The Big SR Sticking Point

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Hoppipola

No such thing as humans, I read that in solipsism too!

"If solipsism is true, then practically all standards for moral behavior would seem to be meaningless, according to this argument. There is no God, so that basis for morality is gone, but even secular humanism becomes meaningless since there are no such things as other humans. Everything and everyone else is just a figment of imagination, so there's no particular reason not to make these figments disappear by, say, mass annihilation."


Hahaha, I just realized something too!
All these people are saying "I don't exist, I was made up by you. So you're saying my mind made you up. But you obviously had to make me up. Then isn't there a third party involved? We cancel out each other, or it's just a never ending chain of either I thought you up, or you thought me up.
:3

SR doesn't say that human beans are not real. I'm a real human bean, people I met on the street and people in my life are real human beans, but none of the human beans are conscious or consciousness.

Consciousness exists while you're sleeping and it doesn't need a human bean to do so, most people think sleep is when the human mind dreams, but those same people also think they are human beans having a consciousness, when it's actually the other way around (IMO) this approach to human bean existance is useful for it places creativity with thought and choice and it also stops you competing with other human beans

A belief system is useless if it doesn't empower you.

Max

[theknightwhosaysni-NI]

Originally Posted by Max Power

SR doesn't say that human beans are not real. I'm a real human bean
Max

lol, it's funny you say human bean not "being".

I am of the the human rice. Together we can be human rice and bean.

[Advent Shade]

A belief system is useless if it doesn't empower you.

*Yawn*

Does the story of the Good Samaritan empower Christians in any way? I can't imagine it does, not to any great extent at least. But by believing in it, it empowers the human race, as a Christian who believes in such a story to the point where they emulate it will pass on good will and aid wherever they pass.

It empowers the human race.

Oh and I love the way you use 'bean' too lol. In a way it's kind of cute. Reminds me of something a little kid would say. Not that I'm insinuating anything with that

[deepfried]

*clears throat*

Unaccustomed as I am to public speaking...

As far as my delvings into consciousness can tell... consciousness is binding to us all, in so much that we are all the same consciousness. Within that consciousness is our ego's/the world, and for me seperation is simply a way for us to know each other, and therefore get to know our consciousness.

I think the ego world is a dramatisation that allows us to understand our true nature, but seperation has gone too far and we believe the drama, similar to Platos cave. In that framework, the LoA and other beliefs are a projection of an ego mind, but are useful in understanding the cave in which we dwell and our true nature

For me, reality is subjective, but to consciousness. Not you, me, or Steve. A big mistake is that we assume that the ego mind is the creator (soliphism), when in fact consciousness is.
That is not to say that there are conflicting interests in consciousness, since abundence is universal we can all have/manifest the same things without infringing upon another. After all, we have everything we want already. Therefore, belief changes and changes in perception can bring about *anything*.

To create, all we need to do is lock into the interface of consciousness and place our order, simple as that. Consciousness is *HUGE*, and can easily encompass all beliefs, all ideas, all realities. Subjective reality should really be called Subjective Realities.

In reality we all occupy an infinate number of different holodecks in the same simulation, connected by a network of sorts. Subjective reality is true for my holodeck, but not necessarily for yours. In a nutshell, we're all the same being and have an equal access to consciousness, and to our world.

I hope this is relevant. Thanks for listening!

[SecretSeven]

good reply deep fried!

[Hoppipola]

Originally Posted by Max Power

SR doesn't say that human beans are not real. I'm a real human bean, people I met on the street and people in my life are real human beans, but none of the human beans are conscious or consciousness.

Consciousness exists while you're sleeping and it doesn't need a human bean to do so, most people think sleep is when the human mind dreams, but those same people also think they are human beans having a consciousness, when it's actually the other way around (IMO) this approach to human bean existance is useful for it places creativity with thought and choice and it also stops you competing with other human beans

A belief system is useless if it doesn't empower you.

