally abolished by the brave actions of underground movements helping to run slaves to safety. The rich southern land-owners wanted only to maintain slavery and thus maintain their lifestyle. Gay rights movements are driven by the poor people who are actually beaten and penalised for being gay. Quote:
There's an awful lot of money that is just data in computers, and isn't even backed by paper anymore. Quote:
If you set out to discover a cure for cancer, and you do, then you have been successful. If you don't make any money out of it, that does not impact the worth of your discovery. Quote:
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08-01-2007, 01:00 AM
| #60 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA
Posts: 3,977
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"Criminals" is a useless term; under the strictest of definitions, most of us have bent the law far enough to merit discipline. However, I think we can agree that the defining aspect of being criminal, in and of itself, does not actively contribute social value. So, what you're talking about above is not social value. However, cobaltblue09 said "criminals, drug lords, con artists, etc." He said this, specifically, by pointing out that people can become wealthy without providing social value. However, these people do provide social value. Ignoring the infrastructure necessary for largescale operations that provide employment opportunities (if in service to something despicable), their crimes are possible only because they are exchanging value for value. This is an essential understanding in economics: a transaction takes place when both parties receive increased value from the trade. The value for the criminal is obvious: they get money, and money is happifying, or something. The value for the victim, however, ranges from whatever mind-warp they want from that particular drug to whatever deceived understanding they settle upon after being fooled by a confidence man. We understand these things to be bad as a general principle. We generally say that Drugs R t3h Bad, nevermind that the distinction in the pharmacy is just FDA approval and a bulk discount bottle from Costco can still kill you. We generally agree that deception is wrong, especially when the deceived persons are ultimately harmed in the long run (if they are, which they by no means always are). However, that only means that we think they're wrong. And in fact, we don't. The War on Drugs aside (because it's about as winnable as the War on Terrorism) the only difference between your average, intelligent person (or, if you prefer, your average office gossip) and a con artist is their level of professionalism. The only reason we dislike con artists is because they're competent, consistent, and make a career out of their deceit. What is social value, but that which is valuable to society? And how can you really say these people aren't providing it when they clearly are, just as an assembly line foreman provides social value? | |
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