About the forum - rep

[Andrew Gubb]

About half the time I try to give rep I can't. I click the image and nothing happens. I think this isn't limited to just my computer, so I think it may be an issue with the forum itself.

By the way, I also have another thing to mention on the topic of rep. How about changing it for a "thanks" button? I've seen those in other forums and they seem more valuable than rep. It seems to foster a better feeling than rep; there's no competition and no actual way of doing negative thanks; and it's probably more reliable in terms of feedback, as rep can be hijacked with beastly threads (who would do such a thing??? ) and often has more to do with popularity I think.

Thoughts? Mods, can something be done about one or both of these things?

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

About half the time I try to give rep I can't. I click the image and nothing happens. I think this isn't limited to just my computer, so I think it may be an issue with the forum itself.

By the way, I also have another thing to mention on the topic of rep. How about changing it for a "thanks" button? I've seen those in other forums and they seem more valuable than rep. It seems to foster a better feeling than rep; there's no competition and no actual way of doing negative thanks; and it's probably more reliable in terms of feedback, as rep can be hijacked with beastly threads (who would do such a thing??? ) and often has more to do with popularity I think.

Thoughts? Mods, can something be done about one or both of these things?

Sometimes the site will not allow me to give rep, either. It's like everything kind of freezes for a moment or something. It would also be nice if there were no limits to the amount of times you can "rep" or "thank" a person. I feel like there are times when users will get on a "roll" (for lack of a better word) and make really great posts one after another. If we were allowed to rep them for each of these posts instead of having to make sure we spread the reputation around, it could really help build a person's confidence. I know most people don't put a lot of importance into the whole rep thing, but there are some that really get excited to see that others enjoy their posts. It's very encouraging for some.

[Andrew Gubb]

Yeah, I love getting positive feedback. Being able to get as many reps as people wanted to give me would be cool for me. A "thanks" system would probably work well for this. The rep limit was put in to avoid people abusing the system, but I doubt people would abuse "thanks"...

[Criseyde]

I don't know why the rep wouldn't be working. What browsers are y'all using?

The thing about rep vs. thanks is that rep is a built in vBulletin feature, and thanks isn't. I think there's a vbul hack that will allow you to give thanks, but remember, the more hacks/plugins/etc on the site, the more slowly it loads for everyone.

Personally -- I'm not speaking as a mod, here -- I don't see a problem with having the ability to leave negative feedback. I've never actually done it though. But it seems like the membership here is by and large mature enough to handle it.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Personally -- I'm not speaking as a mod, here -- I don't see a problem with having the ability to leave negative feedback. I've never actually done it though. But it seems like the membership here is by and large mature enough to handle it.

Exactly.

Plus, when you can thank just any post I think it makes it less meaningful than a rep. It's not exactly a 1:1 tradeoff as the system prevents you from repping based on the number of other people you've repped, but I like having to think about who I rep and for what.

No system of rep or thanks is going to be -that- meaningful, of course. The most valuable feedback almost always emerges in the threads themselves, or in private messages, but it's one of those things where there are enough benefits (and change would mean a lot of hassle) that it doesn't seem like we need to tinker with it.

The one benefit I'd see a thank system having over this is that with the restrictions lifted it would make it really clear which posts resonate with people the most. Those who might not leave any feedback otherwise would readily click a button, and they already do. The other side to that is that you can argue it forces you to be more clever when trying to solicit a response from the general forum populace.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

I don't know why the rep wouldn't be working. What browsers are y'all using?

The thing about rep vs. thanks is that rep is a built in vBulletin feature, and thanks isn't. I think there's a vbul hack that will allow you to give thanks, but remember, the more hacks/plugins/etc on the site, the more slowly it loads for everyone.

Oh, I see. And I use Chrome.

Personally -- I'm not speaking as a mod, here -- I don't see a problem with having the ability to leave negative feedback. I've never actually done it though. But it seems like the membership here is by and large mature enough to handle it.

I'm not Joke. I don't enjoy it though. Somehow I think there's a way of being positive about negative things you say. Rep doesn't mean much but a neg rep kinda feels like a rebuke, which doesn't feel like a nice way of getting a message across.

[ZephyrusX]

I think I'd rather have the forum running faster than have a 'thank you system'. If there is only a marginal difference in loading time, I suppose it wouldn't really matter that much though.

I think it really depends upon the individual as to whether or not a reputation or 'thank you' system fosters competition and ill will. I don't think it is going to make a difference if you simply change the words around. If you are vying for rep points, then you will do the same over 'thank yous'.

The only thing I really don't like about the rep system is that it forces me to rep 20 other people before I can rep the same person twice. There is, however, a really simple way around this. Just thank them directly or through a private message. You don't have to operate within the 'system' to show your appreciation and I'd hope that most people around here can judge the quality of a person's words and character outside of the rep system.