Max

Ohhh, that actually could make sense considering YOU can only prove YOUR mind exists. And because I can't prove that your conscious mind exists, I have to either assume that it does, it doesn't, or I or something else makes it exist (or seem to).

We'll all find out sooner or later :P

Oh, and this is philosophy right? Not like a religion or anything, I presume?


Oh and @ Deepfried; I like the last statement, that would make much more sense to me, personally.
I'm catholic though.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Hoppipola

I'm catholic though.

And there is your faith.

I started this thread 3 months ago, but like all paths they always lead back to self.

For the longest time I would not believe it.......until I saw it with my own eyes............thought (a very unphysical thing) creates every physical thing.......How???......

Sounds cryptic right?.............only if you can't believe it's true.

Max

[Hoppipola]

Well... in a sense, yes thought can create. Like imagination, motivation, hope and determination? The good, pure thoughts that drive us every day (hopefully) to help us create good results!

Like writing a poem off thoughts,
or art,
or wanting a family and a child...
it all originates from thoughts, ideas.
Which then leads into religion-- various ideas that inspire certain people!

There's a boundary to all this "thought creates whatever you want" stuff right? I mean, I'm sure i'm not the only one who would love to have something amazing happen in this mundane world; like magic or something.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Hoppipola

There's a boundary to all this "thought creates whatever you want" stuff right? I mean, I'm sure i'm not the only one who would love to have something amazing happen in this mundane world; like magic or something.

There is order in the natural universe, and limits exist which define that order. Things go wrong when those limits are breached, including when we try to breach them.

It's natural to want to go beyond those limits without suffering the consequences, and it's understandable that some people believe they can go beyond those limits if the desire to do so is strong enough. Of course that doesn't make it possible.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

There is order in the natural universe, and limits exist which define that order. Things go wrong when those limits are breached, including when we try to breach them.

It's natural to want to go beyond those limits without suffering the consequences, and it's understandable that some people believe they can go beyond those limits if the desire to do so is strong enough. Of course that doesn't make it possible.

That is why people can't fly. Imagine if you could instantly manifest anything including super powers, your entire world would spiral out of control.

Instant manifestation is for when we're back in full gode mode, the point of this game isn't to have all of our god powers, but to envoke some of them at will to build a desireable reality, but at the same time have a level of randomness about it.

I'd imagine that being god is rather boring, once you've created everything instantly 24/7 where's the challenge???.......hence the limited physical reality and your human bean.

Max

[Hoppipola]

Originally Posted by Max Power

That is why people can't fly. Imagine if you could instantly manifest anything including super powers, your entire world would spiral out of control.

Instant manifestation is for when we're back in full gode mode, the point of this game isn't to have all of our god powers, but to envoke some of them at will to build a desireable reality, but at the same time have a level of randomness about it.

I'd imagine that being god is rather boring, once you've created everything instantly 24/7 where's the challenge???.......hence the limited physical reality and your human bean.

Max

Exactly! It's how I think. You can't have good, without the bad. Can't have sad without happy, or having fun without being bored.
Like for my religion, I'm supposed to believe that I will spend eternity happy in the Kingdom of God.
But won't eternally happy = neutral, because of the lack of 'negative' feelings?

It's fun to just challenge all this stuff.
And it makes me sad that our reality isn't exciting. It's just really pathetic and war-filled.

But anyway..
it'd be cool to just think up stuff
I guess that's what Lucid dreaming si for.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Hoppipola

Exactly! It's how I think. You can't have good, without the bad. Can't have sad without happy, or having fun without being bored.
Like for my religion, I'm supposed to believe that I will spend eternity happy in the Kingdom of God.
But won't eternally happy = neutral, because of the lack of 'negative' feelings?

You're thinking like a human. Who's to say what a god feels like? Do gods get bored? Are gods capable of being eternally happy? Couldn't gods be eternally challenged by their limitless abilities?

