Subjective Reality BS

[keysersoze311]

Greetings people. This whole Subjective Reality thing bugs the hell out of me. Here's why.

The fact is, there are 6 billion human beings on this planet, and each one of us, including enlightened beings, has a completely unique experience. I am aware of sensations in my body, thoughts in my head, and I see out of my eyes. Similarly, you are aware of sensations in your body, thoughts in your head, and you see out of your eyes. Each one us is intermingled with a specific physical body, and each one of us watches a completely private movie of sense perceptions. You can never feel my physical pain, and I can never feel yours. Our experiences are entirely separate.

I suppose we could say that the one thing we all have in common is "awareness", that backdrop to all of our experience. Even an earthworm is aware, though probably aware of very different things (I bet it doesn't worry about things as much as me)! But the point is, each of us is a separate field of awareness, aware of completely different things. That cannot be disputed. In each conscious being, a unique and private experience is happening; each one of us is a unique stream of perceptions.

When the word "I" is used, it refers to that unique field of awareness. Whether we call each field of awareness a "self" or not, is a moot point. The fact is that each of us is a completely distinct mind/body entity. It is not as if consciousness is simultaneously aware of every thought, feeling, and perception in the Universe, that's not how it works. Instead, there are many fields of awareness, all aware of completely different things.

In any given moment, there are 6 billion (human) fields of awareness, each distict and separate. But it is also true that each field of awareness flows from one moment to the next, and remembers only those things that it has experienced. In that sense, it seems completely self-evident that each of us is a separate self. In other words, a separate and continuous field of awareness. An enlightened being is still a unique and separate field of awareness.

Everything I've written above is fact. We are all separate fields of awareness. There is no Subjective Reality, it's bollocks. I'd love to see you try and argue against what I've just written, cos it disproves SR completely. There is no "One", we are all entirely separate. It makes me feel quite sick to think that so many people have accepted this model, without going through the simple thought processes outlined above.

[Shamou]

The famous author Robert Pirsig tell us..."If metaphysic helps you... fine... if not, leave it alone and go on your merry way without it..."

Might be good advice for you...

.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Shamou

The famous author Robert Pirsig tell us..."If metaphysic helps you... fine... if not, leave it alone and go on your merry way without it..."

Might be good advice for you...

.

Shamou, I love that quote, and will borrow it liberally in the future.

Keysersoze, there are so many annoyed rant threads about subjective reality on this forum already. Why start another?

[mysterygal]

I agree 100 percent. Steve's subjective reality is no more than a glorified solipsism.

[absvan]

I am not here to argue about SR. So if you are here to prove me wrong, then none of us will win. The only outcome is that one of us will think the other person is a jack@$$ .

If you are here to discuss/understand/learn about SR, then great. The first step is to stop identifying yourself as your body/senses/ego. Your post above shows otherwise....and then you might want to check this thread. It has an indepth disussion. The Big SR Sticking Point

If that does not help, then I highly recommend to read these books.
"I am that", which is a collection of converstions with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, and "Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi".

[Akashic_Librarian]

Originally Posted by keysersoze311

Everything I've written above is fact. We are all separate fields of awareness.

Can you prove this?

If you can prove we all have seperate fields of awareness. Then I agree with you

[keysersoze311]

Originally Posted by absvan

The first step is to stop identifying yourself as your body/senses/ego. Your post above shows otherwise....

If I don't indentify myself with my body/senses/ego, there's nothing left. The experience I'm having right now is the only reality I know. And it's completely different from your reality, which consists of your experience. 2 different experiencers. Fact. The idea that we are all "one" at some higher level is cute, but has no substance whatsoever. Where exactly is this higher level? It's not here right now. Right now, I am having an experience, and you are having an experience, we're completely separate. 2 points of view which by definition are not one.

People say "when you take away the ego/body/senses" you're left with awareness/consciousness, one awareness. Again, incorrect. You are left with 6 billion separate awarenesses (just talkin bout human minds). Where's the "one"? Its a total fallacy. Every experience is a separate reality, they are not all one. That just doesn't make any sense.

[keysersoze311]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Can you prove this?

