Quality and Contribution (Blog)

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by AdamR

Of course, that's true. But I don't think Steve has proven anything either (not that he's necessarily trying to), and it's useful to take into consideration such a glaring contradiction to his view, especially when it's someone who's richer than practically 100% of the world.

PD and motivation are far from being exact sciences... and nothing can be proven absolutely...

However, I am grateful for leaders like Steve who will emit opinions... and share experiences... so that those of us who are trying to to improve can find some references where we can base our own thoughts and base our own opinions...

BTW... since you are a new member, I would like to extend a warm welcome to you... and I'll looking forward to reading your posts and hopefully, share, learn and grow with you...

Have a very good day...

.

[Kiba]

Who care about a person who is really wealthy if he or she earn it honestly?

You can't expect a person to spend every dimes on every worthy causes in the world. What you may expect form them is the values they created and maybe a cause they're working for.

Why apply your skills and energy to a cause you're particularly suited at?

Visionary hackers create almost entire operating system so they can just have the gift of sharing, but you can't expect them to coordinate humanitarian effort with logistic problems. Nor can you expect leaders like MLK to really be effective nor understand issues that practically only hackers and some pragmatic computer users care about.

You can't expect a person to work at every issues and causes worth caring about.

[Love]

I’m interpreting Steve’s article to mean that any purchase is as valuable to the public as any other. (Is that correct?)
I accept that I will not always be able to understand the value of a purchase to any particular person.
That said, I’m not going to stop making judgments about what’s “worth it.”
For example, I think our current war is a waste of money and lives.
I think, according to that article, that means that I am in a scarcity mindset. There is some value to money spent on the war, some improvement to the military, etc. and I am not seeing it. Because I refuse to see it and think the money is wasted and therefore finite, I’m in a scarcity mindset.
Ok.

[InterfaceLeader]

It's kind of a Victorian Charity trap...

If people are dependent on the hand-outs of the wealthy, they never achieve any kind of independence (give a man a fish...). You can NOT change the world through charity. Yes, you can make a difference to ten or twenty of fifty people... but the next generation will have exactly the same problem.

What you can do is get into a position where you impact the *structure* of society... that is to say, get into the position where you can create a free-standing self-sufficient health care system. Current examples of this are countries where every citizen is taxed according to their means, and then have access to a doctor or to medicine anytime they need it. If they never need it, then they have created a surplus in the system that can then cover someone who is born disabled or someone who has some kind of chronic illness.

Giving $15 to make someone see is a very laudable and valuable enterprise. But a HUGE part of it's 'value' is in how we then get to see ourselves. We see ourselves as 'giving' 'self-sacrificing' 'charitable'. Effectively it puts us into the position of beneficiary, which is just as much a status symbol as a porsche....

I don't agree with rampant consumerism of things that affect the enviroment though. I'm currently in England, where the flooding caused by various factors linked to global warming has made life pretty uncomfortable. Saying to 'drop it from my awareness' is actually impossible. As I would drown o.o

However, I don't see this as linked to money - to me, value in an object is linked to how sustainable it is. So I happily spend over the odds on locally sourced, organic products, with minimal packaging - from food, to clothing, to cosmetics...

It's not that spending $100 000 on a car is bad. I would spend $100 000 on a car IF it met my value judgements (i.e. was not powered by gas, amongst other things [and if I could drive :P]). Everyone's value judgement is different. Some people might be most concerned about cruelty to animals, some might be about status, and some might be about factory worker exploitation. You might consider some of these value judgements more 'worthy' than others, but that's diversity for ya :P

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by InterfaceLeader

If people are dependent on the hand-outs of the wealthy, they never achieve any kind of independence (give a man a fish...). You can NOT change the world through charity.

Most charity and aid is self-sufficency related. Vision correction, agricultural education, clean water piping, the set up of communication infrastructures, medical training, etc.

Not sure why this wouldn't help?

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Love

That said, I’m not going to stop making judgments about what’s “worth it.”
For example, I think our current war is a waste of money and lives.

I agree.

Here's what happens when you apply the "abundance mindset" to the wrong things.

[dustyjackman]

Hi, all. Interesting discussion.

From what I understand, people function from, or at, various differing levels along their personal evolution and the level of achievement is one of them.

Currently, quite possibly the easiest way of measuring where our achievement levels are is with money, and the stuff money can buy. Hence, a blog posting like the one Steve posted yesterday.

Now, here's the tricky part. If you are not yet at the evolutionary level of achievement you simply will not understand what Steve is portraying. No matter how it's laid out in front of you, you just won't get it.

