The Big SR Sticking Point

[Max Power]

It seems there is a common confusion about a certain part of SR theory. I know it stumbles me further down the rabbit hole and it seems to make some people angry while they try to grasp SR. I like the idea of SR as it makes sense of many things I’ve wondered about, but I also seem to have the same issue understanding a certain part of it.

Who is the conscious one?

The premise of SR theory, well Steve’s version of it, is that I am consciousness, the only consciousness and that I (as consciousness) create everything in my reality including my own body/mind etc, other people (yes you too) are just further projections of my consciousness.

Now people get angry when you say this because they say “but how can you be the only conscious one, because I think that too” Steve’s SR theory seems to be very specific about consciousness being yours and yours alone (actually mine and mine alone) but then he says this………

"Now both of us know whose reality this really is, don't we? Whichever one of us is the conscious being here." - Steve in podcast 'the true nature of reality'

Is this confusing to you? Does it seem to contradict his version of SR?

Is Steve saying it’s all me, but from your POV it’s all you? which does contradict the ‘there is only one consciousness' angle. If I’m truly the only conscious being here, then you all are a part of my consciousness created by my consciousness, but it’s my consciousness, not yours because you don't have a consciousness, you're a projection, like me, but from my consciousness.

I know I’m the only one out of 6 billion that has my perspective, my awareness, but can it really be that you (all of you) are just a creation of my true self? Maybe I do not understand it correctly, maybe I’m missing something. If you have a clearer definition about consciousness and who it’s truly centered on, I’d like to hear it.

Please don’t respond if you dislike SR theory and it makes you angry and/or if you feel all us SR proponents are delusional, I’m not looking for a fight, just a better understanding.

Peace

Max

[Rosie]

Hey Max,

I have found myself confused about the same things. I think that what he means is there is one consciousness that we all share. Each and everyone of us comes from that one consciousness, and it is all equally all of us. In a sense we are all that one consciousness. So, other people are no less conscious than you are and visa versa. Our true identity is consciousness, and we are all projections of that one consciousness. So, no I don't think he means that you and you alone are conscious. That would solipsism, which is also a disorder: solpsism disorder - when a person feels he or she is the only conscious being on the planet. Steve states many times that he IS conscious.....that would rule out you being the only conscious person. I hope this helps?

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by Max Power

If you have a clearer definition about consciousness and who it’s truly centered on, I’d like to hear it.

It seems to be centered on everyone, or every center.

Look at it this way.
Picture a line that extends forever, with no end. Any point you measure will always be the center, because the line never ends.

In other words. If you have a line that has a definite length, (non-infinite) you know that any point you pick is not at center. There is only one point that will be the center.

But an infinite line, any point you pick will be the center, because there is no determined point at the end of the line to measure against.

(I found a website that said it clearer, but I can't find it now.)

Here's another one. Draw a circle, anywhere on the circlular line that you've drawn will be the middle of that line.

Personally I don't think there is 'one consciousness'.
In any infinite system, the center is everywhere.

[Ree]

I read an analogy recently that worked for me. Picture consciousness as a circular piece of rope. Now, picture various knots in that rope. Those knots are individual beings who come (knots are tied) and go (knots are untied) but the rope itself never changes.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Rosie

Hey Max,

I have found myself confused about the same things. I think that what he means is there is one consciousness that we all share. Each and everyone of us comes from that one consciousness, and it is all equally all of us. In a sense we are all that one consciousness. So, other people are no less conscious than you are and visa versa. Our true identity is consciousness, and we are all projections of that one consciousness. So, no I don't think he means that you and you alone are conscious. That would solipsism, which is also a disorder: solpsism disorder - when a person feels he or she is the only conscious being on the planet. Steve states many times that he IS conscious.....that would rule out you being the only conscious person. I hope this helps?

I can understand that we are all projections of the one consciousness, equally sharing the same reality, but Steve continually refers to one consciousness which is yours/mine/his and everything is a projection from that one consciousness centered on you/me/him.

See, that seems to contradict itself. There's only one consciousness and it's mine, but you have one too?? That just doesn't make sense. He consistantly refers to everyone else as projections of his/mine/your consciousness, but there is only one and it is only centered on one person?? More contradiction??

How can one consiousness be mine, all mine, thereby making everything a projection of my consciousness, but then everyone else has a consciousness and I'm a projection of their consciousness??? Steve say's he is the only conscious one here, but from my POV it's the other way around, he is my projection. So are we all parts of the one consciousness, creating each other as we individually require each other??

