The Big SR Sticking Point

[mysterygal]

Steve's posts were not directly aimed at you. They were aimed at any person who desires personal development. So when he says "you" he is referring to every reader, not the just you. I think the problem is that you've been taking it too personally.

When he says everyone is a manifestation of your thoughts, he really means: Everyone is a manifestation of the Universal Consciousness' thoughts. And since we are all from that Universal Consciousness, we can all identify with it. Hense why he said "your thoughts". You are a manifestaion of Consciousnes' thoughts. Other people are equally a manifestation of "conciousness's thoughts." You are no more or no less aware, or conscious than anyother person on this planet.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by mysterygal

When he says everyone is a manifestation of your thoughts, he really means: Everyone is a manifestation of the Universal Consciousness' thoughts. And since we are all from that Universal Consciousness, we can all identify with it. Hense why he said "your thoughts". You are a manifestaion of Consciousnes' thoughts. Other people are equally a manifestation of "conciousness's thoughts." You are no more or no less aware, or conscious than anyother person on this planet.

I'd just change one thing around. The term 'Universal Consciousness'.

It leads one down the path that at the 'end' there is only one conciousness, and your lose your personal awareness.

I see it more as a family of distinct and individual awarenesses. Everyone is distinct and individual, and each distinct and individual awareness will never lose it's awareness.

I come to this conclusion by way of;
In an infinite system, all things are infinite.
In an eternal system, all things are eternal.

Maybe a better term for 'Universal Consciousness' would simply be........Your Continual and Never Ending 'I'-ness.

[impaul99]

Has anyone realized that if EVERYONE is part of a single consciousness, meaning Steve, Me, You, and everyone else are little parts of a single consciousness, it pretty much defeats the "power" within the SR paradigm.

Meaning, lets say something "bad" happens in Iraq. Under the multi-mini-consciousness paradigm everyone's describing it's easy to say "It's not *my* fault, I have nothing to do with that.... maybe some little distant part of my conciousness living a life as a different person caused that, but it wasn't the *me* I'm living right now, so I can't control that person so why worry about it?"

I don't think Steve is saying that. I think Steve is saying that under his SR model *HE* creates everything in his life. Even the murders on campus, he referred them to being symbols of parts of him dying with numbers like 33 having significance to STEVE personally.

If one was to say that all SR is saying is that everything in the universe is connected, then it wouldn't be any big deal --- OF COURSE everything is connected, we're all part of this universe so we're all connected somehow.

I think the POWER of the SR model comes from thinking along the lines of YOU creating everything you see PERSONALLY, just like in a dream you have at night and trying to understand WHY.

For example, if someone fingers me and then cuts me off in traffic using the SR paradigm, I think to myself "Why would I create such an event in my life?", basically thinking that I create EVERYTHING in my life. I don't look at it like "Oh, some guy out there who's part of this universe and part of the mass consciousness cut me off, but I have no idea why, probably because he's a dumbass, and it's really irritating but there's nothing I can do about the situation except maybe honk and yell at him..."

[absvan]

I am not sure why this is causing so much confusion here. A lot of people have been saying that its crazy/psychotic etc etc. The problem everybody has understanding Steve and SR is because we are trying to see SR through the eyes of our body aka ego. I prefer to call SR Advaita Vedanta and thats what I will be using here.

In Advaita, anything related to body/form is unreal. Get that into your head before you proceed . So when Steve says that he is the only one who is conscious here, he means it from the "Enlightened" aka "Oneness" perspective. He is not the Steve who ran the California Marathon or the father of two kids. He is the "I". I dont know if I can even use the word "he" to describe the "I"....because there is no description for it. What is the "I"? "I" is all that is...not a body or a man or a woman. "I" is the consciousness/awareness which always has been - no birth or death. So from that perspective, when Steve says that I am only one who is conscious, he (I) is absolutely right. Let me explain with an example.

Lets say I met an enightened teacher who taught me the concept of Advaita and powerful meditations. After a couple of years of intense meditation, I became enlightened. What happens to me then??? I realize that the "Absvan" was a dream and I am not the body but one with the spirit. I am all that is. There is nothing that is not I. Also, I will realize that the "Absvan" is unreal and everybody in the dream including the teacher who taught me is unreal - (Note: I am refering to the bodies and the POV of our senses.). Its a dream that I created. and to experience the dream from a first hand POV I take the body of Absvan and everybody I interact with in the dream are unreal. So from this POV who is the only one conscious here. - I.......not the body of Absvan but the "I" in Absvan. Everybody else are just bodies walking which "I" created for the dream. So if something bad happens like the shootings in Virginia Tech, "I" in the body of Absvan would ask, why did I create this?? etc etc etc.... where as the ego of Absvan or the real Absvan (body) would say - Why did that crazy guy shoot them??

Well I am not enlightened and so I havent experienced this oneness. This is what I have learnt in my quest to understand SR/Advaita. I am currently readin "I am that" - a classic.

[impaul99]

But how then does SR have any practical application to our lives before we become enlightened? In your example, it seems like nothing.

