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07-25-2007, 09:03 PM
| #2 (permalink) |
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 3,811
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Beautiful blog Steve...  You were signing my song there... thank you...  For a more comprehensive study of “quality” and its overall effect I would suggest the book, “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” by Robert M. Pirsig… Here is an excerpt… "… if he takes whatever dull job he’s stuck with – and they are all, sooner or later, dull – and, just to keep himself amused, starts to look for options of Quality, and secretly pursues these options, just for their own sake, thus making an art out of what he is doing, he’s likely to discover that he becomes a much more interesting person and much less of an object to the people around him because his Quality decisions change him too. And not only the job and him, but others too because the Quality tends to fan out like waves. The Quality job he didn’t think anyone was going to see is seen, and the person who sees it feels a little better because of it, and is likely to pass that feeling on to others, and in that way the Quality tends to keep on going. My personal feeling is that this is how any further improvement of the world will be done: by individuals making Quality decisions and that’s all." . |
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07-25-2007, 09:08 PM
| #3 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: On the internet
Posts: 129
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I remember a book on the study of millionaires' lives. They say the average millionaires are frugal. Meaning they mostly live under their mean. I guess Steve Pavlina also live under his mean too. |
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07-25-2007, 09:23 PM
| #4 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 3,811
| Quote:
Those millionaire could dig into their capital and get the expensive toys (planes, Ferrari, expensive boats etc...) but, they may opt for security... and live within a state of quality surroundings but not necessarily stretch it to the limit that they could afford... . | |
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07-25-2007, 10:01 PM
| #5 (permalink) | |
| Master  Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 5,988
 | Quote:
Note the difference between being intelligently frugal (living below your means but still creating a lifestyle you enjoy) vs. being cheap (living so far below your means that you end up lowering your standards and contributing less than you're capable of). I don't advocate being lavishly wasteful, but what seems lavish to one person may in fact be very frugal and efficient to another. I once read a book called How to Survive Without a Salary, which was about a guy who was so cheap, he'd invest extraordinary amounts of time just to save a few extra dollars. While it was an interesting and creative read, the overall strategy didn't seem very intelligent to me. This was long before eBay. | |
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07-25-2007, 10:33 PM
| #6 (permalink) |
| Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4
| Consumption of Renewable vs. Non-renewable Resources
Steve, Nice thoughtful post. Except there is one aspect that I thought you might address, but seems to be completely left out. That is the distinction between consuming "renewable" vs. "non-renewable" resources. Or maybe more precisely, the scale of non-renewable resource consumption. For most of the examples you spoke of, such as an expensive dinner, expensive shoes, and expensive car, the consumption of non-renewable resources (including environmental health) is almost certainly a nonlinear function of the cost. In other words, much higher cost does not necessarily mean much higher consumption. On the other hand, a big house may result in significantly higher consumption (lumber, electricity from coal, etc.). Of course, often these potential costs can be offset by spending even more money; for example, by choosing environmentally friendly options such as solar panels on your house. Given the strain of population growth on valuable non-renewable resources, I think it is prudent to take these considerations into account. To a certain extent, you can justify consumption by providing value, as you mentioned. But this kind of thinking is also what keeps our major corporations moving headlong toward making our environment uninhabitable by externalizing costs wherever possible. Something to consider, at least. Peace, Mike The Absent Mind |
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07-26-2007, 01:22 AM
| #7 (permalink) |
| Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1
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Well said, mslack. It can be a difficult balancing act, spending value to generate (hopefully more) value, while being thoughtful about consumption. No easy answers, but if people are at least thinking about why they spend and not just mindlessly consuming, it's a start. |
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07-26-2007, 01:36 AM
| #8 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 3,811
| Quote:
Now, the point that you bring is certainly valid and highly important... but it has very little to do with Steve's blog... This blog is addressing the "scarcity mentality" in people... and not the scarcity of non renewable resources... Both topics probably are of equal importance... but this forum is mainly about "Personal Development" which implies a materialistic aspect... if "Personal Development" did not hold the promise of having more... why would people put in the effort to achieve it...??? Personal Development has made it possible for a countless number of people to achieve success... to become more and contribute more to society... The "scarcity mentality" is a big part of the problem that has to be addressed if we want even more people to enjoy the "good" life and contribute more... and I believe that Steve's blog is a major contribution toward that objective... . | |
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07-26-2007, 02:13 AM
| #9 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 114
