Are Anthony Robbins' methods bases on fear?

[Toine]

Not sure where to post this question, so I'll do it here...

Anthony Robbins says our main drives are joy and pain. He has found that avoiding pain is a stronger emotion than than trying to get joy. Perhaps I am making links that aren't there, but I was wondering if his methods are based on fear. A more general question that could be drawn from this is: Is the path of fear easier than the path of love, or does the path of fear at least lead to 'results' more quickly?

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Toine

Not sure where to post this question, so I'll do it here...

Anthony Robbins says our main drives are joy and pain. He has found that avoiding pain is a stronger emotion than than trying to get joy. Perhaps I am making links that aren't there, but I was wondering if his methods are based on fear. A more general question that could be drawn from this is: Is the path of fear easier than the path of love, or does the path of fear at least lead to 'results' more quickly?

All the gurus say the same thing, be happy, be positive, be focused and it will come and it could come quickly. It's all just the same brainwashing rubbish to sell cd's and over priced seminar tickets.

Fear, love, thought and emotion are all creations and creations don't create anything. Creations are for enjoyment and to be observed, but there is no creative power there. If someone achieves something it's because they decided it to be so, they chose it to be so, everything else is just built/created to reflect the manifestation to feel growth, to label a process that is an illusion, the process is not creative.

If thought and emotion was the creative force, then all thought and all emotion would create, but it doesn't, they are creations themselves. Choice creates plain and simple. Fear and love are creations to observe. You choose something to be and it is, then you create emotions and thoughts to further interact with the creation.

If you choose to create a something, BAM! It's done, then you create all the thoughts and emotions to go with that creation, to justify it and observe it. There is nothing wrong with fear, love, joy and sorrow, they are creative reactions to conscious choice.

As for Robbins, he's an information seller, he doesn't know anything that can't be found for free on this forum. He may make you feel good, he may make you feel he's a phony, but it will be your choice

[Toine]

Well, that's a good way to end the discussion. Any discussion!

[Shindra]

Now I don't know about Anthony Robbins, but as far as I understand it, both love and fear can be motivated 'away from' or 'towards'. Someone leaning towards service could be motivated by moving away from feelings of sorrow and horror when they see things wrong in the world. Feeling bad for how others have it can lead to a state of determination to change it. Think of commercials for charities showing starving children.
It should be noted that there are psychological studies, newer ones, I've heard, that say people are actually better motivated by pleasure/positive visions. (sorry I don't have any links, but you might google it.) Some people say one thing, some say the other.
What I've found is that there's a better motivator than away/towards. It's expression. This is also congruent with LoA - what you are inside manifests outside. Living your life as an expression of your love for the world, or your sense of self-importance.
Love and fear are equally easy and leads to results equally quickly, it only depends on your skill in using the energies. You can have a talent for one or the other, but one is not inherently better than the other.

The path of fear isn't about being afraid all the time. One of the emotions of fear-polarization is lust, for example, and lust is not about avoiding pain, it's about getting pleasure.

[Savage]

I don't buy into the pain/pleasure model of behavior. Too often it uses circular logic. Pain and pleasure don't just refer to physical reactions or emotions -- instead their definitions are broadened to encapsulate whatever drives your behavior. So you can say anything is pain or pleasure, given enough tweaking.

The more important questions are: Why is something perceived as painful or pleasurable in the first place? What is the role of conscious choice?

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Toine

Not sure where to post this question, so I'll do it here...

Anthony Robbins says our main drives are joy and pain. He has found that avoiding pain is a stronger emotion than than trying to get joy. Perhaps I am making links that aren't there, but I was wondering if his methods are based on fear. A more general question that could be drawn from this is: Is the path of fear easier than the path of love, or does the path of fear at least lead to 'results' more quickly?

This is an exact quote from, "Awaken the Giant Within" by Tony Robbins...

"What is the force that is controlling you even now and will continue to do so for the rest of your life?

