Enlightenment versus Subjective reality

[DaveTyler]

How can someone actually believe Subjective Reality is thetruth when your not enlightened?
I experienced oness once, then all "I" dissapears and you laugh your ass off at the ego's in people who try to claim God. No wonder why Ego is called satan,it's like the story of Lucifer trying to take over God. Lol:P Maybe that was the purpose of christianity.

None of you got unconditional love and no ego, so why get stuck in SR and not go for enlightenment, your clearly on the path but don't mix up oness with soliphism

[absvan]

Dave,

I think you have got it wrong - SR/Nonduality/Advaita Vedanta is the state of enlightenment. Please read my comments in this thread. The Big SR Sticking Point

BTW, I am not trying to say that I am right and you are wrong. - Hopefully this will lead to a healthy discussion.

[Erock]

Yeah I think Steve is close with subjective reality, but the fundamental flaw is that one is not the mind-body construct so the one thing that is conscious is the impersonal consciousness.

The way I understand it as of right now is:

One is ultimately a complete state of subjectivity or unmanifested that is unaware of itself. Impersonal consciousness is a reflection of the ultimate state, and it is focalized at different points which creates conscious beings.

I'm not sure if this is right, but using this explanation, if one is identified with the mind-body then of course every one else is conscious. If, on the other hand, one is enlightened and has identified with the impersonal consciousness, obviously there is not "seperate" consciousnesses.

Everyone has control over reality, because of course we are all consciousness, so this may be why intention-manifestation works.

Erock

[DaveTyler]

Nope, no seperate consciousness u feel connected tothe whole universe.
It doesnt make other people you tho, theres only ONE you, only one everyone else.
Actually YOU can never get enlightened, cause at enlightenment YOU infact die, your ego, personality = dead.
you still know everyone's "oness" is just as much worth as yours though.

[Takuin Minamoto]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

I experienced oness once, then all "I" dissapears and you laugh your ass off at the ego's in people who try to claim God.

If you became one with the moment, and could finally see whatever it was sitting in front of you, how could it not continue? I ask this because it seems like you are saying you had it, then it went away. Once it comes, there is no turning back.

If you laughed your ass off at the ego in others, what exactly was doing the laughing? Why would you ever laugh at another's idea? That would be your ego in action. Your thoughts about why they are somewhat off kilter. How could you laugh without comparing them to something else that seems to be right to you?

Most likely what you experienced was a fantasy, and not any kind of oneness. The human mind is quite extraordinary, as we all already know, and we can imagine any "experience" we focus on long enough. But if one is truly in the moment, it doesn't come from experience (or thought). Our experiences are too limited and dead. You cannot be in the moment if you are seeing through your experience.

I question whether anyone really wants freedom (or to be in the moment). I wrote a little bit about it in my blog a few weeks ago. You can check it out here.

How can someone actually believe Subjective Reality is thetruth when your not enlightened?

A better question might be, how can someone believe anything if they are enlightened?

Enlightenment is a useless word, anyway. I guess if you have to call a "state" something, one word is as good as any other. But the danger becomes striving to achieve the word, as if it is something to be found outside of us. The word becomes something to be achieved. I would question if there is anything at all to search for, or anything at all to be free from.

What state could there be other than the state you are in from moment to moment?

[DaveTyler]

No, LOL if you think enlightenment is permanent the first time youve got it wrong, you get peaks, not FULL enlightenment, ************ takes time.
Who was doing the laughing? My body, it's known as the cosmic joke, read upon it its a well known phenomena;P
How it could stop? I willed it to stop cause I didnt feel ready to die.
I felt too connected to the whole existance, I was afraid to move incase I'd kick the world out of it's axis.
Energy of love surrounded my body, it was beautiful but for a teenager with no prior preparation I wasn't ready. I regret it now, but at the time "you" die its just as scary for your ego as if someone put a gun infront of you and aimed it at your head, either you move or you die...
For the ego its a simple choice.

And no its not a fantasy, Ive tried to escape this happening to me for 2 years when my kundalini somehow spontaneously awakened, back then I didnt even know what God was, or kundalini for that matter, I was sure I was turning crazy.
Constant panic attacks, wondering if the whole world was fake.
I can see you dont know enough about it, and no, everyone doesnt experience it the same way, everyones experience is unique.
I suggest you read more about it and see that the enlightening peaks isn't permanent enlightenment

and wht do you mean with "dont loo within cause youll be destroyed beyond repair" whta kind of shitis that

[Takuin Minamoto]

No, LOL if you think enlightenment is permanent the first time youve got it wrong, you get peaks, not FULL enlightenment, ************ takes time.