The only difference I could imagine is an increase in 'run by thanks' where people sort of just absent mindedly thank people if they resonate with a post. But personally, I'd prefer to know why someone likes my posts. I'm not a mind reader. After awhile, one too many reps or 'thank yous' that provide no context whatsoever start to feel meaningless.

Originally Posted by Criseyde

The thing about rep vs. thanks is that rep is a built in vBulletin feature, and thanks isn't. I think there's a vbul hack that will allow you to give thanks, but remember, the more hacks/plugins/etc on the site, the more slowly it loads for everyone.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I think it really depends upon the individual as to whether or not a reputation or 'thank you' system fosters competition and ill will. I don't think it is going to make a difference if you simply change the words around. If you are vying for rep points, then you will do the same over 'thank yous'.

Yes, I think so as well. Thanks ().

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Oh, I see. And I use Chrome.

Okay, I use Firefox. Momo, what are you using?

I'm not Joke. I don't enjoy it though. Somehow I think there's a way of being positive about negative things you say. Rep doesn't mean much but a neg rep kinda feels like a rebuke, which doesn't feel like a nice way of getting a message across.

I agree, actually, which is why I don't leave negative rep. I'd rather address any issue in the thread. But I think there's something to learn from negative rep -- getting and giving. What if I started to get a lot of negative rep? Maybe that would be a hint that my communication style wasn't working.

Overall, I think positive rep is used a lot more than negative rep, which (to me) says something cool about this forum that would go away if we only ever gave the option to leave positive rep.

[ZephyrusX]

Zephy + 1 - Everyone else 0

*twiddles thumbs*

Nice quote btw. You're making me want to read Wuthering Heights again. Its been awhile since I've read it.

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Yes, I think so as well. Thanks ().

[cacheborn]

Okay, I just tried and I could rep everyone above me except Zeph. Sorry, Zeph.

I think the rep program is not linear in the sense if you rep someone frequently, it may become slightly difficult to rep him/her many times. The way I do it is I give them freely to anyone and everyone, they are like hugs.

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Oh, I see. And I use Chrome.

I'm not Joke. I don't enjoy it though. Somehow I think there's a way of being positive about negative things you say. Rep doesn't mean much but a neg rep kinda feels like a rebuke, which doesn't feel like a nice way of getting a message across.

I've had at least two negative rep things given to me, but each one was accompanied by a positive comment about the post I made that was repped.

I don't like that I'm not allowed to give a rep to someone just because I recently gave that person one. I rarely ever push that button, so it actually means something if I do it, so the fact that I want to push the rep button twice for one person without pushing it God-knows-how-many times for others in between just sucks and it promotes the absurdity and meaninglessness of the button to begin with, because if you want to use the button, you have to give rep to a bunch of people you don't want to, just so you can give it to one person you do want to give it to.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

I don't know why the rep wouldn't be working. What browsers are y'all using?

The thing about rep vs. thanks is that rep is a built in vBulletin feature, and thanks isn't. I think there's a vbul hack that will allow you to give thanks, but remember, the more hacks/plugins/etc on the site, the more slowly it loads for everyone.

Personally -- I'm not speaking as a mod, here -- I don't see a problem with having the ability to leave negative feedback. I've never actually done it though. But it seems like the membership here is by and large mature enough to handle it.

Are you kidding? The membership here has by and large ultimately rejected any form of negative rep. People flip out when they get a negative rep, even if the neg rep was "deserved." I do not agree that this membership base is mature enough to handle neg rep. This membership base can't even handle curse words yet. In fact, they can't even handle the astericks that star out curse words. We've got a long way before we are mature enough to handle something like negative feedback.

[ZephyrusX]

Do you find that people reject negative criticism in general? What do you mean that the membership ultimately 'rejects' neg reps? I don't think having someone respond to you strongly in regards to negative criticism is necessarily a sign that they have rejected your point of view. They may integrate your perspective in a way that is meaningful to themselves. Of course, they are going to question criticism and challenge it a little. I'd be worried about the person if they didn't.

Having said that, if I actually felt strongly enough to criticize someone, I'd prefer to communicate openly about it. The rep field comment isn't actually the most conducive way of encouraging open discussion. A private message would do better if it warrants privacy or simply discussing the matter in the thread will do.

Originally Posted by James81

Are you kidding? The membership here has by and large ultimately rejected any form of negative rep. People flip out when they get a negative rep, even if the neg rep was "deserved." I do not agree that this membership base is mature enough to handle neg rep. This membership base can't even handle curse words yet. In fact, they can't even handle the astericks that star out curse words. We've got a long way before we are mature enough to handle something like negative feedback.

[ZephyrusX]

Nah!