Conversely, if you have moved through and transcended from the level of achievement you might look back with experienced eyes and understanding at that previous levels need to share it's success with the world. However, as is most often the case, the next level looks back at it's previous evolutionary level with total disdain and loathing. Which you might be able to notice in some of the replies to the blog.

Of course, if you're currently experiencing the achievement level you will resonate totally with what Steve has to say and will be all to keen to share your achievements and success with whoever in the world you think might listen.

So what happens next? Well, a couple of things, either the person currently well and truly entrenched at achievement becomes so attached to it all and simply stays there. They do not evolve any further. You might know some people just like that.
Or, they will evolve and transcend that level to the next. Pretty simple really.

So, at the end of the day, having and spending money however and wherever you feel and at whatever amounts you wish, is neither right nor wrong.
Some folks try to sugar coat their spending and so called extravagances as doing a service to themselves and the world at large. That somehow their spending and desiring gazillions of dollars is the way to go. It is neither right nor wrong.
On the other hand, there are plenty of people out there living frugal, watching the bucks carefully, and doing their bit to show the world that money is the root of all evil. Some even dream that there will be a special place in heaven for them because they were not the greedy, all consuming pigs of the world. They too, are neither right nor wrong.

The thing to remember, having money and wealth is not a personality trait, it is just merely a fact.

Thanks for your time.
This was my first ever post.

Dustyjackman.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by love

I think, according to that article, that means that I am in a scarcity mindset. There is some value to money spent on the war, some improvement to the military, etc. and I am not seeing it. Because I refuse to see it and think the money is wasted and therefore finite, I’m in a scarcity mindset.
Ok.

I think there is a big difference between freely spending your money on what you wish, and the government spending money. When the government spends money on war, building, etc it is money that was forcibly taken from you and other people through taxes. Thus, the government isn't spending its own money, but spending your money. So my guess is that it's ok to feel that they are misspending it without meaning you're in a scarcity mindset. After all, I'm guessing that if someone forced Steve to pay $10,000 to put some Joe smoe in a hotel night for one evening, he'll probably feel it was a waste of money too.

[Angela]

Dan, I live in a $1350/month apartment on the beach, but I COULD live in one of the new $550 250sq ft apts that have opened up in downtown l.a. In fact, it might be a fun adventure.

But I strongly prefer to live at the beach, and use the location, the ocean, the air and the people to enhance my life. Is your view that the only moral thing to do is move downtown and donate the resulting $800 savings to charity?

Also, do you feel that I should stop buying the French blueberry preserves, switch to Smuckers, and donate the $1.50 per month to feed a child in Africa? If you believe I should do that, do you think I'm morally required to go through ALL of my refrigerator and other living/spending habits, and minimize them so as to donate whatever I can save to charity?

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Angela

Dan, how far do you take this?

Your call.

I'd say whatever lifestyle maximizes your income is probably best.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Angela

Dan, I live in a $1350/month apartment on the beach, but I COULD live in one of the new $550 250sq ft apts that have opened up in downtown l.a. In fact, it might be a fun adventure.

I didn't know you lived in LA, I'm actually visiting San Luis Obispo this weekend. I'll be spending $50 in gas to get there, paying a couple hundred for a hotel and a hundred or so for food.

All told, it'll be about a $350 trip. That's seven eye surgeries. Do you think its worth it? I have my doubts.

But that's the reality of things, no matter how anyone wants to twist or deny it. That's the world we live in today. Seven people I've never met won't get ocular implant surgeries and will continue to be blind because I'm going to go get laid on a beach this weekend.

I also get readings from Erin occasionally. Each one of those is four eye sugeries. Is that worth it? Got me..

I don't have the answers. I think its ridiculous that wealth is distributed how it is, and that we are even faced with choices like these. The only thing that does halfway make sense to me to draw up a budget based on a predetermined "comfortable standard of living" and then stick to it, giving away the excess.

Maybe theres just too many people on Earth and we're supersaturated. In 1800 the world population was less than 1 billion, in 1900 it was 1.6 billion, in 1950 2.5 billion and then in 2000 its 6 billion?? That's a pretty drastic change. I dunno, I guess we'll just have to adjust.

