Quality and Contribution (Blog)

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Why stop at $35K? Why not earn $350K and give 90% of it away then? Think of how much more you could contribute, both in the earning and the giving.

Yep, exactly my point.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Yep, exactly my point.

My point being that people who hold this mindset won't act on it because the mindset is inherently flawed. Thinking that "other people" should behave this way merely ensures that you won't. It's just a limiting belief, a trap that keeps people living far below their potential.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Nah.

On 35k I:

• Rent this house in Marin.
• Drive a '02 Acura TL type-s that I bought for $11.5k
• Usually walk to work
• Camp on the weekend in redwoods or on the beach.
• See a rock show about once a month. Wilco, Arcade Fire, etc.
• Maintain registrations for about 400 web domains.
• Eat out frequently.
• Have a huge wardrobe, gym membership, great food, etc.

This month I'm going hang gliding, rock climbing, and volunteering with Seva.

No scarcity here. It just doesn't cost more than 35k/year or so to live really, really, well, and I make more than that.

And how is paying $50 to restore someone's eyesight zero results?

I currently live on less then half of what you currently live on. I don't hang glide, rock climb, I've never seen a rock show, I maintain registration on only 3 web domains, I only eat at cheap places, I have a small wardrobe, I live in a place much smaller then yours - and an apartment at that, and I have a 13 year old small car.

If I was to adopt the point of view you have toward Steve, then I'd have to say you're spending way too much and wasting too much money on these unnecessary luxuries. I'd say you should get rid of all the luxury stuff you're doing and donate at least $17K of that $35K to charities and only live on $18K. All those hungry people need it more then you need your rock shows, big wardrobe, new car, nice house, etc. Alternatively, with that $17K you wouldn't be spending on your luxury items, you could restore 340 person's eyesight at the $50 per person figure you quoted.

Of course, since I don't agree with your viewpoint, I won't say that. Instead, I'll say congratulation on making yourself valuable enough to the world and to yourself that you're able to spend much more money on making your life more comfortable and more enjoyable then I currently can do in my own life. I look forward to one day being at your level financially, and eventually later, at Steve's level. In fact, that in of itself is a good reason for why I should increase my contribution to the world so I can eventually live a lifestyle like yours.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

My point being that people who hold this mindset won't act on it because the mindset is inherently flawed. Thinking that "other people" should behave this way merely ensures that you won't. It's just a limiting belief, a trap that keeps people living far below their potential.

You could be right? It seems to be working fine so far..

I don't see the trap in living on a certain amount and giving away the excess.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by seeker5

Alternatively, with that $17K you wouldn't be spending on your luxury items, you could restore 340 person's eyesight at the $50 per person figure you quoted.

I agree. I'm taking some steps to cut back my budget and raise my income.

[Nicholls]

Aside from the current topic of conversation I'd like to say I thought this was a great post by Steve and really put the whole concept of money in perspective, as well as overspending/underspending. Much appreciated.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

I don't see the trap in living on a certain amount and giving away the excess.

The trap is simply that that particular mindset is highly unlikely to lead to the creation/contribution of much excess value. It may seem like a reasonable mindset, but it's more like a mental quagmire where tons of intelligent people get stuck. I've been there myself. That mindset can yield a comfortable and complacent standard of living, but it pretty much slows everything to a crawl on the value generation side.

There's nothing wrong with living on $35K a year -- Erin and I lived on less than that as a couple at various times. All I'm saying is that if we are to grow in our ability to contribute, we must question the mindset that resonates with our current level of income/contribution and consider what mindset(s) would permit us to contribute much more than we're doing now... without necessarily needing to work any harder or longer.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

That mindset can yield a comfortable and complacent standard of living, but it pretty much slows everything to a crawl on the value generation side.

I'm the opposite for some reason.

If I was just working for my own sake (dvd collection) I'd be complacent.

Knowing I can put in a couple extra hours and restore someone's eyesight a few times a week, and get promoted faster? Priceless...

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

If I was just working for my own sake (dvd collection) I'd be complacent.

Who cares about DVDs? The idea is to use money to invest in those things that help you increase your ability to contribute, not to sit around watching movies.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Who cares about DVDs? The idea is to use money to invest in those things that help you increase your ability to contribute, not to sit around watching movies.