PAIN and PLEASURE! Everything you and I do, we do either out of our need to avoid pain or our desire to gain pleasure."

And I agree with Steve when he says,

"Pain and pleasure don't just refer to physical reactions or emotions -- instead their definitions are broadened to encapsulate whatever drives your behavior. So you can say anything is pain or pleasure, given enough tweaking."

Therefore Robbins is correct in stating that,

"Everything you and I do, we do either out of our need to avoid pain or our desire to gain pleasure."

.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Shamou

PAIN and PLEASURE! Everything you and I do, we do either out of our need to avoid pain or our desire to gain pleasure."[/I].

Making an obvious statement like that is neither profound nor a revelation. The real questions are:

1. Will short term pain give me long term pleasure?
2. Will short term pleasure give me long term pain?

and ultimately how do gauge my actions accordingly?

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

Making an obvious statement like that is neither profound nor a revelation. The real questions are:

1. Will short term pain give me long term pleasure?
2. Will short term pleasure give me long term pain?

and ultimately how do gauge my actions accordingly?

I completely agree with you... but, I just wanted to answer the threader's question... not quote the whole book...

.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Shamou

I completely agree with you... but, I just wanted to answer the threader's question... not quote the whole book... .

Sorry, Shamou, I wasn't directing that at you and yes you were answering the question.

It was more directed towards Anthony Robbins and his hook. I'm not a big fan of his (sorry, again). I think he overstates the obvious and as we both agreed before, he has no original thought.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

Sorry, Shamou, I wasn't directing that at you and yes you were answering the question.

It was more directed towards Anthony Robbins and his hook. I'm not a big fan of his (sorry, again). I think he overstates the obvious and as we both agreed before, he has no original thought.

Tell me more about Robbins' hook...

.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Shamou

Tell me more about Robbins' hook... .

The pain/pleasure thing! (yawn)

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

The more important questions are: Why is something perceived as painful or pleasurable in the first place? What is the role of conscious choice?

Exactly. Emotion and thought and required to enhance the physical experience and I know I keep saying this, but they do not create.

The role of conscious choice is to create, that's all it does and it's instant, constant and eternal. All the emotions, all the thoughts are all output to reflect, validate and justify the physical experience.

Steve, you said in your Nature of Reality podcast, that consciousness uses thought to create, that thoughts were the instructions to the program, to the simulation, but if I may be so bold to state that is incorrect and that choice is the creative force and that thoughts, emotions are creations themnselves nand have no creative power.

At best they are validators of choice. I know I'm repeating myself here in the forum, but (too me) it's so vitally important to impress on consciousness where it's true creative power is and how to bypass the things that are unrequired for creation.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

The pain/pleasure thing! (yawn)

I think she really did mean hook, Shamou...not book. Hehehe.

[KH Rising]

Originally Posted by Shamou

"Everything you and I do, we do either out of our need to avoid pain or our desire to gain pleasure."

Originally Posted by ZHereford

Making an obvious statement like that is neither profound nor a revelation. The real questions are:

1. Will short term pain give me long term pleasure?
2. Will short term pleasure give me long term pain?

and ultimately how do gauge my actions accordingly?

Both are very true. I completely believe in the pain/pleasure model. I've seen it in my life every day. Fear is a natural emotion. It was not created to harm us, but to serve us. Once you use it as a weapon in your arsenal, then you'll be a lot better off.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I think she really did mean hook, Shamou...not book. Hehehe.

I know... but how can you miss a chance like that to tease the grand lady of letters...

.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by KH Rising

Both are very true. I completely believe in the pain/pleasure model. I've seen it in my life every day. Fear is a natural emotion. It was not created to harm us, but to serve us. Once you use it as a weapon in your arsenal, then you'll be a lot better off.

You are quite correct KH Rising...

Here are a few more quotes by Robbins on that same subject...

The secret of success is learning how to use pain and pleasure instead of having pain and pleasure use you. If you do that, you’re in control of your life. If youd don’t, life controls you.

