Are Anthony Robbins' methods bases on fear?

[Mr.Mustache]

Its like the others said above pain/pleasure is to vague and shallow a model. Emotions are more complex than the fear of pain and the desire for pleasure. That model does not necessarily guide you for example a buddhist monk may seek to eliminate desire all together and there are people you do not fear pain. Beliefs (strong ideas about reality) is a much better unit to work with because encompasses emotions and thoughts.

[SamBeaven]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

So you're saying there's no point in even discussing pleasure and pain. According to you and SR it's a moot point.

Not everyone subscribes to the SR model of reality so for those who don't, I say values and principles guide behavior more than pain/pleasure.

I actually don't subscribe to SR either - I do believe in an objective reality, but I also believe that there is a perceptual buffer between that reality and the mind, and this perception of events and circumstances is the main cause of behaviour - you will be pushed away from what you mentally tag as 'pain' and go towards what you mentally tag as 'pleasure'. Although what is pain and what is pleasure is, in my eyes, a moot point, I think the drivers of human behaviour are always worth discussing

Out of curiosity, care to elaborate on your values/principles model?

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by SamBeaven

Out of curiosity, care to elaborate on your values/principles model?

I can't say that I have a model as such (I should work on one), but I do talk about a personal value systems and why you should have one.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by SamBeaven

you will be pushed away from what you mentally tag as 'pain' and go towards what you mentally tag as 'pleasure'.

Right on Sam... you move ahead of the class...

Pain and pleasure are purely subjective term that can only be determined individually...

A soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies will have thought it less painful to uphold the personal value that he places on bravery and heroism than losing his life...

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[Max Power]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

So you're saying there's no point in even discussing pleasure and pain. According to you and SR it's a moot point.

Not everyone subscribes to the SR model of reality so for those who don't, I say values and principles guide behavior more than pain/pleasure.

Emotion and thought are very important in the SR model because they allow the physical creation to appreciate all the experience. There's not much point creating something without creating the ability to enjoy it.

It's the overall understanding of creation that SR aims to explain, not the denial of anything

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Shamou

A soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies will have thought it less painful to uphold the personal value that he places on bravery and heroism than losing his life... .

I doubt that he will be thinking in terms of pleasure and pain when he's dead!
I found that an absurd stretch of the pain/pleasure concept.

[Erock]

Yeah I guess if you really wanted to you could stretch the pain/pleasure model to fit every scenario, but what I was talking about earlier is the difference between the short term pleasure/pain cycle and long term fulfillment (which I guess could be considered a better pleasure?)

For example if you have goals to lose weight, the long term fulfillment of that versus the short term pleasure of eating a cookie.

I think adopting the belief that we are ruled by pain and pleasure is disempowering, although the model could fit.

Erock

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Erock

I think adopting the belief that we are ruled by pain and pleasure is disempowering, although the model could fit. Erock

Erock I agree with you 100%! I don't think the pain/pleasure thing holds up very well. There are more useful parameters for making sound choices.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

I found that an absurd stretch of the pain/pleasure concept.

How else would you explain the choice...???

It might shock you... I can understand that... but, in every decision there are usually two choice... either you do... or you don't... and, if you get down to the rock bottom motivation... you will find that it is always a question of veering toward the side of pleasure...

Now, I think that we are mature enough to know that when we use the word "pleasure" we are not talking about fun... but a state of something being more pleasurable...

The problem with people who are unable to accept this axiom resides in the fact that they believe that people are creature of logic... which is sadly not the case...

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[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Shamou

How else would you explain the choice...???.

One of moral principle, not pleasure or pain.

As I said earlier it's too simplistic to reduce everything to pain or pleasure. Choices in life are more complicated and complex than that.

Erock makes some great points regarding that.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by ZHereford
One of moral principle, not pleasure or pain.

It was a decision of moral principle… that is, the pain of breaking that moral principle was greater than losing life itself…

Erock makes some great points regarding that.

If you are referring to this part of his statement, “Yeah I guess if you really wanted to you could stretch the pain/pleasure model to fit every scenario,”

He is simply repeating with other words what I have just said…

.

[SamBeaven]

Originally Posted by Erock

I think adopting the belief that we are ruled by pain and pleasure is disempowering, although the model could fit.

It's only disempowering if you believe that pain and pleasure are static principles, which is not Robbins' position - we each have a choice what we consider painful and what we consider pleasurable, and we can shift one to the other with a little conditioning, journalling, brainstorming or meditation.