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Good points, mslack. One thing to consider in this post is the true nature of the abundance mindset. If I'm thinking that I need to rush out and consume big cars, big houses, and expensive dinners right now, then I might be fearful that my financial abundance is temporary. If I have a true abundance mindset, I know that all I need will be available to me when I desire it. So there's no need to rush. It's also been shown that happier people spend money on experiences, not thing. See the Science of Happiness by Stefan Klein and Stephan Lehmann. So Steve's examples of massages and great dinners are a good match for the abundance mindset. |
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07-26-2007, 02:42 AM
| #10 (permalink) | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4
| Quote:
I disagree that the promise of having "more" is what motivates people toward personal development. It may in some cases, but certainly not all. The very desire for "more" implies that what one already has is insufficient. This is what I would call the condition of scarcity. Peace, Mike | |
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07-26-2007, 03:43 AM
| #11 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Netherlands
Posts: 821
| Quote:
It almost feels like you are implying that a desire for more is 'bad or 'evil'... | |
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07-26-2007, 04:14 AM
| #12 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 3,811
| Quote:
Life is growth... and the moment that you stop growing... you start withering and dying... The growth of humanity was not done by the timid souls who sit on a rock and smell the flowers... it was done by people who dared to open new vistas... break down barriers... and open new frontiers... That is the way that it has been done until now... and I feel confident that it's not about to change.. . | |
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07-26-2007, 04:25 AM
| #13 (permalink) | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4
| Quote:
Still, wanting more can in many cases be indicative of a scarcity mindset (for example, if one feels he or she really needs more). In other cases, it can have nothing to do with scarcity. It really depends on the context. Namaste, Mike | |
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07-26-2007, 04:41 AM
| #15 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Netherlands
Posts: 821
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07-26-2007, 06:30 AM
| #17 (permalink) | ||||
| Family Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: San Rafael, CA
Posts: 4,896
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I disagree with elements of this post. I don't think being grateful means what you think it means. Right now, I live in Marin county, the richest county in the world. I didn't grow up here, I moved here from central Ohio. The gratitude script is ran a lot here, to justify expensive purchases. My boss (at my non-profit) drives a $141k Porsche. Here are some other examples used in the article: Quote:
Let's see what we really got instead: Quote:
I'd guess about 2% of your $10,000 went anywhere but to the owners, right into their pockets. Of course, there are very few owner operated rooms that cost that much, so that $9,800 goes directly to the Trumps or the Hiltons. Quote:
Don't you think Porsche could start manufacturing the aircar today if they really wanted to? But they don't. When you give them $100,000, it goes towards the status quo, which, if you haven't noticed, is a pretty poor thing to donate to. By not giving the money to aircar, or solar dye cell research, or any other ecologically sound venture you've actually created a $200,000 swing in the wrong direction if you consider the opportunity cost. I understand buying a house that is conducive to a peaceful home life, thats pretty crucial. But why buy a laptop that costs three and a half times more than what you needed? What happened to living consciously? I think you get the gist. For someone who wrote, Quote:
//Still outraged by people who desperately try to justify being pandered to while others starve. | ||||
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07-26-2007, 09:12 AM
| #18 (permalink) | ||
| Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2
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I was about to write a response like that to this post myself, but you beat me to it. I totally agree with your disappointment. But this way of trying to justify the spending of their new riches isn't something new. And I can see the temptation and need to justify it. Steve is, as I know him through his writings, a conscious person to whom it is very important to live a "congruent" life in harmony with his own chosen values. And thus.. Shamou said: Quote:
Anyway this might be the sign to move on. Take care! Espen | ||
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07-26-2007, 10:02 AM
| #19 (permalink) |
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Inside the Container
Posts: 1,543
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The only thing I can take from this latest blog post is the importance of helping others through contribution, when you think "How can I be successsful while helping others" that is a great approach to achieving success. People's perception of wasting money are very extreme across all social levels. Do we really expect Bill Gates to live in a poor suburb and drive a beat up old bomb? Could he? Should he? It really doesn't matter what other people do, it's what you do that matters. Max |
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07-26-2007, 11:28 AM
| #20 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,629