Exactly. Personally, I don't own hardly any DVDs (a couple seasons of Six Feet Under) nor do I own a TV.

But how does a $10k hotel room or a $50k car increase anyone's ability to contribute? That's what I don't understand. Are you saying as some sort of reward?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

But how does a $10k hotel room or a $50k car increase anyone's ability to contribute? That's what I don't understand. Are you saying as some sort of reward?

How does your having a $700 juicer increase your ability to contribute? Isn't it rather arrogant to consider than your own valuing of your extraordinarily expensive machine is somehow more worthy than whatever value the luxury traveler or luxury automobile owner assigns to her purchases?

[blackwater]

Our collective responsibility towards the weakest members of humanity should not be imposed, be that politically (socialism) or morally (the outrage script).

It's absurd to draw a line in the sand beyond which you "really should" be giving your money away for free. It's not the numbers but the intention that makes the difference.

As an example, you'll see a lot of people condemning foie gras (there goes the outrage script again) yet they still eat plain chicken (which is just as bad in terms of mistreatment). It's easy to scoff at a 10,000$ hotel room or similar luxury when you know you are never going to enjoy it yourself anyway.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Angela

How does your having a $700 juicer increase your ability to contribute?

1. It doesn't depreciate in value; I could always sell it again for the same price.
2. I'm using to contribute to a healthier diet for myself and my roomates.
3. I'll be using it in the future to make juice in a vegan restaurant.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by blackwater

As an example, you'll see a lot of people condemning foie gras (there goes the outrage script again) yet they still eat plain chiken (which is just as bad in terms of mistreatment).

Good example. If they both cause suffering why would you eat either?

//Still outraged by the mistreatment of animals.

[UHF]

The law of diminishing returns isn't really mentioned.

$30 shoes will be rubbish (plastic and poor quality).
$100 shoes will be much better and will last longer.
$200 shoes will be better still and have some style.
$500 shoes will buy you designer style.
$1000 shoes will buy you expensive designer style and bespoke fitting.
$2000 shoes - what are you paying for now exactly?

I agree with paying more for quality. But after a certain point, you have to question exactly how the price was arrived at and for what extra. Donald Trump has to buy $2000 shoes as he can't go into a normal shoe shop any longer.

[Angela]

Yes, you've got your reasons for valuing your expensive juicer, and feeling that those reasons increase your ability to contribute. But why do you suppose that your reasons are more worthy than another person's value of a different expensive machine or experience, or their ability to help her contribute?

You might have some stock answers like, it's all about status and ego, but might not a person who has to squeeze his oranges by hand say the same thing about you and your toy? You might disagree, and the person on a $25,000 vacation might disagree, too. In fact, the person who handsqueezes his orange juice might be accused of the same thing by someone who can't afford an orange! Should he forego his orange juice and send the money he might have spent to the orangeless man?

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Angela

Yes, you've got your reasons for valuing your expensive juicer, and feeling that those reasons increase your ability to contribute.

I'd be all about the the expensive hotel / car if they helped contribute anything positive. I just don't see how they do.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by UHF

$30 shoes will be rubbish (plastic and poor quality).
$100 shoes will be much better and will last longer.

I've definitely had several pairs of $5 - $20 shoes and sandals last for over five years and still look and wear great.

[blackwater]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Good example. If they both cause suffering why would you eat either?

The point is that you could extend that reasoning across the line. All of us overspend on something. The itention is the same wheater it's the 10,000$ hotel room or that 500$ you spent to go from a 21" to a 24" computer monitor.

The intention makes the difference. Not the numbers.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by blackwater

The intention makes the difference. Not the numbers.

I don't understand, what intention are you talking about?

Are you saying that spending $15,000 on a new leather couch and loveseat set is the same as spending $15,000 on a mobile eye camp that restores vision to 300 people and provides exams for 1,500? Seems pretty different to me.

