The Big SR Sticking Point

[absvan]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

absvan yo seem to have a lot of knowledge in this field. What I wonder is, I've heard a enlightened being and chose after death to merge with the eternal bliss or be reincarnated without karma to help the world.
Is this true or does a enlightened being automatically become nothing after death

Wow thats a very deep-interesting question. I dont know much about that cos I am still learning But you might want to read this link
Karma, Reincarnation ,Nonduality and Spirit

[DaveTyler]

The whole world is divine ocean of consciousness, individual consciousness is a jar in that ocean. So nope , you are not the creator

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Theres one universe, one god, 6 billion personalities, and perceptions...

And thats why you cannot fathom miracles.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by haider

* Removing things around you in your imagination doesn't remove them from reality. If you don't like me, I will still exist! You can ignore me, but that's not a nice thing to do :P (and I would still exist)

Yes it does. It removes them from your reality, not the reality.
They still exist, obviously, just not in your reality.

If you don't like someone, become neutral (disliking them keeps them in your reality) and stop thinking about them.

They will eventually not be in your reality.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by haider

I ultimately believe that subjectivism is destructive, and would hope that subjectivists entertain the possibility that subjectivism is not what it pretends to be, and to re-activate their minds, so that they can see reality for what it is...

haider, lets be clear on one thing.

Subjective perception is all you can do.
You cannot percieve Objectively.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Everyone is conscious and aware.
You cannot create yourself, you was made by your conscious parents.

Correction. Your physical body was created by your parents.

Did you parents create your 'I'?

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by Max Power

Who is the conscious one?

Originally Posted by absvan

ANSWER - You are the only one conscious.

Max is conscious, Dave is, Absvan, haider, I am, etc, etc.

We are all conscious in an infinite universe.

In an infinite universe, all things are infinite.

To say a one God (infinite Mind) exists, and we are lesser then that, is incorrect, because we are all infinite.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

The whole world is divine ocean of consciousness, individual consciousness is a jar in that ocean. So nope , you are not the creator

Existance is a divine ocean of individual consciousness.

The whole individual consciousness is a jar in that ocean is a physical idea trying to fathom an infinite concept and is incorrect.

Whoever came up with it, made a mistake.
I don't care who came up with it, they could be the "holiest" of "holiest".....it's still incorrect.

Commit this to memory.
In an infinite system, all things are infinite......therefore your personality and your individuality are infinite.

Are we all 'one'. Absolutely, but not in the way conventional teachings would have you think.

We are all 'one', but with distinct personalities, as heretical as that sounds.


Will we ever all merge into one "individual" (god, universal consciousness) ?
Of course not.

[Frans]

Originally Posted by haider

And if the universe is an aspect of you, as you say, then do you know and understand everything about you? If not, why is that? You will realise that there are factors beyond your control, which goes to prove that you're not the only existent in existence!!

As you assume that there are factors in my life beyond my control, I invite you to read my vision about reality.

[DaveTyler]

Infiniteethoughts, yeah individual perception.NOT universe.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Infiniteethoughts, yeah individual perception.NOT universe.

If that's your belief.

[absvan]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

In an infinite system, all things are infinite......

Things are an illusion. Its not real. Even in science its proved that you see it as matter due to the existence of an invisible force which can be called energy. So its energy which is infinite - cannot be created nor destroyed.

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

......therefore your personality and your individuality are infinite.

your personality and individuality exists only in your mind. What will happen if you suffer from lapses in memory?? You end up forgetting your own personality. So your statement is false.

[DaveTyler]

Im not sre if I believe personality is from the brain, cause in reincarnation your personality(soul) moves on life to life. Ofcourse it chanegs a bit but still

[absvan]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Im not sre if I believe personality is from the brain, cause in reincarnation your personality(soul) moves on life to life. Ofcourse it chanegs a bit but still

Whereas I think your personality is created by your mind. Your personality changes by your surroundings/thoughts/experiences.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by absvan

your personality and individuality exists only in your mind. What will happen if you suffer from lapses in memory?? You end up forgetting your own personality. So your statement is false.

....as you have purposefully forgotton your identity? In order to relish and savor the experience of limits in this realm.