I have yet to see anyone explain this so it makes sense for us dummies Maybe a 'SR for Dummies' book is required

Max

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by Ree

I read an analogy recently that worked for me. Picture consciousness as a circular piece of rope. Now, picture various knots in that rope. Those knots are individual beings who come (knots are tied) and go (knots are untied) but the rope itself never changes.

Right I see the analogy. It's interesting.

But then that does mean an extinction of personal consciousness........ (when the knot unties.)

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Ree

I read an analogy recently that worked for me. Picture consciousness as a circular piece of rope. Now, picture various knots in that rope. Those knots are individual beings who come (knots are tied) and go (knots are untied) but the rope itself never changes.

We're all part of the one consciousness, great! We interact with each other, fine! we're all equally connected, sure!, but the references to consciousness being all there is and it's centered on me and everything else including Steve and you, are projections from my consciousness, seems to imply that I am consciousness and no one else is.

Steve is very specific about, no one else has thoughts but me, no one is conscious but me, then he says............."Now both of us know whose reality this really is, don't we? Whichever one of us is the conscious being here."

Well who is?? Steve does not say we are all conscious, he says it's me, but then says he's conscious??

I'm not being critical of Steve, I like the idea of SR and just want to grasp it better. I can believe whatever I want to believe, I know that, but it's Steve's explanation that is confusing. Is he being cryptic?? Does he not really know what to believe?? Does he not understand SR??

I'm just looking for clarification of Steve's SR theory, not explanations of consciousness etc.

Thanks and Peace

Max

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Ree

I read an analogy recently that worked for me. Picture consciousness as a circular piece of rope. Now, picture various knots in that rope. Those knots are individual beings who come (knots are tied) and go (knots are untied) but the rope itself never changes.

That's an interesting way to look at it, but it doesn't define ownership of consciousness. Steve's version of SR places ownership with you and only you or me and only me or him and only him.

This is the contradiction and confusion I refer too.

Max

[Rosie]

When he says that everything is a projection of your consciousness, he is reffering the the consciousness that belongs to all of us, and we all identify with. When he says that people aren't conscious, he means everyone including you aren't conscious. Only consciousness can be conscious.

[Ree]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Right I see the analogy. It's interesting.

But then that does mean an extinction of personal consciousness........ (when the knot unties.)

I believe there is consciousness and there is Consciousness. Personal consciousness is absorbed into Consciousness as the knot unties. There is really no difference, except that we are currently aware of consciousness and unaware of Consciousness. The purpose of enlightenment is to become aware of Consciousness.

If I am a knot on the rope of Consciousness, the little knot that is me has its own form of consciousness which is NOT aware of Consciousness. However, the rope of Consciousness is aware of everything, including my little knot of personal consciousness. I believe the little knot that is me loses personal consciousness when it becomes untied, but through enlightenment will be able to obtain Consciousness and will also regain personal consciousness.

[absvan]

Alright people, let me take a shot at explaining Steve's SR. Well there is no Steve's SR. There is just one SR, an ancient philosophy which orgininated in India a long time ago. Its called Advaita Vedanta or Nonduality in the west.

There is only one consciousness and we are all a part of that consciousness......so there is no you,me and I as separate. We are all one. But our ego and the mind makes us feel and think that we are separate. We have separate bodies, color of our skin, race etc etc.....This happens because the true nature of reality is hidden by an idea called MAYA which is translated as "dream". The world is a dream and we all are sleeping.

How can we know that we are all one ---- through meditation and searching within..... when you will finally reach a stage (which I presume is enlightenment) you would know that there is no separate you or him or me. Thats is the stage when you truly wake up and realize that life is/was a dream. In fact you cannot say "I am not" because there is no "I am not". Its all I or "Consciousness" or "Oneness". THE OBSERVER IS ALSO THE ONE OBSERVED.

Now when Steve says only "I" am conscious, he is both the observer and the one observed and everybody else including me and you and the girl next door are unreal. Its like watching a movie for him and we are all characters in the movie. Steve in this context is the "I" or the "Concsciousness"...not the body and not the person who maintains this site. So Steve cannot say, you, him etc...

As a simple example, if you take 10 glasses of water from an ocean, we can identify the the water because they are in the glasses. But if you pour them back into the ocean, can you say that this water is from glass 1 and this is from glass 2??? You can just say water....the same water. Here the ocean is what Steve refers to as I - "Oneness". Now again, when I say "I", its not the body but the consciousness. Anything identified as body is unreal a.ka. Maya.