[Shamou]

I knew that Steve’s blog would be polarizing… still, it is a great blog… the “have-not-and-never-will-have” will not change their minds… but as my mentor, Dr Jim Parker, used to say, “Do not overlook the positive many for the negative few…”

So, in that sense… that blog is very good since it will reinforce and empower those of us who want to be more, do more, have more and contribute more… and give the others something else to complain about…

.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

I'd be all about the the expensive hotel / car if they helped contribute anything positive. I just don't see how they do.

But can't you see? Many people would say the same thing about the things you spend your money on. There are millions of people who would look at your $700 machine and wonder how in the world that would contribute anything positive. You know it does, and the person who spends his money on something you can't understand knows the same thing about what he's purchasing. Just because you can't understand it doesn't mean there's no value or positive contribution, any more than the same would be true of someone who thinks you're a wanker for not squeezing your own juice.

You've just got a point of view, like the rest of us!

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Angela

Just because you can't understand it doesn't mean there's no value or positive contribution, any more than the same would be true of someone who thinks you're a wanker for not squeezing your own juice.

We just keep ducking the same question.

How does spending $80,000 extra on a car accomplish anything positive?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

We just keep ducking the same question.

How does spending $80,000 extra on a car accomplish anything positive?

I don't know, because I don't happen to hold that as a value, but someone does. And that is the person who would surely be able to tell you what the benefit is. Similarly, I don't hold a $700 juicer as a value, so I wouldn't be able to explain to anyone why that why that would be particularly beneficial. I could speculate about both (well, now I could tell them what YOU find beneficial, but that would only be reportage.)

So that question that we're ducking is simply you seeing what you value, but failing to see what and why others value other things. Again, your failure to understand the value in others' eyes doesn't mean there is no value, any more than someone's failure to find value in your juicer means there is no value. Value is in the heart of the consumer.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

How does spending $80,000 extra on a car accomplish anything positive?

That $80k car is indicative of a lifestyle… and a life style that is associated with a sense of self-worth… and with self-worth, as Stephen Covey (The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People) points out, come the level of interdependence…

The two previous levels are, dependence, (where one cannot satisfy his basic needs) independence, (where one is self-sufficient) and finally interdependence where one works and contributes with other in order to achieve what one person alone could not do… and this is where great achievements, breakthroughs and huge realizations come through…

Would you not agree that people who drive $80K cars are predominant in the field of leaders, entrepreneurs, benefactors, employers and leaders of this world…???

You might not need the “trappings” to be in that elite group… but, why would members of that group be motivated to work in order to be there if they were treated like everyone else…???

That may sound shallow… but it is a fact of life… we can reject it… and stay on the sideline… or accept it and be in tune with today’s world…

.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

By all means, its super important to do what you have to to meet your goals. I just don't see what goals anyone could be trying to meet by buying a crazy expensive car or renting a luxery suite.

I once purchased a new motor home for almost $200,000.00. After purchasing the vehicle I realized there were a lot of "expectations" which played a role in my desire to make this purchase.

Some of my beliefs about what benefit I would receive were so unrealistic it is hard to explain them to someone who has never had similar thoughts. I had a great deal of excitement as I contemplated the purchase. I enjoyed the process of deal making a lot.

After becoming the owner of the motor home I suppose I should say proud owner, as I seemed to make a point in showing everyone who could be convinced to look at it to have a tour of my new possession. I was enthralled with it and myself for owning it. With time the high level of excitement and self identification with my possession faded.

As I reflect on the motor home adventure I believe it was a positive event in my life. The motor home represented freedom for me. I was in a marriage and we caused a great deal of pain in each others life. It was in my personal script to believe marriage is forever.

The motor home was something which gave me the freedom to travel and be absent from the day to day contact of a painful situation. The absences let my then wife and I understand we were happier when we were not living together.

I suppose the point of this post is that it was not clear to me why I was buying the vehicle but as I think about the whole thing now I believe there was a reason beyond the ego gratification of "look at me and what I own." I learned that things will not help me feel better in and of themselves. There was a deeper lesson about being able to make choices and being worthy of happiness which in a way the ownership facilitated.

I do not regret the experience or castigate myself for the extravagance. There is a purpose to everything even when I do not understand the why or the what.

The outrage script that Steve speaks about in his blog, when applied to this and similar things would for me be a diversion and remove energy from my true purpose of learning from events in my life and becoming the person I am destined to become. The outrage script is counterproductive to me in relation to most everything which comes my way in life.