Originally Posted by Hoppipola

And it makes me sad that our reality isn't exciting. It's just really pathetic and war-filled.

Turn off the TV, put down the newspaper, and go live a little. Then maybe you'll see the wholesome excitement our reality has to offer.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

You're thinking like a human. Who's to say what a god feels like? Do gods get bored? Are gods capable of being eternally happy? Couldn't gods be eternally challenged by their limitless abilities?

Turn off the TV, put down the newspaper, and go live a little. Then maybe you'll see the wholesome excitement our reality has to offer.

For some reason people equate awesome power with something that can't be really simple. Why can't god (you) become completely bored or lonely and then invent a complete rich diverse physical reality, place an observer there and create 24/7 and experience the creation.

I'm not convinced god/consciousness is a complex thing in it's structure and nature by human definition. Maybe it's a really simple, really powerful thing, that is just having some fun.Everything in awareness is build instantly and maintained all day by consciousness for the sole purpose of experience for just that one day.

Humans can never go without sleep, why?...........because even consciousness needs a break from it's denser version of creation, physical reality. Maybe that's why you can never exist in the past of future, because everything is built today and today only including past and future. Somethings in the day exist already, some things are created during this day and some things are intended for this day..........

Hmmm, I'll have to consider this some more and write a detailed response to myself

Max

[Hoppipola]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

You're thinking like a human. Who's to say what a god feels like? Do gods get bored? Are gods capable of being eternally happy? Couldn't gods be eternally challenged by their limitless abilities?

Turn off the TV, put down the newspaper, and go live a little. Then maybe you'll see the wholesome excitement our reality has to offer.

Sorry for being realistic, Mark.
It's not that easy for everybody, you know. I mean I still have school to go through. I still have to get my license. (Damn NJ driver laws) I'm still young; I can't just leave everything behind, as much as I want to go out and see the world. Personally, I think life is just passing time until you die. And there are so many people out there who don't even know what fun or pleasure is, only of death or hunger... I'm sure they'd want something miraculous to happen too.

Well... Compare your favorite video game / book / fiction anything to the real life now. Which would you prefer?

I do photography and writing. Both show me the beauty of this world, despite death and sadness, and going out and living a little won't change the fact that nothing truly amazing can happen. Like something epic.
If you haven't noticed, most of middle class America basically have the same lifestyle. It's just something typical, and almost unavoidable for the norm! You know like college, the job, wife, family, Christmas dinners, birthdays, retirement etc. And all these other places have their own typical lifestyle that most of them go through. And that's it.

How about you, Mark? What makes you so different, unique? What makes this world, this reality so stunning and amazing?

Magic can't happen, space travel probably won't happen, flying or giant robot aliens, it can't.

P.S. Nobody knows what God or Heaven or eternity is like, so please don't refute my own thought The most you can do is guess really.

And what I was saying was... okay, so what if Gods can't get bored. So that must mean they'd be entertained 100% of the time. Also meaning they've never experienced boredom. So what is excitement when you cannot compare it to something less exciting; something boring? Would it not just be a neutral feeling?

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Max Power

Why can't god (you) become completely bored or lonely and then invent a complete rich diverse physical reality, place an observer there and create 24/7 and experience the creation.

God could, but then god might not need to do anything to experience creation. God might just need to think about it and in doing so know exactly what it's like, without anything actually happening. That thought might be something God can dwell in for a long time, as if It were truly experiencing it.

But you're right, maybe God did have to create all this. All I'm asking is that you don't forget that there are other possibilities.

Originally Posted by Hoppipola

Sorry for being realistic, Mark.

That's fatalism, not realism. But if you're a teenager then it's understandable, I was that way for far too long.

Originally Posted by Hoppipola

It's not that easy for everybody, you know. I mean I still have school to go through. I still have to get my license. (Damn NJ driver laws) I'm still young; I can't just leave everything behind, as much as I want to go out and see the world.

