Another sticky question

[DaveTyler]

EDIT dno how i managed to double post, must be an obsessive thought in your head Max

[AidanMatthews216]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Also I see many of these believer in SR believe in enlightenment, but that means you must believe in karma, which throws you subjective reality in the trash, cause that means KARMA is causing like 80% of what is happening in your life...
I have given like 20 examples of why SR from ego perspective can't be truth alll I get back is "IM GOD STFU I CREATE YOU" and the more creative version "YOUR GOD THE ONLY CONSCIOUS ONE, NOT ME" trying to fool me into your cult like a crazy Jehovas Witness person....

If you think they evangelize so much (which they don't), then why do you come this forum and read their posts? Are you out to be brainwashed and made a member of a cult? It's a little hypocritical, since *you're* the one who said that you think the other side is delusional and you want to cure them.

[Shindra]

This is all just from the POV that LoA is real, ignore and discard if you choose. This here post is not about arguing *if* it is true, but rather what the particulars are if it is.

Originally Posted by Max Power

Why is this realm so dense? In dreams you can create just about anything, but here it's more challenging. Is that the way we've chosen it, to make it more interesting rather than just having god powers in a physical reality, I'd imagine that would become boring very quickly.

If all was like dreams, and completely unlimited and un-'dense', the very concept of time would be a moot point, since one could just exchange a whole scene with something else. It would probably be impossible to experience suffering and fear and joy and achievement and desire, and to explore different mental states, without a 'dense' reality with egos and whatnot... Actually, even lucid dreams can be somewhat 'dense' - I recall Steve wrote something about how he couldn't fly immediately, but began with a sort of high jumps, and trained to be able to fly in lucid dreams.
I think all the tension and worry and frustration that we have about the reality we are primarily in, the one in which we are 'awake', causes us to focus more on limits and slowness and 'density' and such create it. It establishes 'denser' beliefs, because we start out at low, fearful levels of consciousness.
By LoA/IM, if we worry about something and then see an indication that it might happen/be so, we will be inclined to believe it more and see more indication, up to and including full manifestation.

Our underlying beliefs about the 'density' of reality are always active. Other thoughts are influenced by those.
Dreams are not subject to logic - indeed the logical mind is turned off in dreams that are not lucid. Dreams exist at the level of imagination, we are very aware that they are subject to our minds and exist at the level of our minds, we have no limiting beliefs that the dream-reality is something that exists outside of us independently of us.
This 'physical' realm, on the other hand, is subject to logically structured beliefs of movement and gradual change and laws of physics and such. It's actually not more challenging. You're believing in, aware of, gravity right now - and it is so. If you had a thought of flying, it would be colored by that belief, so you could imagine flying, but you'd at the same time know it's only imagination. According to the most extreme version of LoA (the one that would be most congruent with SR), this realm works just as fast - it's actually not more dense, more seperated from your mind, it's just that you believe that it is. What is challenging - equally challenging everywhere - is changing your beliefs. If you believe it is impossible to feel pain in dreams, you would never feel pain in dreams unless you started doubting "hmm, maybe it is possible to feel pain and other bodily sensations in dreams" - you would likely experience that more or less immediately then as we know (believe completely) that dreams are subject to our most fickle imagination.

Also responding to other comments in this thread - LoA isn't just about thinking, which seems to confuse many people - it's not about fickle thoughts. It's about changing underlying beliefs, what you 'know' about the world. We can percieve both imagination and physical reality at once. If we look at a table and imagine an apple is on it, that is different from being aware of an apple being on the table and percieving it as so, knowing it.

Visualising works to the degree that it influences you to believe that it is possible and will happen to you. You think more and more of the possibility, and then things come into your life that reinforces that it is so, so there is a feedback loop imaginationthought<->perception - depending on one's definition of thought, perception can be said to be thought too, but we have the ability to see one thought as seperate from another.

If you think of a dragon, you know it's just a fantasy. If you constantly worry that people are going to harass you, and believe the world is a threatening place, that is what you will experience.

Originally Posted by Max Power

Can someone really fly at will, but they don't share that with anyone for fear of being locked up. If you could fly or manifest amazing things instantly would you go around sharing that information with people? I think the kind of person who could master this plane isn't the kind of person who would brag about it.
Max

A person who can fly at will will not meet a person who believes people cannot fly at will, and vice-versa.