If you can prove we all have seperate fields of awareness. Then I agree with you

By definition, it is true. I am aware. You are aware. We are aware at the same time (this moment). But, we are aware of completely different things, we are having completely different experiences.

To say we are separate fields of awareness is self evident. There is awareness in every living creature, there is one piece of awareness in each creature. Hence, we all watch a different movie, all have a unique experience. We are all individual awarenesses.

Awareness is not aware of every thought , feeling, vision in the Universe. Instead, there are many different blobs of awareness, and each one has a totally unique experience, and witnesses different things. I can't hear the music when my mum's at the opera, you can't feel the pain when I stub my toe. We are all separate awarenesses, aware of different stuff.

Sorry for repating myself so much, but I'm trying to get my point across, and its completely self-evident!

[Akashic_Librarian]

keysersoze311 you obviously have genuine concern for people, but the way you phrase your problems is very offensive and it upsets alot of people to have their faith and in many cases, irrefutable experience challenged by some one they have never met and never will.

Why are you doing this? What good will come of taunting others with different beliefs. Why don't you go and mock Christians, Vegetarians, Jews, Muslims, Scientologists and Buddhists whilst your at it. Your being very immature about your approach, if you just calmed down, asked some serious questions, did your homework and stopped jumping to conclusions, then maybe we could talk properly, and together we could work through what your feeling and help you to understand our side of things better. It would be a learning experience for all involved because we could learn how people come to negative conclusions about our belief and help to assuade this from happening in the future, yes?

[absvan]

Originally Posted by keysersoze311

If I don't indentify myself with my body/senses/ego, there's nothing left. The experience I'm having right now is the only reality I know.

Have you heard or OBE - Out of body experiences?? How do you think people do that.??

As Steve says, you have to drop the lens your are using now and look thro a new lens. If you use your current lens to look at new lens, you will see a blurred view.....and thats whats happening to you.

[keysersoze311]

Nobody has ever been able to prove a legitimate OBE. Most likely just a fantasy of the mind. We dream every night, it's possible to create illusion, and no1 has EVER proven an OBE, by telling someone something they couldn't possibly have known unless theyd been out of body

[keysersoze311]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

keysersoze311 you obviously have genuine concern for people, but the way you phrase your problems is very offensive and it upsets alot of people to have their faith and in many cases, irrefutable experience challenged by some one they have never met and never will.

Why are you doing this? What good will come of taunting others with different beliefs. Why don't you go and mock Christians, Vegetarians, Jews, Muslims, Scientologists and Buddhists whilst your at it. Your being very immature about your approach, if you just calmed down, asked some serious questions, did your homework and stopped jumping to conclusions, then maybe we could talk properly, and together we could work through what your feeling and help you to understand our side of things better. It would be a learning experience for all involved because we could learn how people come to negative conclusions about our belief and help to assuade this from happening in the future, yes?

No? I'm doing this, because people are throwing away the rational intellect they've been blessed with. It's far too easy to go "rationality sucks man, be spiritual", and accept stuff blindly. But, if you read my posts carefully, you will see that by employing mere logic, SR in nonsensical. There is no "One", separate expereinces by definition mean preciself that, separate. The "One" is a fancy idea, but what the hell does it mean? Absolutely nothing. "One" cannot have 2 experiences simul;taneously. That makes 2. Sorry, but SR is rubbish, and I'm just trying to show people not to waste their lives with it.

Instead of thinking "I can manifest whatever I want in my SR", just stop desiring things, then you'll be free. If you make life a game of manifesting and obtaining what you want, you're never gona be satisfied. True peace comes from letting go your desires.

[absvan]

Originally Posted by keysersoze311

Nobody has ever been able to prove a legitimate OBE. Most likely just a fantasy of the mind. We dream every night, it's possible to create illusion, and no1 has EVER proven an OBE, by telling someone something they couldn't possibly have known unless theyd been out of body

Allright, you dream every night. Can you prove to me that you were aware while dreaming/sleeping. What happened to the billion people when you were sleeping?? Can you prove to me that they existed when you were sleeping??