Originally Posted by cacheborn

Okay, I just tried and I could rep everyone above me except Zeph. Sorry, Zeph.

I think the rep program is not linear in the sense if you rep someone frequently, it may become slightly difficult to rep him/her many times. The way I do it is I give them freely to anyone and everyone, they are like hugs.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by James81

Are you kidding? The membership here has by and large ultimately rejected any form of negative rep. People flip out when they get a negative rep, even if the neg rep was "deserved." I do not agree that this membership base is mature enough to handle neg rep. This membership base can't even handle curse words yet. In fact, they can't even handle the astericks that star out curse words. We've got a long way before we are mature enough to handle something like negative feedback.

I've only seen one or maybe two people flip out when they get negative rep. I'm not going to judge the whole community by the reactions of a few. In fact, I think seeing so few people flip out over it is a good sign. And when I say that we're mature enough to handle it, I mean giving as well as receiving -- again, I haven't seen many people go leaving negative rep willy-nilly, just to do it.

The hearts instead of asterisks is just a joke. It's not because people "couldn't handle the asterisks." It's just cute.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

I'm not Joke. I don't enjoy it though. Somehow I think there's a way of being positive about negative things you say. Rep doesn't mean much but a neg rep kinda feels like a rebuke, which doesn't feel like a nice way of getting a message across.

My initial reaction to someone saying something like that is, "what are we, eight?"

"Nice" is overrated. Sometimes you need people to sink their teeth in you in order to grow-and even if you don't deserve it it's an opportunity to examine and strengthen yourself.

It's not really anyone else's call to make, whether you need that or you don't, but as this is a public, growth oriented forum I think it serves a very important purpose. If we made this a smaller, more focused community it would probably be wise to disable the feature, but in the mixing pot that exists now I'd say anything that isn't an outright personal attack or vulgar beyond reason should be allowed.

I can say, in my own experience, that when I've felt great there's often been no drive to examine myself. It's when I get a boot to the face that I pause and think about things, and explore those feelings I'd previously ignored. I'm getting better about being proactive with that but I'd be lying through my teeth if I said the 'bad' feelings those instances invoked weren't instrumental in my progress.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

I've had at least two negative rep things given to me, but each one was accompanied by a positive comment about the post I made that was repped.

I don't like that I'm not allowed to give a rep to someone just because I recently gave that person one. I rarely ever push that button, so it actually means something if I do it, so the fact that I want to push the rep button twice for one person without pushing it God-knows-how-many times for others in between just sucks and it promotes the absurdity and meaninglessness of the button to begin with, because if you want to use the button, you have to give rep to a bunch of people you don't want to, just so you can give it to one person you do want to give it to.

One thing I'm wondering-could we switch it to a timer instead of forcing people to pass rep out? It's not that hard for me to find an adequate number of posts to rep, and if I'm serious about giving kudos to someone for a post they made there's plenty of abandoned accounts I can dump rep onto to free it up for them, but I'd much rather not have to do that. A timer of two weeks to a month between reps for one person seems perfectly reasonable to me so long as it wouldn't require some complicated hack to make it work.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Cado

My initial reaction to someone saying something like that is, "what are we, eight?"

"Nice" is overrated. Sometimes you need people to sink their teeth in you in order to grow-and even if you don't deserve it it's an opportunity to examine and strengthen yourself.

It's not really anyone else's call to make, whether you need that or you don't, but as this is a public, growth oriented forum I think it serves a very important purpose. If we made this a smaller, more focused community it would probably be wise to disable the feature, but in the mixing pot that exists now I'd say anything that isn't an outright personal attack or vulgar beyond reason should be allowed.

I can say, in my own experience, that when I've felt great there's often been no drive to examine myself. It's when I get a boot to the face that I pause and think about things, and explore those feelings I'd previously ignored. I'm getting better about being proactive with that but I'd be lying through my teeth if I said the 'bad' feelings those instances invoked weren't instrumental in my progress.

Huh. Well that's a pretty polar opposite philosophy to mine.

I think we can grow from anything. I agree a boot in the face can be a learning experience, but for me to go looking for a boot in the face is nothing but masochism. A proper response would be, "OK, I'm going to learn what this boot is telling me, and I'm also going to learn to listen to what's happening in life so that I don't need boots to keep coming to teach me."

Boots in the face first of all mean that you need to learn to learn. And if boots are the only way you have to get a message across, that in the same way means you need to learn to teach.

God damn, I understand the philosophy of not cringing from pain but to go out and look for unecessary pain just sounds like madness to me.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

God damn, I understand the philosophy of not cringing from pain but to go out and look for unecessary pain just sounds like madness to me.

I completely agree. I'm saying that it's not a bad thing when it happens, and that always trying to prevent it isn't the best course of action, either.