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To me, the feeling of abundance is one of having all that I need/not needing anything. If wants will always increase, reaching out to satisfy them doesn’t really seem to work. It’s just a growing cancer that need be excised. Some books get into this, such as The Myth of Freedom and the Way of Meditation by Pema Chodron’s Tibetan Buddhist teacher Chogyam Trungpa. There’s nothing wrong with seeking quality products, particularly as an adjunct to mass consumerism. If one would have to continually buy new $100 dress shoes, while a $300 pair could last a lifetime, materially and financially it’d be better to spring for the $300 pair. There’s often a happy medium between cheap crap and something that is simply meant to be a sign of wealth. No one needs a Rolex, except to present a certain image or feel better about themselves (and wouldn’t personal/spiritual growth demand getting that self-worth from within?). The medium would be something that serves its purpose well and lasts for as long as needed, without undue expense. One of my uncles lives by the Golden Gate bridge in Marin county, and though he’s likely easily worth 7+ figures, he spends his month off each year working with a friend’s non-profit helping Nepali children receive education, and when he’s home he opts to ride his bike, catch a bus, or paddle his shell to where he’s going rather than drive. Rather than leading a life of wanton consumption he opts for a more holistic lifestyle, adopting rescue animals rather than buying a pedigree, and wearing comfortable clothes that could likely be had for less than $100 rather than Armani. He and his family are among the happiest, most productive people I know, enjoying their work more than what it enables them to buy. From everything I read, people who become rich due it because they love the work itself, with money not serving as sufficient motivation. I wouldn’t have Bill Gates live in a bad part of town with a clunky car, but why not a well cared for home with a few hundred square feet per inhabitant, maybe 1000 sq ft in total, a bicycle for most trips, and a reliable Toyota Camry if he feels a need for a car on occasion? I do remember experiencing a great deal of gratitude upon flying first class as a gift, and feeling that all seats should be so nice. The only reservation I would have about that now is increased fuel use per person. Find a way to do it without additional stress on the environment and I may be all for it. The same for big homes. If they can be built with sustainable materials and not require heating or cooling with fossil fuels, fine. In general I prefer things small and simple. To me simplicity is a wonderful luxury in itself. One more thing: if someone needs a $10,000 night at a hotel to motivate him to do his job, maybe he's in the wrong field. Last edited by openeyes; 07-26-2007 at 11:38 AM. |
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07-26-2007, 11:33 AM
| #21 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 513
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Mslack and Dan.Linehan, I found your points very interesting. What if the next step up for someone purchasing a car were a huge gas guzzler? Does the money that sends through the system (again, to whom?) benefit the lower ranks of society or merely those who already have the wealth? And no, I don't think personal development implies materialism at all. I was surprised to hear you suggest that, Shamou. I think it's about being better people. Steve, you said that a couple of years ago you would have thought differently. What would that Steve have said to the arguments you make now? Last edited by Love; 07-26-2007 at 11:36 AM. |
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07-26-2007, 01:19 PM
| #22 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,606
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I for one really enjoyed reading the blog post. Thanks for the excellent article Steve. I think money is cyclical. Money spent always benefit others even if most of the money goes to the owner of the business, as then that owner spends the money benefiting even more people. Even if the owner doesn't spend that money and puts it in savings, the bank in turn loans out most of that money to either individuals who need money or to other businesses that are creating jobs. Last edited by seeker5; 07-26-2007 at 01:30 PM. |
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07-26-2007, 02:07 PM
| #23 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 452
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I can perfectly relate to the first part of the post. My income has quadrupled at one point and I notice, that I started paying less attention to the price of everyday things. I felt ashamed to be behaving like this after years of frugal living. But then I did a calculation and it turned out that at my current time-value, it is actually cheaper to buy more expensive stuff then hunt for discounted items. In my calculations I make sure, that I actually use the time saved for making more money. The quote that made Dan.Linehan angry, is just wrong argument. The reason that luxury items or services are so expensive is not of their higher quality. It's because they allow the customers to demonstrate their social status. Vertu phones, Rolex watches, presidential suites in hotels - you get the idea. And these items are not exceptional. The companies that provide such products are niche companies. They spend huge amount of money for marketing and convincing people that their products equal high status in society. They cater to the deeply ingrained need of descendants of peasants to be like the descendants of aristocrats. The need of New Rich to be like the Old Money. So, these companies can operate at any profit margine they would like. Some have low profits and must charge huge amounts of money for their services, some do not. It is a well known fact that Porsche is the most profitable automaker. Now, as far as I understand, Steve didn't buy his Porshe yet. So let's not attack him for the other people transgressions.  I think we should appreciate this unique opportunity to peek into the inner world of a person who underwent such rapid wealth increase, as Steve did. I'm not sure that many us wouldn't need any adjustment period if we start making that much money. As for the "feed the poor first" argument, Dan proposes, I disagree. If Bill Gates would have given first profits of his company to the charity, he wouldn't be able to donate tens of billions of dollars to charity now. Steve is the owner of a very successful, but still very young business. This business hasn't survived any serious crisis, that happen from time to time in the internet. The resposible owner of this business would be wise to reinvest the income, to diversify his assets, to hire staff, however positive-thinking he is. And I'm sure, he is doing or planning just that and not throwing money away at a rate of $40K per month. |
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07-26-2007, 02:32 PM
| #24 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Michigan
Posts: 132
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I completely agree with Ilya. I work 40 hours a week. I work hard. If I work even harder, I'm going to use that extra money to buy a steak for myself. You can count on it. But this is not to be confused with the fact that I am generally a helpful and giving person. Excellent post, Steve. |