If time were involved, thought would be in operation. Thought is a product of the past. How can it bring us into now?

Who was doing the laughing? My body, it's known as the cosmic joke, read upon it its a well known phenomena;P

I am not sure if reading about those kind of things can free any of us. Why not just look within? What can an idea do for me? All thoughts are old, and if we could free ourselves with knowledge, it would have already happened.

How it could stop? I willed it to stop cause I didnt feel ready to die.
I felt too connected to the whole existance, I was afraid to move incase I'd kick the world out of it's axis.

Why do you think that the experience you speak of is somehow separate from any other aspect of life? You are connected no matter what. It really doesn't matter what you do. You may or may not believe it, though.

Energy of love surrounded my body, it was beautiful but for a teenager with no prior preparation I wasn't ready. I regret it now, but at the time "you" die its just as scary for your ego as if someone put a gun infront of you and aimed it at your head, either you move or you die...
For the ego its a simple choice.

But if you die, how can the ego stop you? How can your thought, when seen for what it is, how can it have any power over you? Fear is a creation of thought. If one is afraid of the result, they have not seen any result; they have only seen fear.

And no its not a fantasy, Ive tried to escape this happening to me for 2 years when my kundalini somehow spontaneously awakened, back then I didnt even know what God was, or kundalini for that matter, I was sure I was turning crazy.

I don't know what God is, or kundalini for that matter. How can any of that help me? It is not a matter of being close-minded; I am just asking a question. How can it help?

And how is it possible to escape from what you already have?

Constant panic attacks, wondering if the whole world was fake.
I can see you dont know enough about it, and no, everyone doesnt experience it the same way, everyones experience is unique.
I suggest you read more about it and see that the enlightening peaks isn't permanent enlightenment

You are right. I don't know anything about it. Knowledge doesn't interfere if you are in the moment. How can it? If I know it, I know nothing. How can you know what the past cannot interfere with? (not you personally. it is just a question)

Events in people's lives might be unique, but experience is not. There is a difference, and that is all that I am talking about. Not necessarily the individual events.

Again, when you say experience you imply knowledge. How can knowledge set anyone free? I am not saying it can or cannot. I am just asking.

If I read something and accept it as true, what does it do for me? If I read about the "truth" of enlightenment, and I beleive it, then aren't I just copying someone else? How can that speak for me? You might say that it depends on experience. But how can that be? Experience is always of the past and dead. How can the past bring me into the moment?

When some speak of experience, they might be talking about the individual events that have happened to them in some sort of sequence, i.e., I was hit by a car, she is divorced, he has failed algebra, etc. But when I am talking about experience, I am talking about the whole thing, not just the fragments. Don't look at experiences, but see what is experience.

and wht do you mean with "dont loo within cause youll be destroyed beyond repair" whta kind of shitis that

Unless I have not made myself clear, which is of course entirely possible, all of the words leading up to that sentence are what it means. I guess you could say, if you want to stay safe in whatever your thoughts and beliefs are, then do not question your thoughts. If you go deep and question, nothing will ever be the same again.

[DaveTyler]

Experience is unique as long as your in your ego.
What happens in reality is the same, but with ego, yeah perception of the event is unique to each individual.

How it can help? Depends on you and your goals in life.

Personally I believe in soul/spirit etc. so I have to trust my instincts...

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Experience is unique as long as your in your ego.
What happens in reality is the same, but with ego, yeah perception of the event is unique to each individual.

How it can help? Depends on you and your goals in life.

Personally I believe in soul/spirit etc. so I have to trust my instincts...

Dave.
Since you believe in a soul and an ego.
I gotta ask;
Where is the exact dividing point between your 'soul' and your 'ego'?

[DaveTyler]

Well I look at it like the souls baggage is ego, so when you purify your soul through paying off karma in lifetimes, you eventually get enlightened, a pure soul.

[infinitethoughts]

Dave.
You missed the point of my question. You've created this division, as for example the division between the distance between you and your chair for example.

I'm asking you, in the mental realm, where divisions do not exist, except in the mind of the divider.....where is the exact dividing point between your 'ego' and your 'soul'?

[DaveTyler]

I believe Ego is the thinker, soul is the witness.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

I believe Ego is the thinker, soul is the witness.

So you're saying you would like to sit back and witness eternally?

[DaveTyler]

Its not like that, you become one with the moment kind of.
Instead of missing 80% of your life as you do when you live in the mind.
It's like being a kid, with no worries, pure experience, spontaneously, except you wont be childish:P

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Its not like that, you become one with the moment kind of.
Instead of missing 80% of your life as you do when you live in the mind.
It's like being a kid, with no worries, pure experience, spontaneously, except you wont be childish:P

I live that way now.