[DaveTyler]

Personality changes, but not the inner you.
Ive witnessed coma victims with no memory left become the same person even if their brains was smashed in.
Theres been tests ofc kids who remember their pastlife who got IDENTICAL handwriting as the one theyve claimed to be in their pastlife.
Handwriting is unique to every individuals personality/soul.
Its kinda like 98% of EVERY part of your body is completely renewed in a 7year period but you still look the same all your life

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

The whole world is divine ocean of consciousness, individual consciousness is a jar in that ocean. So nope , you are not the creator

You saying something doesn't make it true and not only but also, you cannot prove anything you say regarding the statement above. You may believe it, but again where is the proof??

Consciousness/Awareness must come from the person perceiving it. I am that person, so I must be conscious and aware. No one else can be, because I can't percieve it. You can say you are conscious and aware all day long, but I would never believe it, for I am the only one who can perceive consciousness/awareness.

I started this thread with the question, who is the conscious one here?? The anwser can only ever be me, but that doesn't make me God, because God is an ego created name for power.

I cannot prove to you that I am consciousnes/awareness and that you are not, I can believe it but it may not make it true for you. All I know for sure is that I'm conscious and aware right now, anything and everything else is perception.

Max Power

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Everyone is conscious and aware.
You cannot create yourself, you was made by your conscious parents.
When you cant even create ************ in your reality, only perceptions, it kind of proves it all.

Dave, you make very bold statements littered with unprovable assumptions. I actually can create many manifestations on a daily basis, you'd probably say they were coincidences, but that's your opinion.

You say that you worry that people are thinking they are God, but God is an ego driven label for power from a physical reality POV. You admit above that I can only create perceptions. I can only percieve my consciousness and awareness. I cannot percieve yours or anyone else's therefore I am the only one who is conscious and aware.

I posed the question, who is the conscious one here, but I'm the only one who can truly answer that, but that hardly is an admission that I'm God.

Max Power

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Max Power

All I know for sure is that I'm conscious and aware right now, anything and everything else is perception.

...and beliefs and thoughts and opinions and ideas and all the other internal manifestations of consciousness. Of which perception is not. Interpretation of perception is, but perception itself is a faculty of the body. Unless of course you believe nothing but consciousness actually exists, and then perception is a faculty of consciousness. But then you wouldn't have equated everything but consciousness to perception.

[DaveTyler]

Listen, No coincedences doesn't occur, I dont believe that at all.
Cause and effect nothing can happen without a cause.
Probably yeah, u can make manifestations, good for you.But does that mean your the only conscious person in the world that can do so? No, see the problem with SR is that most people who read about it is very much in their ego, so its misunderstood.


To me its like this: Im conscious, I believe in consciousness coming from the crown chakra, not the brain.
Everyone got that. I am consciousness, not my brain, but I got a body, I got a mind. So yeah I can use my physical body and my mental mind. Ofcourse I can only control me and see my own thoughts.
What makes me anymore real than you though? I see you, your buildup exactly like me, why the hell wouldnt you be conscious too?

If you hadreachedthe last stage of enlightenment, you could say "I AM THE ONE" like Buddha did, but then your reality would be COMPLETELY different from the one your in now, in your current level of consciousness your not even able to imagine what buddha's reality was like.
So since your seeking this: otherwise Subjective reality makes no sense to even learn, I suggest you start reading more into Buddhism or similar concept instead of playing ego god and manifesting quarters on street corners.

[SecretSeven]

Honestly,

Max you are not the only conscious person. Just because you can't perceive other's consciousness, does not mean they don't exist. Just because you can't perceive the neurons, and synapsis in your brain, doesn't they don't exist. Since you are a limited being, it would make sense that your perceptions are limited.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by SecretSeven

Honestly,

Max you are not the only conscious person. Just because you can't perceive other's consciousness, does not mean they don't exist. Just because you can't perceive the neurons, and synapsis in your brain, doesn't they don't exist. Since you are a limited being, it would make sense that your perceptions are limited.

SecretSteven you sure have a lot of beliefs there that you're trying to get others to believe. I'm a limited being?? Really?? Are you sure?? How do you know?? Because you believe it so it must be true??

I think you're confusing what you see in the mirror with consciousness. Human bodies/minds/chairs/physcial reality are not consciounsess. If I claim to be conscious and/or am the only one who is, then it's from an awareness POV, it's not from an ego/human being POV.

People get upset about this because they think someone is claiming they're God, but that is not the premise.

Max

[absvan]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

....as you have purposefully forgotton your identity? In order to relish and savor the experience of limits in this realm.