You don't have to go far. You don't even have to leave your state. You could just spend time with friends, or make some new ones, and talk about things that are important to you all. Or talk about nothing. And leave the negativity alone unless you're actually going to do something to make it better.

Originally Posted by Hoppipola

Personally, I think life is just passing time until you die. And there are so many people out there who don't even know what fun or pleasure is, only of death or hunger... I'm sure they'd want something miraculous to happen too.

It does no-one any good to compare situations, unless doing so leads to improvement. Otherwise you just end up justifying and reinforcing your own negativity.

Originally Posted by Hoppipola

Well... Compare your favorite video game / book / fiction anything to the real life now. Which would you prefer?

Heh, if I choose what I just watched I don't think you'd be happy. Zegapain, an anime set in a post-apocalyptic world. Almost all humans have been wiped out and the remaining ones are just data in a few quantum computers scattered around the remains of the Earth... I'd prefer real life

(btw it's a fun anime to watch if you want to see how they question what it means to be human, and what it means to be alive. But it's not very deep.)

Originally Posted by Hoppipola

I do photography and writing. Both show me the beauty of this world, despite death and sadness, and going out and living a little won't change the fact that nothing truly amazing can happen. Like something epic.

Looking for something more amazing causes you to compare what you've got with what you imagine you'd want. Something that doesn't exist. Does it make any sense to degrade your enjoyable experiences that way?

Originally Posted by Hoppipola

If you haven't noticed, most of middle class America basically have the same lifestyle. It's just something typical, and almost unavoidable for the norm! You know like college, the job, wife, family, Christmas dinners, birthdays, retirement etc. And all these other places have their own typical lifestyle that most of them go through. And that's it.

So? Doesn't mean you have to do the same... Look at Steve. He took a different path and look where he is now!

Originally Posted by Hoppipola

How about you, Mark? What makes you so different, unique? What makes this world, this reality so stunning and amazing?

I'm doing exactly what I want to be doing. Going back to uni, studying something I'm wholeheartedly interested in, something that I truly believe will help all of us. Psychology and Neuroscience. By understanding ourselves and each other more completely we can help each other, and even love each other more.

This world and this reality are stunning and amazing because there's always something new to learn, always someone new to meet, always somewhere new to visit, always something new to do. And if you get tired of chasing after novelty all the time you can sit and enjoy what you already have. Or share it with your friends.

Originally Posted by Hoppipola

Magic can't happen, space travel probably won't happen, flying or giant robot aliens, it can't.

Magic is another word for something cool we don't understand. Remote controls would look like magic to people of the distant past. Same with lighters, torches, laser pointers. Hell, even radios. Need I go on?

We used to think flying was impossible. Fast-forward a century or so and we're landing on the moon.

This universe is huge beyond most people's comprehension (yeah, mine too). You think we're alone in it?

Originally Posted by Hoppipola

P.S. Nobody knows what God or Heaven or eternity is like, so please don't refute my own thought The most you can do is guess really.

Exactly my point! The most we can do is guess, and our guessing will be based on our own experiences, which are human experiences. I highly doubt that a god would feel the same things humans do. But I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by Hoppipola

And what I was saying was... okay, so what if Gods can't get bored. So that must mean they'd be entertained 100% of the time. Also meaning they've never experienced boredom. So what is excitement when you cannot compare it to something less exciting; something boring? Would it not just be a neutral feeling?

To us, yes. Exactly my point again. Would it be the same to a god? Who knows...

But in the end, is there any point in asking these questions? Does it give you what you want from life?

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Hoppipola

Magic can't happen, space travel probably won't happen, flying or giant robot aliens, it can't.

...........and so it is true.

Max

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Max Power

...........and so it is true.

...except it's not.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

...except it's not.

Really?............Hoppo seems to think so.......

Whatever is true for you is true for you, just as it's so and possibly different for everyone else.

God: "Max not everyone believes what you believe"

Max: "My beliefs do not require them to"

[Mark Lapierre]

Yeah that was what I was hinting at