[openeyes]

I’m generally okay with spending more money on something than most people so long as it helps in the fulfillment of one’s goals. I simply try to make sure the goals I’m going for are beneficial and that I’m being efficient in the process. Yesterday I spent about $200 for a new bicycle wheel, which is more than most people spend on their whole bike. I also buy bikes for kids, about $40 each at this charity Elves and More which is about what I spent on my last bicycle seat, and am considering volunteering at a local non profit bike shop which is trying to get more bikes out into the community. My justification (if I actually needed to justify it) for what I spend on my own bike is that it enables me to largely replace driving my car with riding my bicycle. My old wheel kept breaking spokes from the extra weight of carrying groceries and school books. Now that won’t be a problem and I needn’t fall back on driving as much. All of this relates to my goal of making bicycles more viable as a means of transport.

I grew up in a family of sports car builders and racers, so the idea of a $100,000 car isn’t so foreign to me. One of my friends spent a while racing a car that cost $250,000. Each engine cost 32 grand, and each race cost 10 grand just to enter into it. The costs were covered by another friend with a net worth of around $200 million, and the goal was to find sponsors to eventually start picking up the tab and make it profitable. As a profession it wasn’t so bad, but when he raced just for fun he used a much cheaper car, though if I were to race I’d prefer something human powered.

Though sports cars should be in my blood by now, I’m inclined to limit my driving most of the time at this point, in part due to increased social consciousness and thoughts on cost effectiveness. I have about as much fun (maybe more, and I can do it more frequently) pushing the limits of my bicycle as I did with a sports car in the past, and there’s much less environmental/financial cost in doing so. Were I to spend more than 30 grand on a sports car now, I’d consider the Tesla Roadster, as it is lithium ion powered, and their sales are helping to fund the development of cheaper electric vehicles.

[Angela]

It sounds like you have the outrage mentality around other people doing exactly what you're doing -- spending more than is absolutely necessary in order to satisfy and fulfill your own desires, when you feel that money would be better spent satisfying and fulfilling the basic absolutely necessities in other people's lives. Right?

So, since you can't really change the way other people spend their money, is this conversation going to effect your own attitudes towards abundance or your spending habits? Are you going to Be the Change You Want to See in some way?

Do you have some judgements about yourself around money, abundance, or generosity that you'll examine as a result of the questions you've asked here?

p.s. have fun in SLO.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Angela

It sounds like you have the outrage mentality around other people doing exactly what you're doing

Not exactly. Taking a weekend trip isn't quite the same as spending thousands or tens of thousands frivolously.

By the way, Steve was never advocating spending money excessively either, he was saying spend a lot if it ends up contributing more.

So, you have no problem with someone spending $1,500 on a hotel room? Or $100,000 on a car?

Originally Posted by Angela

Since you can't really change the way other people spend their money, is this conversation going to effect your own attitudes towards abundance or your spending habits?

Like I've said, I'll probably continue to live on a fixed amount and give away the excess. I'm still under budget.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Not exactly. Taking a weekend trip isn't quite the same as spending thousands or tens of thousands frivolously.

It isn't? It sounds like exactly the same thing to me -- spending what you believe you can afford on something you want that is not absolutely necessary.

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

So, you have no problem with someone spending $1,500 on a hotel room? Or $100,000 on a car?

Right. I grant* each person the freedom to spend their money, and live their lives, exactly as they choose. I wouldn't choose to spend that much on those particular items. I would be pleased to see people (including myself) making choices with their money that would make a difference for others, and would lead to burgeoning self-awareness. However, I can't and won't make that choice for anyone but myself. And I don't see any advantage to getting upset about other people's choices, or making them wrong. That wouldn't make a difference for others or lead me to burgeoning self-awareness!

Interestingly, my boss bought a $95,000 BMW M-5 this year, and I was baffled. Why would you spend so much money on a car? I asked. Then he took me for a ride in it, and I had a little more appreciation for why it would cost so much. Cars are one area where I economize to the point of OCD so it's hard for me to imagine spending so much, but I could see the glee on his face and how much fun he was having enjoying all the features.

Although not all fun costs money, fun is often worth spending your money on. Have fun at the beach!


*"grant" is kind of a joke, based on my leonine empress nature. "accept" is probably a better word for what I mean.

[Dan.Linehan]

Heh heh. I feel like such blog fodder.

[Max0r]

I'm surprised nobody's speaking up for the wretched conditions of many the affluent. Many of them are the most miserable people on this planet... and nobody thinks of helping them!

[InterfaceLeader]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Most charity and aid is self-sufficency related. Vision correction, agricultural education, clean water piping, the set up of communication infrastructures, medical training, etc.

Not sure why this wouldn't help?

Because it doesn't focus on the cause of poverty.

I'm not saying it doesn't help, in the sense that it doesn't make a difference to the person who can then see, or to the people who then have clean water. (I donate very regularly to various charities myself for this reason).