[DaveTyler]

Just another thing someone here said that I must not get SR because if I did I would know that what you have created cant be uncreated, thats stupid, you create a belief, destroy it and make up a new one.According to you you could never make a belief of subjectivereality in thefirst place.
The fact is that the nly thing you create in subjective "reality" is your belief.

Another thing, look at actors,they play a COMPLETELY other person for weeks, but it doesnt change them, their still the same person PLAYING a character.They dnt BECOME The character as SR would claim.
Another thing I dont understand is how you believe thoughts really create anything but distress once you give them credit.
Your senses arent created by thoughts.Your body was created by your mom and dad.. The world was created by God or whatever you want to call it. your thoughts are created by your brain.How do you like that oO

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Your body was created by your mom and dad.. The world was created by God or whatever you want to call it. your thoughts are created by your brain.How do you like that oO

Well Dave, I would like to call it, consciousness and if I want to believe in SR, then it's my consciousness and everything including my body/mind and even you are a product of that consciousness, how do you like that

You don't want to discuss SR, what you want is to have a full blown argument about it, so you can rant and rave until everyone agrees with you. You're not looking for any information about SR and you sure as hell, don't want to be convinced of it.

You seem to be on some kind of personal crusade to convince eveyrone that SR is dangerous or a bad thing. You're entitled to your opinion, but I find it pointless to question SR under the guise of getting people not to follow it. Just come right out and start a thread about how stupid you think it is instead of pretending to legitimately question it.

Max Power

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Shindra

I think all the tension and worry and frustration that we have about the reality we are primarily in, the one in which we are 'awake', causes us to focus more on limits and slowness and 'density' and such create it. It establishes 'denser' beliefs, because we start out at low, fearful levels of consciousness.

I would guess that in dreams we are at a higher level of consciousness without so much fear that restrict us here in physical reality. As we live in this physical world we are trying to get back to perfection, the perfection of consciousness, not bound by time, space or physicality and that when we dream we get a daily reminder of just how unlimited and unrestricted consciousness is.

People think when they dream at night, that it's just the body resting while the mind wanders, but I consider that it's actually geting back in touch with true self, consciousness, like dropping by everyday to remember how great it all is and then back to the game, the game of physical life which in itself is just a journey to get 100% back to perfection.

Max

Great to see you back posting Shindra, always interesting. I was thinking the other day how I hadn't seen you post lately and wondered if you'd come back, what a coincidence

[DaveTyler]

Ok man, thats cool. I just think itsretarded how you are arguing with me when you infact agree with me. You contradict yourself just by coming here to discuss with us (your subconscious mind).
And think about it man, you are never IN YOUR dream, your watching the dream. your still here in phyiscal reality like all of us.
What if you fell, crushed your skull and suddenly couldnt think anymore, just watch, what would create reality then?

[Shindra]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

And think about it man, you are never IN YOUR dream, your watching the dream.

that is a great point to reiterate - that consciousness isn't *within* physical reality.

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Just another thing someone here said that I must not get SR because if I did I would know that what you have created cant be uncreated, thats stupid, you create a belief, destroy it and make up a new one.

yeah, I think that person had it wrong, or didn't quite mean it that way. Things change, things disappear all the time.

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Another thing, look at actors,they play a COMPLETELY other person for weeks, but it doesnt change them, their still the same person PLAYING a character.They dnt BECOME The character as SR would claim.

SR does not, in any way, claim that. And I think you mean to talk about Law of Attraction / Intention-Manifestation here, because SR's main point is that there's only one consciousness, not how things are created in it. Steve actually thought of SR as a way to *explain* LoA, so it came after that.
And LoA/IM doesn't say that either.
The actors are quite aware that they are playing. They do not firmly believe that they will 'morph' into those characters and lose themself. They know what they are doing. LoA does not negate the seperate existence of imagination.

And remember that SR states that consciousness is not contained within the physical body, so those brain and skull-crushed arguments don't get you anywhere.