So tomorrow if I reach the stage of enlightment , I would know that I am the only one that is real and Steve and you and Salma Hayek are all Maya. DANG!!!!......

Hope that makes sense.

[Dive Bomb]

I wonder then who's the dreamer dreaming all of us up? When we die do we wake up as someone else? This is all too weird.

[Max Power]

Steve consistantly, through his podcast and his SR Q&A says that you are the only conscious being here, you are the only one having thoughts and he even states that he is just a projection of your consciousness.

So SR as Steve explains it means that the person reading his text and listening to his podcast is the only conscious one, there is only one consciousness and it's yours, he says that repeatedly.

This contradicts anyone saying that everyone is conscious and everyone is consciousness. Honestly, I am yet to read anyone explain it in simple terms who is the conscious one here. We all are?? Only you are?? No one is??

From a 'living your life' POV I suppose it's not that important, but it's intruiging to consider just exactly what is true.

Max

[ethereal]

Everyone is conscious. But our true identity is not our consciousness, it is the infinite I of the Self that is reflected in everybody's consciousnesses as the awareness of existence, which we mistakenly attribute to our individual consciousness.

The part of you that is aware of "I-ness" is the same as everyone else's, which is why we are all One. But our consciousness/life/soul is individually our "own", although with deep spiritual work you see that consciousness goes on by itself without "your" intervention at all, because you are not your consciousness, you are what is aware of your consciousness.

[haider]

Hello all (i.e. me :P),

I find the discussion of subjective reality extremely interesting, because it exposes a lot of the thinking that goes to justify the theory. And it becomes even more interesting when subjectivists try to highlight the abundant blessings of believing in subjectivism, but ignore its devastating consequences.

For one thing, if you wish to fully accept subjectivism (as Steve attempts to do), you will have to throw away over half of Steve's posts, because they are based on an objective-premise. Paraliminals work on the premise that the brain functions a certain way, whether you like it or not. The Law of Attraction itself is based on the idea that: this is what the world is like, so learn to accept it.

This exposes the internal contradiction subjectivism has. It cannot be explained without resorting to an objective view of reality. But, of course, a subjectivist would resort to the explanation: this is because we have become accustomed to thinking objectively, and we have to free ourselves from this indoctrination!

Although many can argue for subjective reality, and seem convinced by what they are saying, what they are resorting to (and MUST resort to) is reasoning beyond the realm of evidence. Logic, in itself, is consistency between statements. But if these statements are false, regardless of how strong the logical connection between the statements is, the reasoning is false.

For example: Betty is a pig, all pigs fly. Therefore, Betty can fly.

This is as logical as statements get. But can pigs fly? The answer is no, unless you wish to strain your brain into accepting otherwise (even then, it only becomes a figment of your imagination that they do fly). Justification of subjectivism may be logically sound, but that's because the statements are consistent with themselves, and not with reality (the benchmark being denied by the subjectivists).

If we resort to such an attitude, then we can justify any belief under the sun, and beyond!

Analyse the explanations of subjectivism, and you will realise some common traits, namely:

1) Denial of the mind and sensory experience, and reliance on meditation (i.e. coming up with ideas not connected to reality or evidence, but wishful thinking)

2) Casting doubt on language (because the meaning of subjectivism cannot be bound by words, when language is the tool we use for thinking)

3) Reliance on analogies (proof by analogy is a logical fallacy, and can be used to justify anything. e.g. a dictator is like a caring father, who does not want his children making the wrong decisions; believing in x number of Gods is like the drops of the ocean, which all merge together as one; religions are like the sides of a geometrical shape, etc, etc)

4) Offering a subjective explanation to experiences that can easily be explained objectively (if you want to be successful and happen to become successful, it's not your wishful thinking but the actions you took and attitude you had which led to your success).

There are several other traits that emerge depending on the strand of subjectivism being followed.

I apologise if I sound too harsh, but I see subjectivism as being an essentially destructive philosophy, which tends to get me worked up.

If any subjectivist *is* offended by what I said, don't blame me, blame yourself! :P

[Max Power]

For one thing, if you wish to fully accept subjectivism (as Steve attempts to do), you will have to throw away over half of Steve's posts, because they are based on an objective-premise.

He actually says (somewhere) that he accepts all beliefs SR/OR whatever to help people who believe in one thing but not others.

The Law of Attraction itself is based on the idea that: this is what the world is like, so learn to accept it.

Actually I think the LoA is a system of what you think about most is attracted to you, so that would be the opposite of what you say here.