But because of the way capitalism functions, if you pull one group of people out of poverty, another one gets created. The type of exploitation might change, but there will still be one.

Feudalism worked by creating a worker class that lived (and died) for a tenth of what they produced, whilst land owners did nothing and lived in (relative) luxury. In Edwardian/Victorian times, we had industry that destroyed people's health, and regularly starved them to death when 'work was short'. As Western countried became more civilised, they began exploiting other countries: we had the slave trade. When slavery was abolished through the actions of some very brave people, the wealthy began to import goods made in countries were the laws were lax enough that they could get away with exactly what they did before.

Charity treats the symptoms, it does not treat the cause.

Until you can restructure society - by which I mean, make it illegal for someone to be paid less than a living wage, ensure that the people who produce basic life needs (food, health care, clean water) are rewarded, and people who do nothing but 'make executive decisions' are penalised for living off the work of others, you cannot get rid of poverty.

In the USA, our largest, most powerful country, 13% of the people live below the poverty line. (Info) There is absolutely no need for them to do so, there is - as people keep saying - MORE than enough to go around.

The reason why is because we keep at all times a large amount of useful, but undervalued positions. We all use the services of waiters, shop assistants, fast food servers, factory produced mass consumer items, but we pay over-the odds for the marketing, advertising, packaging, transport and company CEO bonuses, and completely undervalue the people who actually make the fundamental item. This is true on a local scale, and on a global scale.

So no, charity does not help. It is like applying salve to a burn, when you're still on fire.

(Apologies if this post is a bit incoherant, I'm running on no sleep at the moment!)

[kenckar]

I think the folks who are dwelling on the materialistic aspects of Steve's post are missing the point. It is possible to read it as justification for conspicuous consumption, however, as I read it, Steve is neutral on the what of the spending, but focusing on the why.

We could all make the argument that spending less and giving the money to charity is good. Let's go past that though.

The article is about the mentality of success. If Donald Trump thinks like a depression baby and spends an hour to save five dollars on shoes, he didn't save five dollars, he actually lost thousands of dollars.

I do try to save money, and I do give a fair amount back to charity and the community. But I also spend what I need to keep me in a good place to continue to contribute. Going beyond that would be wasteful. It is each of our responsibility to do what it takes to bring our productivity to where we want it.

Cheers,
Tony

[inter351]

First, thanks to Steve and his team for the real advice and, above all, motivation that I personally received from his work; as with so many other respected authors since Dale Carnegie.

Second, IMHO; I liked very much the "abundance mindset" in this and other posts.

Just maybe a humble suggestion: care for the examples.

Maybe most of the readers earn more now than they did several years ago. I personally agree and understand that now we don't care for a dime or a penny in a price, thankfully I don't need to see the price column first when asking in a restaurant, just look for what I like (excluding obvious most expensive ones, at least for daily meals) without being afraid of not having enough money to buy my meal.

What I don't think is that the fact that I am producing and/or helping others has to make me spend.

If someone earns $2,000 a month an can afford a $200 hotel room, that's 10%. So for someone to afford a $10,000 room with the same "coolness" or "tranquility" or ease; he has to earn $ 100,000 a month (simplifying the example, of course, since maybe it is not linear).

Back to the example: maybe it would be clearer to post a cheap room and a comfortable practical one, in every level.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by inter351

Back to the example: maybe it would be clearer to post a cheap room and a comfortable practical one, in every level.

I think that Steve made a wise choice by using that $10k room because I have never seen a blog stir such a storm... even the most fantastic idea under the sun is worthless if is not used and no one hears about it...

Sometimes you must be outrageous to get your ideas and opinions across... and that blog on the "scarcity mentality" certainly did resonate...

.

[inter351]

Why not to use a $ 1 million room instead?

Maybe the storm was precisely because it didn't made its point by diverting other way far from the important idea of the correct mindset.

---

I liked the "Life is a gift ..." quote very much. Thanks.-

[krackato]

What about the ENVIRONMENT Steve? Huh? I don't care how much of an "abundance" mindset you have, that doesn't change the fact that we're in one of the largest extinction periods on the planet earth ever.

What does that mean? No more lions, and tigers, and bears, and seals, and elephants, and cheetahs, and whales and sharks and fish and etc. etc.

However, you NEVER talk about the environment or global warming.