I would contest that even at our present moment we are creating everything INCLUDING our EGO self and this perspective we're looking through. So from my perspective I ask (1) Why did I create those people doing those shootings and (2) Why did I create this Perspective/POV/Avatar named Paul experiencing this point of view?

In this way I have the 'power' of a SR perspective right now, in this moment, not in some distant future when I become "enlightened" and become "one with the universe".

That doesn't mean I live my life ONLY from a point of view of SR, but I can use the SR perspective as a tool just as Steve does.

[absvan]

Originally Posted by impaul99

But how then does SR have any practical application to our lives before we become enlightened? In your example, it seems like nothing.

I would contest that even at our present moment we are creating everything INCLUDING our EGO self and this perspective we're looking through. So from my perspective I ask (1) Why did I create those people doing those shootings and (2) Why did I create this Perspective/POV/Avatar named Paul experiencing this point of view?

In this way I have the 'power' of a SR perspective right now, in this moment, not in some distant future when I become "enlightened" and become "one with the universe".

That doesn't mean I live my life ONLY from a point of view of SR, but I can use the SR perspective as a tool just as Steve does.

When you enroll for a degree, it takes four years to graduate. On paper you get your degree on graudation day, but its the fours years that actually makes you a graduate. Its not the day when you become enlightened, but the process of searching and rising above the mind that shows you the ture nature of reality.

Its said in Buddshism that "The cause of suffering is attachment or desire rooted in ignorance". So SR can help you overcome suffering. You will continue with your day to day activities but at the same time you will be aware of the fact that you are not this body.

So you are right, you dont have to wait to be enlightened to use SR. Infact I beleive nobody can just wake up one day and become enlightened. You can continue to use it but at the same time you wont have any worries/fear and other emotions caused by the ego.

"Before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment: chop wood, carry water."

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by absvan

So you are right, you dont have to wait to be enlightened to use SR. Infact I beleive nobody can just wake up one day and become enlightened. You can continue to use it but at the same time you wont have any worries/fear and other emotions caused by the ego.

Whenever I read books or articles I always try to think along the lines of "How does this relate to my life RIGHT NOW, in this moment." not at some future distant point in time when I am "enlightened".

When I read Steve's SR articles I looked at how they relate to my life RIGHT NOW, and they are actually very practical. For them to be practical, however, I think from the point of view that I create everything in my life. When I say *I* in that sentence, I mean me, Paul, the ego self combined with the spirit self. That means that I created Steve, this place, everything around me, my body, my house, my car, my dog, my computer, the Internet, war, peace, sickness, mad cow disease, Microsoft, Google, etc.

Keep in mind, that I don't know how Google works for example, but I don't need to know how it works, it just does. It's the same way that a child can have a dream, and in that dream there are cars driving around, and they accelerate and decelerate inside the child's dream, even if the child has never seen the inside of an engine compartment and doesn't understand the combustion engine. To a child, cars just work. To me, Google just works. Etc.

Thinking about it from that perspective, SR becomes a very valuable tool and the whole world just becomes a learning experience.

[DaveTyler]

Universal consciousness(god) does not got thoughts LOL, human minds got thoughts.
Your all talking about God like he's a person.

[absvan]

For them to be practical, however, I think from the point of view that I create everything in my life. When I say *I* in that sentence, I mean me, Paul, the ego self combined with the spirit self. That means that I created Steve, this place, everything around me, my body, my house, my car, my dog, my computer, the Internet, war, peace, sickness, mad cow disease, Microsoft, Google, etc.

First of all you cannot say "I mean me, Paul, the ego self combined with the spirit self". This is what I have been trying to tell in all my threads here and this is also the cause of confusion in this forum where people think SR is psychotic. I is not the body. As Dave said, you cannot think that the super consciousness is a person with thoughts.

Thinking about it from that perspective, SR becomes a very valuable tool and the whole world just becomes a learning experience.

First of all SR is not a tool, but the truth. Second, thinking that you can use SR as a valuable tool is nothing but empowering your own ego.......the opposite of enlightenement. Dont get me wrong. I dont mean to say that you should not focus on your house, car, vacation etc............I hope you get the point here . - Think about it. Arent you actually empowering your ego?

I know its hard to understand. It took me a long time to understand. May be thats why only a few are enlightened )

[DaveTyler]

Everytime you think YOU are God, remember Einstein's famous quote "God does not play dice with the universe"
And there is no YOU that can be enlightened, "YOU" die when your enlightened. So everytime you wonder if you got it, just know as long as you think "I AM ENLIGHTENED" proves your not:P
Enlightenment isnt some "oh YEAH, I THINK THIS AND THEN I AM ENLIGHTENED" enlightenment will blow your mind more than ANYTHING you've ever experienced.There will no doubt in your mind when experiencing a enlightened peak, cause there will no mind to doubt it.
So stop playing Ego God and realize you were wrong and go on, your starting to get it, just have misunderstood it.

absvan has got it right, everyone who hear about Law of Attraction and Subjective Reality thinks "OH YEAH IMMA MANIFEST A PENTHOUSE; TEN CARS; 20 SUPER MODELS AND A BIGGER DICK" they don't realize that THATS THE EGO playing, it enforces the ego like 323232.
Enlightenment is about conquering the ego and kill it, realizing the REAL "I", misunderstanding SR is like giving the ego a nuclear weapon.
Thats why I've been trying to warn people, cause its a trap, a sad one too..