See, we need the mind and the senses to prove that there are a billion other people with their awareness blah blah...once there is no mind//senses they dont exist-----only pure awareness exist.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Not rationality. You employ Objectivity. From an objective stand point you are correct, unequivocally correct my good sir. But from a Subjective Lenspoint, your wrong. Dead wrong. Fatally wrong.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

keysersoze311 you obviously have genuine concern for people, but the way you phrase your problems is very offensive and it upsets alot of people to have their faith and in many cases, irrefutable experience challenged by some one they have never met and never will.

I think keysersoze311 is being very clear and un-offensive. The flaming is starting but not from keysersoze311. To wonder what the heck SR is is natural. Especially Steve's view of it - Steve has made it more than just subjective experience. I can't conclude that other people are not conscious, like Steve says. Steve would have us conclude based on what? The only point is no one can prove other people are conscious. Just because we can't prove something isn't going to make one side or the other correct.

To struggle with seeing duality all the time is what we are all up against. Our language itself is involved with seperating and making "things" of what is "outside" of us. At some point the duality illusion doesn't have a strong hold on one, then maybe there's that feeling that all is one. And probably all the little egos still exist. Peak experiences of untiy are realized through the awareness using our senses. The field of oneness exists along with our individuality.

[keysersoze311]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Not rationality. You employ Objectivity. From an objective stand point you are correct, unequivocally correct my good sir. But from a Subjective Lenspoint, your wrong. Dead wrong. Fatally wrong.

The only way I am wrong, is if THIS is the only experience in the world. My experience is the only experience. I have struggled with solipsism before, believe me. If when I talk to a friend, and look him in the eyes, he isn't actually looking at me, then yeh, there is one, and its me. But if all the people I see are also having experiences, there is no One.

As long as you believe there are 6 billion humans, SR makes no sense at all. It only makes sense if your experience is the only experience, and your friends are hollow projections in your dream. If however, there are 6 billion humans, all having an experience, there is no SR, it is rubbish. There is no "One" which simultaneously experiences itself through 6 bliion human nervous systems, that's rubbish.

The only way SR is true is if nothing except this experience exists.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Well then there is your answer. Now just pick up the subjective lens. Drop your pre-concieved notions and look away at the world before you as it truly is. A projection of consciousness.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by keysersoze311

To say we are separate fields of awareness is self evident. There is awareness in every living creature, there is one piece of awareness in each creature. Hence, we all watch a different movie, all have a unique experience. We are all individual awarenesses.

Awareness is not aware of every thought , feeling, vision in the Universe. Instead, there are many different blobs of awareness, and each one has a totally unique experience, and witnesses different things. I can't hear the music when my mum's at the opera, you can't feel the pain when I stub my toe. We are all separate awarenesses, aware of different stuff.

Keysersoze.
I agree with you 100%.

But then we run into a dichotomy.
I agree 100% with the concept that everyone has their own awareness AND everyone has their own subjective reality.
(Can I control another beings responses? No.)

It's completely self evident that everyone has their own subjective reality, because they talk of things I don't experience.

Ergo, my reality is completely different then yours, hence my reality is subjective to me and your is subjective to you.

To fry the noodle even more, everything we see is simply 'snapshots' out of an immensely vast reality, and time is us simply putting 'grooves' in these vastly available 'snapshots' to choose from.

Conclusion?
We live in a very strange and mysterious place.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by keysersoze311

Everything I've written above is fact. We are all separate fields of awareness. There is no Subjective Reality, it's bollocks.

Congratulations!! You've just proved to yourself that SR is not the true nature of reality.................but wait a minute, everything you've written, you say is fact, so therefore you must have proof, you must have evidence to disprove SR. But all you have is your belief that it's BS, your belief is hardly proof and/or evidence, in fact it's just your opinion based on what you believe.

I'm always interested when people get bent out of shape about SR, why bother arguing it? Why bother criticising it? Why get angry at at the people who believe it or find it interesting.

I'll tell you why.

Because you're afraid it might actually be true, it challenges your belief to the point where it scares you, that's why you're angry and frustrated. Instead of accepting someone else's beliefs, you want them to change their beliefs to yours, because their beliefs might be right and we can't have that can we

Enjoy!
Max Power
"Inspect, accept or reject"

[Dharma]

You cannot see the one consciousness with the mind. That's everyone's error. And that's why conversations on this forum go in circles a lot.