Well I am not sure what you mean ..........

I am not purposefully forgetting anything......You claim that "in an infintie system everything is infinite and so is your personality and individuality". Sorry but that does not make sense at all. Only this universe is infinite. Anything related to form like people/things etc is finite esp personality and individuatlity which are highly susceptible to changes and they keep changing. Just because something keeps changing does not mean that its infinite.

As Max said above

I think you're confusing what you see in the mirror with consciousness.

, you need understand that statement. Stop relating the "I" with what you see in the mirror. Makes sense. See if none of what I have mentioed here makes sense to you, then its alright. If SR does not makese sense to you, its fine.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by absvan

Only this universe is infinite.

Well yeah, that makes sense(?).....infinity is only confined to 'this' universe.

-

[SecretSeven]

Max,

Why do you say that other people aren't conscious. If you are, then wouldn't it make sense that they are too.

[Lychee]

Yes it does. It removes them from your reality, not the reality.
They still exist, obviously, just not in your reality.

THE reality. What is THE reality? Objective reality. Not being able to perceive objectively, perhaps it isn't possible, is not the same as the nonexistence of an objective reality.

SecretSteven you sure have a lot of beliefs there that you're trying to get others to believe. I'm a limited being?? Really?? Are you sure?? How do you know?? Because you believe it so it must be true??

Because it's present everywhere. I said this in another thread, but if we were really unlimited, we would have NO problem whatsoever doing whatever we wanted, however we wanted. But people cannot become immortal on this earth. Everyone dies. However, if you say that we can, why are we having trouble achieving it? That is not a property of a "limitless" being.

[absvan]

Originally Posted by Lychee

Because it's present everywhere. I said this in another thread, but if we were really unlimited, we would have NO problem whatsoever doing whatever we wanted, however we wanted. But people cannot become immortal on this earth. Everyone dies. However, if you say that we can, why are we having trouble achieving it? That is not a property of a "limitless" being.

This is my take.

I believe that the body/mind that dies....and thats in an objective reality. But the whole point of SR is that you are not your body. So if I stop indentifying myself with my body and when I rise above my mind, I will know my true nature - which is I am consciousness. Thats when I realize that I am an unlimited being.

[haider]

It's refreshing to see some people believing in objective reality around here!

I think the primary fault in the arguments for SR in this thread is that they are based on a play on words.

For example, the distinction between "THE reality" and "my reality" is an incorrect distinction. "My reality" is a false label, and a misuse of the word "reality." If I don't like someone, and I choose to ignore him, he will still exist in reality. I can choose not to have him in my life by avoiding him, but this does not mean he does not exist in "my reality" (there is no such thing).

I can be ignorant of an aspect of reality (i.e. not know that it exists). This can easily be referred to as: ignorance. There is no need to say that it is absent from "my reality." It is absent from my awareness, but to refer to it as "reality" is a play on words to justify the belief in subjective reality. In other words, the only proof being given for the belief in subjective reality is the misuse of words!

------

Frans, to be honest, I don't see what your experiment proves.

You have to realise that experimentation is subject to interpretation, and you should be aware of, and open to, the possibility that you have misinterpreted the results of your experiment. You actually jump to conclusions a lot throughout the experiment. For one thing, you conclude that the only thing that exists after closing your eyes is your "I." But this is not true, even with your eyes are closed! Your entire experiment is based on your thoughts, which are driven by words and, therefore, language.

In other words, when your eyes are closed, you are left with: words, thoughts and your consciousness. But this "consciousness" is not simply your "I". The reason why you can make sense of your thoughts - and can carry out your thought experiment - is that you are making use of your mind!

Therefore, you cannot think away everything apart from your "I", when the possibility of your thought experiment proves that you cannot think away words, language, thoughts, your mind, etc.

It would seem that you are carrying out your experiment in order to prove a subjective belief, and are steering your experiment in that direction. Re-evaluate your experiment, and try to determine how valid it is. You will find out that, at best, the results are inconclusive.

[SecretSeven]

I agree with you. I find that all too often people are quick to act like they know the truth. When really, the information they have was simply learned from another source, with out proper research and verification.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by haider

I can choose not to have him in my life by avoiding him, but this does not mean he does not exist in "my reality" (there is no such thing).

There is no such thing as 'your' reality?
Really?


Then I have to ask 'whose' reality is it then?