[ZHereford]

Pain and pleasure are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Is there nothing in between? Not everything is painful or pleasureful. Some things are rather neutral.

My main point is that we do not make choices primarily based on pain and pleasure. There are other more relevant guiding principles that are involved in the process. If you have to go through a ten step process to figure out if something is going to cause pain or pleasure, then what's the point in using it as a barometer for anything? If nothing else it's inefficient use of terminology.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by ZHereford
Pain and pleasure are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Is there nothing in between?

Right and left are also at the opposite end of the spectrum… however it is very useful when driving a car or walking down the street…

Not everything is painful or pleasureful. Some things are rather neutral.

That would be "straight ahead" in our analogy...

If you have to go through a ten step process to figure out if something is going to cause pain or pleasure, then what's the point in using it as a barometer for anything?

Do you have to go through a ten step process when driving your car to know if you should turn right or turn left… or simply forge straight ahead…???

Same thing with decision making… it’s on automatic… sometimes the intellect does come into play… but the eventual decision will be made on the perception of pain or pleasure…

If nothing else it's inefficient use of terminology.

So are the terms, right and left… pretty simple words… yet we could not live without them…

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[ZHereford]

I hardly think a simple action such as turning left or right can be compared to the convoluted pain/pleasure concept.

I have an idea Shamou - let's agree to disagree!

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

I have an idea Shamou - let's agree to disagree!

I have no problem with that...

.

[John Wesley]

I'm not really a fan of the emotion based style of gurus like Robbins. I don't have much experience with his programs myself, but the story Steve told about the pressure marketing tactics they used makes me distrustful.

I think taking a mental approach to self improvement is the only way to get lasting results. You need to really understand that a change is the best decision before you can make it permanent.

[ZHereford]

Yes, John I read your article. Very good.

[rwarlick]

or buy one of his products. I respect the man for achieving success in his industry. I do believe he does walk his walk.

[medaille]

So, to me, pleasure and pain are products of the ego (subconscious).

So you can either:

1) react based on you ego in the short term to provide immediate pleasure or avoid immediate pain. (Typical reactionary person)

2) react with a long term plan to provide yourself the better ability to pleasure yourself (your ego). (Tony Robbins plan, as describe here)

3) recreate your ego so that pleasure and pain are remapped so you feel pleasure in a wider variety of situations. (SR, and some Tony Robbins)

Am I reading that correctly?

[ZHereford]

After writing about Epicurus and his philosophy on the avoidance of physical and emotional pain and the seeking of pleasure as being the highest good, I've just finished writing about Seneca.

Seneca, disagreeing with the Epicureans, explained that by making pleasure an ideal it would mean that good resides in the senses.

He and the Stoics felt that good resides in the intellect because of it's ability to judge what is good or bad according to virtue and honor.

These two schools of thought exemplify some of the differences of opinion on this thread i.e. pain/pleasure concept versus the values/moral principles concept as guides for human behavior.

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by Erock

Yeah I guess if you really wanted to you could stretch the pain/pleasure model to fit every scenario, but what I was talking about earlier is the difference between the short term pleasure/pain cycle and long term fulfillment (which I guess could be considered a better pleasure?)

For example if you have goals to lose weight, the long term fulfillment of that versus the short term pleasure of eating a cookie.

I think adopting the belief that we are ruled by pain and pleasure is disempowering, although the model could fit.

Erock

But see, it's choice and belief and conditioning that convince you the cookie is pleasure, or desirable. That is the bane of obesity or too much weight. Some Cultures love to eat grubs and worms, to them they are a delicacy. Some Cultures throw up at the mere thought of it. Same thing, different thoughts and beliefs. The cookie could easily be seen as contributing to poor health, and be considered intensly undesirable.

We have the trait, the sense of discrimination, and the choice to practise it or ignore it. You may take the wisest animal for instance, and know it's instinct is to chase, run or eat. So you can control the animal. If you placed a trap over a hill, you could throw a lure or some food toward it, or scare it, and the instinct driven animal would be none the wiser, and trapped. We have discrimination, the ability to inspect, control the urge to chase, eat, or run, to see the outcome, if we choose to use it. I see pleasure and pain, blended with discrimination as powerful instruments or gauges to direct desire, and in doing so shape creation.