You haven't got a hold on this, Dave. Or you're assuming everyone else doesn't, like everyone who believes in SR is trying to think their ego is god, and that doesn't get us anywhere. You don't need to defend that point - it's already in Steve's posts that the ego isn't god, that consciousness isn't contained within the ego.
And everything would go a lot smoother if you'd argue one thing at a time, instead of mixing SR and LoA.


... May I find something better to do...

[Shindra]

Originally Posted by Max Power

As we live in this physical world we are trying to get back to perfection, the perfection of consciousness, not bound by time, space or physicality and that when we dream we get a daily reminder of just how unlimited and unrestricted consciousness is.

Love that thought

Originally Posted by Max Power

People think when they dream at night, that it's just the body resting while the mind wanders, but I consider that it's actually geting back in touch with true self, consciousness, like dropping by everyday to remember how great it all is and then back to the game, the game of physical life which in itself is just a journey to get 100% back to perfection.

You know, I've heard that so many places, in various spiritual teachings - like sleep is a 'vacation for the soul', or however else they word it.
And I like that "to get back to perfection". Whenever I've raised my consciousness, it always seemed like I was becoming more aware of what I already am, not that I became more than I was.

Originally Posted by Max Power

Great to see you back posting Shindra, always interesting.

Thanks, but don't expect it to last. I'm just here for a short stint - I don't have much in the way of new thoughts to contribute now, and really should be off doing some mental research and polish off my ideas - I'm not being productive but heck. Time off.

Originally Posted by Max Power

I was thinking the other day how I hadn't seen you post lately and wondered if you'd come back, what a coincidence

.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Ok man, thats cool. I just think itsretarded how you are arguing with me when you infact agree with me. You contradict yourself just by coming here to discuss with us (your subconscious mind).
And think about it man, you are never IN YOUR dream, your watching the dream. your still here in phyiscal reality like all of us.
What if you fell, crushed your skull and suddenly couldnt think anymore, just watch, what would create reality then?

Dave, I can't respond to you anymore, you barely make sense and presume so much, you constantly want to engage in an argument, like I said, you don't care about SR, you just want to label and ridicule anyone who doesn't want to support you in your quest to bring down the concept of SR.

I'm searching for answers, you're looking for an argument, I really don't know why you bother.

Max

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Shindra

Love that thought
Thanks, but don't expect it to last. I'm just here for a short stint - I don't have much in the way of new thoughts to contribute now, and really should be off doing some mental research and polish off my ideas - I'm not being productive but heck. Time off.

C'mon Shindra, you have to stick around, you're the really smart, interesting version of my consciousness, helping all the parts become cohesive

Max

[DaveTyler]

Ok its like this: Theres one consciousness/God consciousness, its not yours.
Lol claiming its yours is bringing ego into the picture immediately. The one consciousness that EVERY SINGLE LIFE FORM got is Gods, you and I are just as real. When you "become" that consciousness, THERE IS NO YOU, YOU DIE. Remember that.

and no I dont want to argue, I just try to save people from the trap I fell into, where you start believing everything you think of becomes real as Steve says.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Dave my friend, I think you absolutely right with your points. When you do claim you are Consciousness then Ego is brought in! Absolutely spot on.

However Dave when you say that

"Theres one consciousness/God consciousness, its not yours."

Your just a little bit off the mark because your right in saying there is only One Consciousness, most people don't grasp that so good job! However you should rephrase this bit "its not yours" and instead have it say "Its not ALL yours" because we all share that consciousness, its not any particular persons, its inside everyone.

What if you fell, crushed your skull and suddenly couldnt think anymore, just watch, what would create reality then?

Ok Dave in this situation its a perfectly obvious argument to point out, just WHAT WOULD create reality, well the truth is, for whom ever has just had their skull crushed their physical reality would not continue, and as such, no one would exist physically for them. Instead they would be creating the "afterlife" scenario. Now for you and me who obviously wasn't crushed and killed, we would still perceive reality, but that does not mean that there is one main reality which we just plug in to and out of, each reality belongs to each person. As such our reality continues unhampered. Now for the dead person, their physical reality stops functioning because they no longer percieve it, they are in their own reality. I cannot percieve you Dave throguh any other means than the text on this forum. Until I was stood next to you, you couldn't possibly exist in any physical way and vice versa...Its all very complicated

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

"Its not ALL yours" because we all share that consciousness, its not any particular persons, its inside everyone.