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07-26-2007, 04:18 PM
| #25 (permalink) |
| Administrator  Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 4,593
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I can certainly vouch for the fact that Steve is not materialistic. We share one car even though we can easily afford to buy another one, and it's a Honda CRV which we researched heavily before we bought because our number one concern was not price, but gas economy and having room for both car seats. Ever since I've known him he has wanted to drive a porsche but he still does not have one even though he could afford one of those too. I told him I would buy him a nicer watch to wear for when he's in his business suit speaking because the one he wears is his nerdy, digital, do-everything-except-make-your-breakfast watch and frankly looks pretty bad with his business suit. But he would have none of it. Doesn't want to wear a jewelry-style watch even if it looks better. In general, Steve and I are both very into quality. Before we make a major purchase we research it (tv, car, vacuum cleaner, etc.) usually on consumerreports.org to make sure we get something that will satisfy our needs and last a long time. We have never flown first class, never stayed in a hotel room other than the standard, (although once I paid an extra $15 to have a view of the ocean which I don't regret). We sometimes remark to ourselves how hard it is for us to buy luxury items because we've always been very frugal. I can't see this changing in the future even when we have millions in the bank. Neither one of us is motivated by money; we're motivated by providing value to others. But we definitely see where money can move things along in a direction we'd like to see them move along in. We've discussed using our money to invest in vegan restaurants, if only someone was willing to open one here in Vegas. We see having excess money as a privilege that comes with the responsibility to use it wisely and for the greater good. |
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07-26-2007, 04:20 PM
| #26 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 3,811
| Quote:
It is so much easier to be nice and loving when you are living the good life… and, it’s a non brainer that you can contribute more when you have more… Money is not a zero-sum game… what you have or own does not take anything away from anyone else… as a matter of fact… it does contribute to everyone else… the money that you spend does benefit others… and you also serve as an example by being part of the solution rather than being part of the problem… I have been in PD for decades… and I have yet to find anyone seriously interested in PD who was not also interested in having more… I have read most books on PD… and they all say the same thing… if you want to feel good and feel satisfaction… you must contribute… but, how can you contribute if you find it hard to satisfy your own needs…??? Money is power… money is good… hiding our head in the sand and denying it will serve no purpose… . | |
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07-26-2007, 04:41 PM
| #27 (permalink) |
| Master Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 5,988
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@Dan & Espen: I expected someone would make that argument... surprised it didn't come a little sooner. I simply don't buy it though. It sounds reasonably noble, but in practice it generates zero results. It's the scarcity mindset combined with lightworker syndrome, thinking that the best way to help others is through self-sacrifice, that it's wrong for you to have something when others are suffering. All this does is paralyze people, leaving them in a demotivated state where they help neither others nor themselves to a great extent. This mindset really has to go. It doesn't do any of us any good. A world where everyone lives in a state of pity towards everyone else is not what I'd call living consciously. I believe we are here to shine, to do our very best, and to serve as an example to others of how to be happy, fulfilled, AND of service to the greater good. I happen to believe it's possible to live in such a way that all of those are accomplished. It's been my experience that the people who are really contributing their best are also those who enjoy the best life has to offer. For some people it's material comforts, while for others it's the joy of being surrounded by supportive friends. Even Jesus surrounded himself with 12 buddies who called him "Lord." Think he might have enjoyed that a little? Joining the unhappy in their unhappiness does not help the unhappy, nor does joining the poor in poverty or the sick in illness. I don't deny that people are suffering, but I think the best way we can help them is to become shining examples of the exact opposite. Now I could care less about a Rolex watch. I wear a $99 Casio G-Shock digital watch, which can be run over by a car without breaking. But I wouldn't hold it against someone who consciously decides a Rolex is what they want and earns the money to buy it. |
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07-26-2007, 04:44 PM
| #28 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: San Rafael, CA
Posts: 4,896
| Quote:
By all means, its super important to do what you have to to meet your goals. I just don't see what goals anyone could be trying to meet by buying a crazy expensive car or renting a luxery suite. I recently bought a $700 juicer to experiment with in recipe design, and for future use in a commercial space. But that puppy will be around for years, and it'll always be worth $700. That's a far cry from a $1k hotel suite with no lasting value, or a $50k new car. The Yaris is $12k for a new 2007 with both the highest MPG ratings and best expected reliability of any non-hybrid. | |
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07-26-2007, 04:53 PM
| #29 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: San Rafael, CA
Posts: 4,896
| Quote:
On 35k I:
This month I'm going hang gliding, rock climbing, and volunteering with Seva. No scarcity here. It just doesn't cost more than 35k/year or so to live really, really, well, and I make more than that. And how is paying $50 to restore someone's eyesight zero results? | |
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