[Tzone]

Originally Posted by Shamou

The option satisfaction/ pleasure will always be chosen… it’s human nature…

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The second most important question for THIS entire conversation is: can I get to a point in my life where everything is pleasurable via my own path?

-If everything is a pleasurable learning experience (including pain) then there is no "pain" nor "pleasure" they become the same thing.

The third most important question for THIS entire conversation is: what is real pleasure, and could it be the acceptance of all things good and bad?

-If everything is accepted then everything is viewed as equal. If everything is equal then everything can be loved equally.

-Therefore to enjoy real pleasure/ love, acceptance (of everything good and bad) is required. To get to that place of acceptance balance is acquired.

-Everything in moderation will ultimately manifest balance and stability.

There is a difference between real pleasure/happiness and superficial pleasure. Real pleasure = acceptance of all things good and bad /"pleasure" and "pain"= balance = love.

The most important question of ALL is: do the things I view as pleasurable come from a place of selfishness or selfish selflessness?

(Selfish selflessness= the betterment of the whole including oneself/ treating others equal to oneself and vice versa/ showing no preference to the needs of anything or anyone)

When this question is answered the truth will be awakened and happiness/ true pleasure will be found.

[Lioness]

A proactive person, who has defined their goals, values, principles, has direction and sees beyond pain/pleasure does not procrastinate, because they have given up the short term pain/pleasure model of living and replaced it with a long-term, principle-centered life.

Oh how I wish it were as easy as you make it sound! We wouldn't need most of this website. My goals, values etc. have not prevented me from procrastinating. It is a habit I'm still trying to overcome. It is not necessarily pleasurable, but it is less painful to stay in my comfort zone than to force myself to do difficult tasks. I definitely believe Robbins is correct. Even our guiding principles and morals, when you break it down, are designed to give us pleasure in the form of pride in our accompllishments, feeling noble, successful, virtuous, productive, etc. And we are less motivated to gain pleasure from achieving our highest goals than we are to avoid the pain of doing the work.

Has anyone had success in associating their desired behaviors with pleasure and their unwanted habits with extreme pain? For me, this hasn't worked.

[FazK]

The pain / pleasure model is a very crude and black / white way of looking at the world. That said it does work but is a very extreme method of getting results

[spirit4711]

@FazK: do you know a better model?

[brendannz]

you could also say, everything we do is to get less negative emotions and more positive emotions, you know? It's a bit obvious and not totally insightful..

That said, I've used Tony Robbins before, and found the exercises very useful and effective. He kind of forces you to make plans and organise and look into yourself, and I've found the alternative to it, is not planning, and being more random..

I think the real question you should ask yourself is, do these products offer a short term emotional high, or a long term solution for achieving real results?

"Pleasure is the only thing to live for, nothing ages like happiness" - Oscar Wilde

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

I don't buy into the pain/pleasure model of behavior. Too often it uses circular logic. Pain and pleasure don't just refer to physical reactions or emotions -- instead their definitions are broadened to encapsulate whatever drives your behavior. So you can say anything is pain or pleasure, given enough tweaking.

The more important questions are: Why is something perceived as painful or pleasurable in the first place? What is the role of conscious choice?

I see the pain/pleasure model as analogous to the darkworking/lightworking concepts. Darkworkers are primarily focused on avoiding pain, and lightworkers are primarily focused on creating pleasure (joy etc).

[lifetimelearner]

I work with addicts and what I see everyday is more complex then just simply
pain vs pleasure -
if the pain vs pleasure model was applied these people would simply stop drinking due to the pain that was being caused to themselves as well as the people that love them but it's not that simple-

the thought patterns these people have to be thoroughly overhauled as well as the biological addiction has to be interrupted


just my opinion

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by lifetimelearner

if the pain vs pleasure model was applied these people would simply stop drinking due to the pain that was being caused to themselves as well as the people that love them but it's not that simple-

the thought patterns these people have to be thoroughly overhauled as well as the biological addiction has to be interrupted

It actually is this simple (according to me) if you look at it from another angle:

These addicts drink or do drugs because this short time pleasure + avoidence of pain is stronger than the long term avoidence of pain + pleasure.

Yes, they have to work on the thought patterns. They have to associate more pleasure and less pain with NOT drinking than with drinking.

For me this is very basic, but it makes sence on every level.

Avoidence of pain + pleasure > pleasure OR avoidence of pain (for me)
Avoidence of pain > pleasure (for me)