Although many can argue for subjective reality, and seem convinced by what they are saying, what they are resorting to (and MUST resort to) is reasoning beyond the realm of evidence.

That pretty much applies to ever religion and every fundamental belief system of reality no??

I like the premise of SR, it seems to make a lot of sense (for me) but I do have trouble defining consciousness/awareness and the concept/reality of other people. I suppose it's really a pointless exercise. It's too personal to define by forum or group, it's just something I have to resolve on a belief level and continue.

Max

[absvan]

Originally Posted by ethereal

Everyone is conscious. But our true identity is not our consciousness, it is the infinite I of the Self that is reflected in everybody's consciousnesses as the awareness of existence, which we mistakenly attribute to our individual consciousness.

I concur.

Only our awareness is real. Again your awareness, mine and Steve's are all the same. There is no separate. What makes us to think it as separate is Maya.

So I think when Steve says that you are the only one conscious here, he means that your atman/self/awareness is the only thing that is real and everything else is unreal/projections. According to me LOA exists only in an objective world where we things like cars, house, money and materials are given form - which from Advaita perspective are unreal.

Now I dont know if Steve has created his own version of SR to understand LOA. I think we need to invite Steve to this thread for more info....else the confusion will just continue into more threads.

[mysterygal]

Max, you say that your question is too personal and complicated for a forum thread. I tend to disagree. Your question is extremely simple. Are other people conscious? The answer is YES, they are. I am conscious, Steve is conscious, everyone reading and writing in these forums are conscious. You are not the only conscious human being on the planet. Steve stated many times that other people are conscious, but the way he worded his posts made it seem like they weren't.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by mysterygal

Max, you say that your question is too personal and complicated for a forum thread. I tend to disagree. Your question is extremely simple. Are other people conscious? The answer is YES, they are. I am conscious, Steve is conscious, everyone reading and writing in these forums are conscious. You are not the only conscious human being on the planet. Steve stated many times that other people are conscious, but the way he worded his posts made it seem like they weren't.

See, this just creates more confusion and makes me think Steve is super intelligent and can't dumb it down for everyone to understand or he doesn't really understand it at all.

I say it's too personal because it is. You say you're conscious and everyone is, but Steve says blatanly that is not true, you are the only conscious being here. A few people agree on one thing and a few say the other. I've read posts totally agreeing with Steve, others think he's a lunatic. that's why I say it's too personal, it's a never ending argument that can never be resolved.

If Steve has stated many times that other people are conscious, then he has indeed contradicted himself big time. Read his SR Q&A, those are his words and they say that no one else is conscious but you and in his podcast it's the same thing. We're all conscious but only you are??? Is that not just one big contradiction???

I think it's great Steve is trying to help people with their personal development and SR is just a way to look at your reality, but it's the contradictions that frustrate people, me included.

You say I'm not the only conscious one here, how do I know that?? You can't prove it, you could be right in front of me, yelling at me, saying that we are both conscious, but that is hardly evidence. I could be so powerful that I create you entirely as I see fit. Now I'm not saying that's true, but just because you say something is true and can't prove it, then why should I believe you??

From a life and IM POV, it's not that important. IM is still LoA and SR is a seperate POV of reality, even Jesus talks about IM and LoA, I just don't find Steve stating beliefs about who is conscious and then other beliefs that are contradictary to be very helpful.

Maybe it's more of a classification about consciousness that's needed, I'm thinking that awareness and self perception may be better building blocks for personal identifiaction other than coonsciousness.

Still, I don't really know what the bleep is truly going on

Max

[mysterygal]

I am 100% conscious. You are 100% conscious. We can't prove these statements to each other, but we both know that we are. If you are really confused, you should ask Steve what he mean't. Then post his answer on the thread for everyone to see. When Steve said that only you are conscious, he mean't that from a total subjective point of view. But he himself states that he does not follow subjective reality 100%. It is simply one of his many beliefs that he uses.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by ethereal

Everyone is conscious. But our true identity is not our consciousness, it is the infinite I of the Self that is reflected in everybody's consciousnesses as the awareness of existence, which we mistakenly attribute to our individual consciousness.

The part of you that is aware of "I-ness" is the same as everyone else's, which is why we are all One. But our consciousness/life/soul is individually our "own", although with deep spiritual work you see that consciousness goes on by itself without "your" intervention at all, because you are not your consciousness, you are what is aware of your consciousness.

We are all conscious, but what I really am is awareness of that consciousness, my true self, true being is the awareness.

Interesting

Max