But if we fail to direct our own associations to pain and pleasure, we’re living no better than animals or machines, continually reacting to our environment, allowing whatever comes up next to determine the direction and quality of our lives.

Though we’d like to deny it, the fact remains that, what drives our behavior is instinctive reaction to pain and pleasure, not intellectual calculation.

.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I think she really did mean hook, Shamou...not book. Hehehe.

Exactly right Aspiring!

I totally disagree with this statement:

"Though we’d like to deny it, the fact remains that, what drives our behavior is instinctive reaction to pain and pleasure, not intellectual calculation."

Civilized people aren't driven solely by their instincts. Intellectual calculation better drive some of your behavior or you're in big trouble!

[Erock]

Originally Posted by Shamou

You are quite correct KH Rising...

Here are a few more quotes by Robbins on that same subject...

Though we’d like to deny it, the fact remains that, what drives our behavior is instinctive reaction to pain and pleasure, not intellectual calculation.

Exactly. That's why I think a truly successful person, a truly fulfilled person - not this short term pleasure crap - is one who intellectually decides what drives them, what their goals are in life, who they are, what their values are, exc.., and disreguards pain and pleasure in the pursuit of something greater.

If you live a completely reactive life (like most Americans) you will indeed be ruled by pleasure and pain, because those are the short term realities that you are living with, and you can't see beyond them.

If you live a proactive lifestyle, pleasure and pain will not affect you, because you have defined what you are shooting for in the long term, and you can see beyond them.

An example of this is procrastination. A reactive person, who is ruled by pain and pleasure will of course procrastinate a project because they are avoiding short term pain as much as possible, and they associate the project with pain. A proactive person, who has defined their goals, values, principles, has direction and sees beyond pain/pleasure does not procrastinate, because they have given up the short term pain/pleasure model of living and replaced it with a long-term, principle-centered life.

As someone asked above, does short term pain = long term pleasure and visa-versa. I would have to say no. When you have a defined purpose, a mission in life, and know the principles and morals you live under, you don't see hard projects as pain. You almost see through the elusive gains and losses of short term pleasure/pain and both of them lose their effect on you. It's cool and it's really changed the way I live.

Erock

[ZHereford]

@ Erock so I think you're saying that pain and pleasure shouldn't be part of the equation period. Your choices should be made based on solid values and principles - correct?

[Shamou]

I may not have been as clear as I should in explaining the pain/pleasure principle…

Being driven to seek pleasure does not necessarily choosing what is more fun… that would be a simplistic view of the equation…

Let us just take College as an example…. which is more fun… going to school or hanging out with the guys…??? Hanging out with the guys might me more fun… but the idea of getting a diploma will give even more satisfaction… therefore the choice will be College…. (choosing the pleasure option.)

Even the Talibans would choose martyrdom over life because the prospect of being a hero affords more satisfaction (again the pleasure option.)

Hope this is a little clearer…

The option satisfaction/ pleasure will always be chosen… it’s human nature…

.

[torilink]

the problem with pain/pleasure is that they are re-active and based upon physical perception.

If we are talking about them in relation to creation, then it must be stated that they are not part of the equation.

When functioning from an ego-based physical perspective within the illusion, we see pain/pleasure or love/fear in a context of cause and effect where the past is observed (cause), perceptions formed, emotions felt which lead to an effect - but in conscious creation the only thing "real" is this moment there is no cause and effect and what isn't "real" (past) can have no effect.

It is never necessary to be reactive, or that our choice be congruent with what we believe was the "past" reality.

the effect is actually the cause, it is choice in the now, and the ensuing perceptions, feelings, and such that define our reality, nothing else. Like tossing a rock into water and the vibratory ring which goes out, it is the now which sends ripples across what we experience as reality/time/life.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Shamou

The option satisfaction/ pleasure will always be chosen… it’s human nature… .