Conflict is going to happen in an environment like this. Do we always handle it and each other with kid gloves? Ultimately it weakens us and enables people to overlook things that are staring them right in the face.

I'm not going to willingly inflict pain on myself without a purpose, but I will stop and take inventory when somebody taps a sensitive spot.

[Cado]

There's also the subject of fear and courage-a lot of people will hesitate to share their thoughts because of the backlash they think it will stir. Any feedback, positive and negative, is extremely helpful. One directly bolsters confidence, the other inoculates you to the ire of others over time.

If you've got big plans or big ambitions, or even if you just want enlightenment, somebody's gonna ride your ass. This kind of environment is a perfect testing ground because the potential consequences are constrained by the medium. You get used to saying what you think here where anyone can see it and respond, it gets easier to say it in front of people who are sitting across the room from you. That is a situation where welcoming a bit of pain in the short term pays dividends in the long run.

[Andrew Gubb]

Fair enough, though I'm not sure all of your points need reflect on the rep discussion. It's not like neg rep has never been an indispensable communication aid. If anything, it encourages lazy communication (neg rep and we're done - no explanation needed).

It's not like I care that much, though. It's just rep.

I wonder if this is really a discussion about my own sensitivity. In which case I can say: sure, I could learn to have thicker skin.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Fair enough, though I'm not sure all of your points need reflect on the rep discussion. It's not like neg rep has never been an indispensable communication aid. If anything, it encourages lazy communication (neg rep and we're done - no explanation needed).

Yeah, I can see your point there. With the rep system you can argue it's meaningless or that it's valuable feedback and either side has a case; it's hard to feel strongly about it either way, I just know that I wouldn't disable neg reps on the basis that, if nothing else, it flushes out people who are oversensitive and probably wouldn't be a good fit for the forum. (Or people who are complete and total douches but are too scared to put it out in the open.)

I wonder if this is really a discussion about my own sensitivity. In which case I can say: sure, I could learn to have thicker skin.

That wasn't my intention.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Cado

Yeah, I can see your point there. With the rep system you can argue it's meaningless or that it's valuable feedback and either side has a case; it's hard to feel strongly about it either way, I just know that I wouldn't disable neg reps on the basis that, if nothing else, it flushes out people who are oversensitive and probably wouldn't be a good fit for the forum. (Or people who are complete and total douches but are too scared to put it out in the open.)

Lol. Flushes out. That, or it causes sensitive people some slight unnecessary discomfort with no actual upside which couldn't be gotten from talking in a thread or via PM.

But really it is such a "whatever" topic that I'm not sure it's even worth continuing to type about it.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Lol. Flushes out. That, or it causes sensitive people some slight unnecessary discomfort with no actual upside which couldn't be gotten from talking in a thread or via PM.

"No actual upside" hinges entirely on the individual and whether or not they'll put the experience to good use. I'd say, based on times when I was oversensitive or I was dealing with/observing someone who was, usually the thing that sets them off is what they need the most, which is why I argue that neg rep can be quite valuable.

And to clarify the terminology-"flush them out." I say that because when someone is oversensitive it's not just a case of them blowing their own problems out of proportion, they want to make their problem your problem. There's a lack of personal responsibility and it's good to know that about a person, especially if it happens early on.

On the other hand, if the only way someone can communicate their displeasure is through a biting negative rep, then they've proven they're not worth talking to. From a certain perspective they've done the person they've neg repped a favor; that person knows not to waste their time with them. There's a lot of complex social dynamics at work, as well as many ways something as small as this can be used constructively. This is very much a case where, "it is what you make it."

[James81]

I've never seen a forum and a group of people who

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

But really it is such a "whatever" topic that I'm not sure it's even worth continuing to type about it.

I hope that you don't feel that way about starting the thread. I think this has been a useful discussion. It never occurred to me before that some people might want to see negative rep done away with; just having that in mind is worthwhile.

Originally Posted by James81

I've never seen a forum and a group of people who

what?? what???? You can't leave me hanging like that, James...

[James81]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

what?? what???? You can't leave me hanging like that, James...

Haha, my phone chopped off the rest of the message. That's awesome.

[cacheborn]

I have negative repped only once, to James and if I remember correctly, he was not at all happy about it.

[James Fletcher]

Negative reps? To me there's nothing negative about them. Whenever I get one, it means I must be doing something right.

For a long while there was sort of a clique on these forums. By clique, I mean a group of very frequent posters who had a bit of a habit of stating their opinions as objective fact, on all manner of topics, and if anyone said anything different or disagreed with them many others would rush to the clique member's defense and silence the dissenter. Of course it happens on many forums.

That's why I believe the status quo should always be pushed, within the forum guidelines, of course. New and challenging ideas prevent stagnation.