Let's just say astral projection is real. Who cares? Really? What are the spirits going to do when the planet gets so hot that the polar ice caps melt, NYC is submerged in water, hurricanes go wild, and every other species other than man has been eliminated because our insatiable need for land and resources? And if we keep giving people this "abundance mentality" it's going to be "There's enough room for my 5 bedroom house with awesome office" straight through the rain forest thereby eliminating 100's and thousands of species and destroying massive amount of biodiversity.

Look, I'll kill my rant. But I'll leave with this.

WHAT ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT STEVE?

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by krackato

However, you NEVER talk about the environment or global warming.

You should take the time to look at the title of this forum... it says, "Personal Development for Smart People..."

Now, if you want to do a job... and do it well... you have to focus on the topic on hand... and this forum, is about PD... not AID, not cancer cure, not about fiscal reforms... not about health coverage for the elderly... not about global warming... but about PD... capice...

.

[Savage]

I may address environmental issues down the road. What I've learned so far is that the single best thing anyone can do to help the environment is to go veg and stop eating animal products. That single commitment will conserve more water, energy, land, and resources (and reduce pollution) than anything else you could possibly do at the personal level. But that's a topic for a whole separate discussion.

[krackato]

Respect....

[Shamou]

On the mindset of abundance…

A few years ago I was with a group of hundreds of professionals who would meet for a week once every two months in one of the large cities in the US to motivate each others…

Of course we had the best motivator speakers as guess… so that we could get some inspiration and motivation from them… But, the most inspiration that we would get was from the interaction among each others…

Rubbing elbow with successful people is the best source of motivation there is… we could hear, first hand, where these successful guys and gals were in life…

Some would come to the seminars in their own plane… others would charter a plane to bring some neophytes to the seminar… one guy brought twenty seven suits to wear during a one week stay… (returning to Canada, the custom people never believed that he had brought all those suits with him and he had to pay custom taxes on most of them)…

Did we get motivated and inspired…??? You bet your butt… my income increased almost tenfold in less than six months… and along with that increased income was the ultimate benefit of actually growing ourselves…

“A mind stretched by a new belief will never resume its original shape…”

And, getting it that the “outrage mentality” is probably your own worst enemy in one of the best new and empowering belief there it…

.

[InterfaceLeader]

Shamou -

I think seeing people in private planes and bringing twenty seven suits with them (why? Seriously o.o) wouldn't motivate me to do jack. A nice house, yes, I can see that. Quality clothes, yes, I can see that. But nobody needs twenty seven suits for a week - if we're talking about 'time = money', then spending the amount of time changing from one suit to another to make that worthwhile (not to mention time spent on choosing which ones to bring, packing them, adding matching shoes...) is stupid!

I want to be rich, so that I can eat incredibly well, and travel to very exotic locations. I want to be able not to work an office job, and I do want to be able to walk across America or live in China for six months. In short, I want the time to be able to do the things I've always wanted to do.

There is a massive difference between having a wonderful experience, and just owning lots of stuff.

If you really dig cars, and understand them, and love them, then yeah, maybe owning six cars is good for you. But for the average person who doesn't even know how to drive stick it's just an empty status symbol. Equally it annoys me that people fly to exotic locales just to sit on the tourist beach filled with westerners, and eat 'normal' food in their chain hotel. It's a status symbol, so they can say 'Oh, I went to Australia/Bahamas/Europe/China last month', and completely undermines the reasons for travelling.

Rampant materialism is not the road to happiness. I'm not saying self-sacrifice is, but if you have money, you could at least spend it on things personally important to you, rather than the same commercial bullcrap everyone buys.


Up with vegetarianism Food miles and huge herds of grazing anaimals are indeed one of the worst ways to damage the enviroment.

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by InterfaceLeader

I do want to be able to walk across America or live in China for six months.

Either of which could be done for well under ten grand, particularly if you avoid acting like a regular tourist. One doesn't need to be rich in the millionaire sense to eat well and know the world (although there's nothing wrong with being a millionaire). I think you have a good idea of abundance.

As for a nice house, personally I'd enjoy a small home that I'd built myself over a McMansion with a mortgage. Not just because of the money involved but because I'd have put more of myself into one that I'd made.

[Love]

Originally Posted by Shamou

You should take the time to look at the title of this forum... it says, "Personal Development for Smart People..."



.

You know, for all Tony Robbins says about changing your mentality and getting what you want, I don't think I've ever read anything of his that mentioned being nice or giving common decency.

Rolling your eyes here at someone with an opinion? My goodness.

Personal development does not happen in a vacuum. Development is about what you do and the choices you make. You make choices in a world where there is AIDS, global warming, financial woes and more.