Hehe Very funny and not true, we don't share anything. Believing in SR places ownership of consciousness solely on the one who is aware, remember this thread is about 'who is consciousness' not trying to figure out wether we all share it or saying it's everywhere.

Placing consciousness outside of yourself is like saying "it's not my fault"

Plot thickens
Max

[Akashic_Librarian]

Actually SR is the belief that conscious is being percieved through you, its like picking a different window to look out of.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

When you "become" that consciousness, THERE IS NO YOU, YOU DIE. Remember that.

So, sorta like the Borg in the Star trek series?

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

The world was created by God or whatever you want to call it. your thoughts are created by your brain.How do you like that oO

I don't like that at all, in fact I'm very upset about it !


Enough foolin around......

Dave.
Right. The world could be created by a god.

Or it could be like the pic below.

(I don't mean this literal, but you get the idea.)

[Lychee]

She's married and she has kids. She has an established family. And what do you want her for? A booty call?

Ok its like this: Theres one consciousness/God consciousness, its not yours.
Lol claiming its yours is bringing ego into the picture immediately. The one consciousness that EVERY SINGLE LIFE FORM got is Gods, you and I are just as real. When you "become" that consciousness, THERE IS NO YOU, YOU DIE. Remember that.

I agree when you say we are not God, but we are connected to God. But could you clarify - what do you mean by you become God consciousness?

Your senses arent created by thoughts.Your body was created by your mom and dad.. The world was created by God or whatever you want to call it. your thoughts are created by your brain.How do you like that oO

Again, I agree.

Infinitethoughts:

Regarding the picture: where did the beaker come from? The liquid? The brain? The wires? The computer? (No sarcasm.)

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

and no I dont want to argue, I just try to save people from the trap I fell into, where you start believing everything you think of becomes real as Steve says.

I think you moved from one trap to another. If you're brave, try reading "The Disappearance of the Universe" or "A Course in Miracles". It might put a different spin on things for you.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by lychee

Regarding the picture: where did the beaker come from? The liquid? The brain? The wires? The computer? (No sarcasm.)

So the question is, who created the mechanism represented symbolicaly in the pic?

We did, from the other side of existance.
(Pre-birth and after-life.)

Go watch the movie The Thirteenth Floor.

But again, I don't mean it LITERALLY.
The movie is a symbolic, a very loose (!) symbolic , representation of our reality.

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

So the question is, who created the mechanism represented symbolicaly in the pic?

We did, from the other side of existance.
(Pre-birth and after-life.)

Go watch the movie The Thirteenth Floor.

But again, I don't mean it LITERALLY.
The movie is a symbolic, a very loose (!) symbolic , representation of our reality.

I mentioned in this another thread, but I doubt I'd create the materials to experience evil in this world. How does it make any sense to choose to create a world with negativity? Wouldn't it make more sense to create a game with the absence of evil?

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by Lychee

I mentioned in this another thread, but I doubt I'd create the materials to experience evil in this world. How does it make any sense to choose to create a world with negativity? Wouldn't it make more sense to create a game with the absence of evil?

This is related.

[Adrienne]

I understand that this is a every heated debate with very heated questions that draws very strong reactions back and forth.

Let's please try and be mindful that there are people on the other side of the post (whether they are part of you or not).

I know this is a heated debate, but if we could steer away from being so harsh that would make people more open to the ideas presented and make them feel less defensive.

Thanks
Adrienne

[Angela]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Lets say a girl focuses on how much she hates you and you focus on how much you love her. It would never work

Focusing on how much you love someone always works.

[DaveTyler]

I couldnt exist in physical reality? Wtf, thats a contradiction.
WE ALL EXIST IN PHYSICAL REALITY MAN. how can you say vica versa thats agreeing that I exist.

and infinite your saying that your consciousness is your brain, so when in reality your brain and body dies you die.

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

This is related.

A convenient answer.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Consciousness is a tricky thing to discuss because you have to first come to an agreement as to what is consciousness. Is it a chemical thing? A spiritual thing? OR indeed an illusion? Just what is concsiousness. For a soul to leave the body it makes sense that consciousness is a seperate thing to the body...right?

[Lychee]

Consciousness is a spirit thing.