I still own the "thing" but it is just a tool for comfortable travel and living in much the same way my VW bug was those many years ago. It is not me and I am not it.

[AdamR]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

The trap is simply that that particular mindset is highly unlikely to lead to the creation/contribution of much excess value. It may seem like a reasonable mindset, but it's more like a mental quagmire where tons of intelligent people get stuck. I've been there myself. That mindset can yield a comfortable and complacent standard of living, but it pretty much slows everything to a crawl on the value generation side.

I have to completely disagree there.

Warren Buffett, the 2nd richest person in the world, still lives in the a modest house he bought on the order of 50+ years ago. He's known for having a very frugal lifestyle. In fact, the only item he has ever splurged on is a private plane to travel to all his businesses faster. He's giving away nearly all of his money. He's also been known to stop and pick up pennies off the ground...

On the lower end of the spectrum, how about Ralph Nader? He's worth several millions, but he hasn't owned a car for over 50 years. He also lives in a very modest home, and buys his class at Army surplus stores and thrift stores.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by AdamR

I have to completely disagree there.

Warren Buffett, the 2nd richest person in the world,
On the lower end of the spectrum,

...how about Ralph Nader? He's worth several millions,

A principle does not have to apply to every situation in order to be valid… presenting two situations where the principle does not apply proves nothing…

Not that is proves anything… but what about these guys…

1. William H Gates III
2. Karl & Theo Albrecht
3. Paul G Allen
4. Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Alsaud
5. Lawrence J Ellison
6. Alice L Walton
7. Helen R Walton
8. Jim C Walton
9. John T Walton

.

[AdamR]

Originally Posted by Shamou

A principle does not have to apply to every situation in order to be valid… presenting two situations where the principle does not apply proves nothing…

Not that is proves anything… but what about these guys…

.

Of course, that's true. But I don't think Steve has proven anything either (not that he's necessarily trying to), and it's useful to take into consideration such a glaring contradiction to his view, especially when it's someone who's richer than practically 100% of the world.

[sunfever]

My first here folks. Hi!

For Dan and others who don't particularly care for Steve's metaphor for the $10K hotel room you have to remember that it is a metaphor. The moral question of whether the room is "right" or "wrong" from a value perspective is totally irrelevant. What Steve is trying to illustrate that value is primarily perception. Yes, it's pathetic that we tend to peg our value assertions to a dollar value but that's how it is.

In cost terms, the $10K hotel room may only cost the hotel owners $1K. The $9K premium is nothing but value perception. There is a market for it. People are willing to believe that this is 'fair market' for a 'quality product'. When sufficient number of people believe and act on the belief that the fair market value for a richly appointed, ultra comfortable room is say $1.2K, the prices will drop to those levels. To carry that on even further - when sufficient number of people believe that the cost of a richly appointed, ultra comfortable room is - FREE, then the "price" will "rise" to that level.

Note the use of the terms "price" and "rise". If you really sit down and think about it, can you really put a monetary value to a really high quality room (product)? Once you invest sufficient attention and care (and love!) into your room design and the supporting service - I don't think there will be any monetary value that can be justify its true price. You are then forced to give it away for free. Which in turn will create a positive feedback cycle (I hate that phrase! over used, abused, etc...) that will allow you to experience your highest quality and then make a similar contribution - for free.

This is sometime in the future BTW. A pipe dream? I don't think so. I strongly believe that we as a race will eventually reach a level of value maturity where monetary exchange becomes irrelevant. Not fuddy-duddy socialism or capitalism. Both those ideologies are dead in the water. It doesn't recognize how human beings operate. Capitalism trumpets the supremacy of the self, socialism the supremacy of altruism. Both recognize certain aspects of the deepest inner desires of human beings not all.

I am saying this badly I know. Metaphors have a way of leaving a big area of butt exposed. But I hope you get the message. Money is a arbitrary definition of value, even if economists may say otherwise. True value has nothing to do with money. And that's name of the game here - garnering value to yourself and returning that to the universe and getting more in return and returning more...positive feedback cycle (yuck!)