I think that reducing everything to pain/pleasure is too simplistic and utimately counter-productive because then you have to spend time analyzing what leads to ultimate pain or pleasure. It makes more sense to deal with principles and values.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

I think that reducing everything to pain/pleasure is too simplistic and utimately counter-productive because then you have to spend time analyzing what leads to ultimate pain or pleasure. It makes more sense to deal with principles and values.

Would you mind showing me an instance where ultimately pain was chosen over pleasure... I don't mean at the time that the decision was taken... but as an end product..

Keeping in mind that going against your values can give you more pain than any pleasure that an action could give...

.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Shamou

I know... but how can you miss a chance like that to tease the grand lady of letters...

.

For once I wasn't sure if you were joking or serious. Just thought I'd clarify, but I see there was no need. Carry on...

As for the discussion at hand, I seem to be choosing pain right now for the little bit of pleasure I get out of it. Would someone please explain that to me?

[munish]

Lack of integrity

Even more serious than overhyped promises with no substance is the problem of dishonesty. There are many shades of gray between mild exaggeration and outright lying, and each author falls into a different part of the spectrum. Let me give you a specific example.

Tony Robbins has a reputation for being a mega-marketer. ...It could be said that if there’s value in his materials, then he should do everything in his power to promote them. But I’m not a subscriber to the theory that the end justifies the means, especially when it comes to self-help. Although Tony may find such techniques profitable, I’m just not willing to do business like this, even if it means making less money. Perhaps this will limit the long-term growth potential for my own personal development business, but that’s a decision I’m willing to live with. I think what this experience showed me is that Tony Robbins is decidedly human. While many people either love him or hate him (he tends to polarize people), to me he is a shade of gray, a mixture of the best and worst parts of us.

source-

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...f-help-a-scam/

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Shamou

Would you mind showing me an instance where ultimately pain was chosen over pleasure... I don't mean at the time that the decision was taken... but as an end product..

In the Virginia Tech shootings there were brave people, including a brave teacher, who chose the pain of death and leaving life and his family to protect others. He chose the ultimate sacrifice over personal pleasure. His values guided him over his personal pleasure. You may say that it was a pleasure for him to give up his life for a cause, but I would disagree. Pain/pleasure were not part of the equation. Values and principles were. He put aside personal pleasure in order to act according to his values and principles.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by munish

Tony Robbins has a reputation for being a mega-marketer. ...It could be said that if there’s value in his materials, then he should do everything in his power to promote them.

That sounds like a contradictory statement to me... he is a mega-marketer... and he does not do all he could to promote his material...

.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

As for the discussion at hand, I seem to be choosing pain right now for the little bit of pleasure I get out of it. Would someone please explain that to me?

Where is the pain...???

.

[SamBeaven]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

In the Virginia Tech shootings there were brave people, including a brave teacher, who chose the pain of death and leaving life and his family to protect others. He chose the ultimate sacrifice over personal pleasure. His values guided him over his personal pleasure. You may say that it was a pleasure for him to give up his life for a cause, but I would disagree. Pain/pleasure were not part of the equation. Values and principles were. He put aside personal pleasure in order to act according to his values and principles.

The trouble is, as Steve pointed out above, 'pain' and 'pleasure' as concepts are so abstract that you can't really define them in an objective fashion - what is painful to one person is pleasurable to another. So in this example you could say that the teacher in this case was going down the pain route deliberately, while you could also argue that his death was the ultimate pleasure - to sacrifice oneself in defense of others, giving one's life and death meaning - many cultures consider this kind of death superior to dying of illness or old age.

So it's not so much pain and pleasure that drive us, but rather our perceptions of reality, many of which can be given the convenient labels 'pain' and 'pleasure'.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by SamBeaven

So it's not so much pain and pleasure that drive us, but rather our perceptions of reality, many of which can be given the convenient labels 'pain' and 'pleasure'.

So you're saying there's no point in even discussing pleasure and pain. According to you and SR it's a moot point.

Not everyone subscribes to the SR model of reality so for those who don't, I say values and principles guide behavior more than pain/pleasure.