The mind is a manifestation of that consciousness. I do recommend reading Ramana Maharshi as another poster suggested.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Dharma

You cannot see the one consciousness with the mind.

I consider that when one can see that one is not inside the body it uses, that it is actually everything within awareness, then you can see consciousness or true self, you can see that you are the observer and observed.

I suppose that means you are outside mind, but hopefully not out of your mind

Enjoy!
Max Power
"Remember he's crazy, not stupid"

[Mr.Mustache]

Originally Posted by keysersoze311

Nobody has ever been able to prove a legitimate OBE. Most likely just a fantasy of the mind. We dream every night, it's possible to create illusion, and no1 has EVER proven an OBE, by telling someone something they couldn't possibly have known unless theyd been out of body

You my friend are nothing but a pseudo-skeptic (look that up please). A pseudo-skeptic denies rather than doubts. That is you are not open-minded to the concept you doubt. If you were open-minded then you would give the concept of the LoA (subjective reality) a chance and you would go and have an OBE which btw has been proven to be a separate phenomena from dreams weather it is fantasy or not. Pseudo-skeptics also have a tendency to insult. You also ask for evidence to prove claims but you do not offer evidence against it, this is also pseudo-skepticism. No one to date has been able to reproduce anomalous data associated with OBE and although the phenomena has not objectivley been proven, there is evidence of a paranormal aspect of OBE. So, quite frankly your above statements are misleading because the research is not finished.

You do not understand subjective reality. You say because we have a separate field of awarness this somehow disproves subjective reality. SR simply says that you choose or create what you experience, therefore, how you feel internally will effect the things you percieve externally.

No one can prove or disprove SR. This is because it is not a scientific statement because science is founded on the principles of objective reality which also cannot be proven or disproven. If LoA (SR) works for you then use it, if it does not then don't use it, it is not a matter of proving or disproving anything.

If you still claim to be able to disprove SR then I kindly ask you to prove objective reality.

[ballhit]

There's no room for the word "is" within subjective reality.

Change your language and watch the world divide into hardware (the six billion different brain/sense/genital vessels) and into software (the thoughts which create symbol systems, belief systems, pleasure, rapture, paradox, the archetypes, blah blah)

[elai]

People could explain "subjective reality" a lot better if they avoid all resemblances of circular/self-referential logic in their arguments. So far all explanations that I have seen have been fundamentally circular and thus nonsensical to most, including me. Even though circular logic can be made logically true, it usually confuses people to no end and people see what your saying as a set of paradoxes. I wonder how many people here take subjective reality from a faith/emotional viewpoint after finding it emotionally appealing but couldn't really understand it on a fundamental level.

If 'subjective reality' is not "we are all one super-consciousness separated by a filter called the illusion of reality" philosophy or pure solipsism then things will have to be explained better.

About circular logic:
Begging the question - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
About paradoxes:
Paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by elai

People could explain "subjective reality" a lot better if they avoid all resemblances of circular/self-referential logic in their arguments. So far all explanations that I have seen have been fundamentally circular and thus nonsensical to most, including me. Even though circular logic can be made logically true, it usually confuses people to no end and people see what your saying as a set of paradoxes. I wonder how many people here take subjective reality from a faith/emotional viewpoint after finding it emotionally appealing but couldn't really understand it on a fundamental level.

If 'subjective reality' is not "we are all one super-consciousness separated by a filter called the illusion of reality" philosophy or pure solipsism then things will have to be explained better.

About circular logic:
Begging the question - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
About paradoxes:
Paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

SR is like all belief systems, you have to try it on to see if it fits. Look at christainity, it has a vast following, detailed written theory and it makes no sense (to me) whatsoever!

Words fail all beliefs.

People want SR to be explained in a logical, provable, evidential manner, they think it's science more than belief, because it doesn't have a god.

Enjoy!
Max Power
My Song

[Dive Bomb]

Yeah pretty much SR is a lens/belief system to empower yourself. Don't take it to literally. Use it to your advantage.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Dive Bomb

Yeah pretty much SR is a lens/belief system to empower yourself. Don't take it to literally. Use it to your advantage.

Exactly, what's the point in adopting a belief system if it doesn't empower you, although to take full advantage of any system one must adopt it as best as one can