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by absvan

First of all you cannot say "I mean me, Paul, the ego self combined with the spirit self". This is what I have been trying to tell in all my threads here and this is also the cause of confusion in this forum where people think SR is psychotic. I is not the body. As Dave said, you cannot think that the super consciousness is a person with thoughts.

SR is useless to super consciousness because super consciousness has no need for it since it is ALL and there is no subjective part to reality, there's just REALITY at that level.

It is only at the level of EGO that the subjective reality perspective becomes useful. Meaning, SUBJECTIVE REALITY only exists once you enter the domain of EGO. Prior to that, there's just BLISS/TOTALITY/GOD/EVERYTHING

Second, thinking that you can use SR as a valuable tool is nothing but empowering your own ego.......the opposite of enlightenement.

Not in my experience. In my experience, using SR as a tool for greater clarity, awareness and understanding is a step TOWARDS enlightenment and away from EGO.

The EGO tries to empower itself with concepts like OBJECTIVE REALITY, not SUBJECTIVE REALITY. The Ego wants everything to be seperate, not interconnected. The Ego doesn't want me to see a correlation between my thoughts and the things happening around me. The Ego wants me to see an angry person in my life as something OUT THERE, not as a part of something WITHIN MY EGO being projected in front of me.

Subjective reality is a stepping stone towards enlightenment, and once you reach enlightenment nothing else is needed, not even subjective reality.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Universal consciousness(god) does not got thoughts LOL, human minds got thoughts.
Your all talking about God like he's a person.

The buzz word Universal consciousness(god) are what I call trap words.
All there are are individual awareness that are eternal.

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

.
Enlightenment is about conquering the ego and kill it, realizing the REAL "I", misunderstanding SR is like giving the ego a nuclear weapon.
Thats why I've been trying to warn people, cause its a trap, a sad one too..

You have your ego, you have had it, and you will never lose it.
Enlightenment is simply where you create instantly with your ego.
(After you die, or here if you practice.)

All the religions have it backwards and wrong.
(But thats their jobs.)

Originally Posted by impaul99

SR is useless to super consciousness because super consciousness has no need for it since it is ALL and there is no subjective part to reality, there's just REALITY at that level.

It is only at the level of EGO that the subjective reality perspective becomes useful. Meaning, SUBJECTIVE REALITY only exists once you enter the domain of EGO. Prior to that, there's just BLISS/TOTALITY/GOD/EVERYTHING

You have your ego, you have had it, and you will never lose it.
BLISS/TOTALITY/GOD/EVERYTHING is simply where you create instantly with your ego.
(After you die.)

All the religions have it backwards and wrong.
(But thats their jobs.)

[DaveTyler]

Haha no, enlightenment kills all ego...

Stop speaking on things you don't know anything about, if u had the truth you'd be enlightened. your not, so stop trying to keep people down cause you love your ego toomuch

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Haha no, enlightenment kills all ego...

Stop speaking on things you don't know anything about, if u had the truth you'd be enlightened. your not, so stop trying to keep people down cause you love your ego toomuch

Go ahead, kill your ego.
Where does that leave you?

[DaveTyler]

It leaves you being, with no judgement, everything just IS perfect.
I can tell you this because I've experienced temporary ego death.
Your soul wont die

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Your soul wont die

What's the difference between your 'soul' and your 'ego'?

[DaveTyler]

What enlightened beings got, the true SELF.
Listen, either you dont got beliefs in enlightenment or your simply not ready for it.
A few months ago I made threads like "IS THERE SUCH A THING CALLED EGO RESSURRECTION ANYONE, I FEEL LIKE IM DYING SLOWLY ON THE INSIDE" I was terrifyed, cause ego has been established for ONE purpose survival, its animal nature.

Listen Im not judging you in anyway, you have your own beliefs, thats cool.
In your world your God, but dont you wonder what part of your self I am then?

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

What enlightened beings got, the true SELF.
Listen, either you dont got beliefs in enlightenment or your simply not ready for it.
A few months ago I made threads like "IS THERE SUCH A THING CALLED EGO RESSURRECTION ANYONE, I FEEL LIKE IM DYING SLOWLY ON THE INSIDE" I was terrifyed, cause ego has been established for ONE purpose survival, its animal nature.

That is your Holographic physical self, not you.
Make friends with it, don't kill it.

[DaveTyler]

So your beliefs is that ego is the purest form of you?
Ego cares for onething, itself, NOTHING Else, its the nature of it.
You can never achieve bliss, unconditional love, peace or really love at all. Live that way if it pleases you

It's simple really, I believe in enlightenment, you believe in soliphism or some religion ************. Religions like christianity speaks about ego as YOU, I hate religions so I'm not here to even start a arguement or discussion over that.
I respect everyones beliefs, I'm simply helping those who want help.

Reason I speak on enlightenment is that I can speak from experience, not belief, I didn't even know ************ about EITHER of this ************ before enlightenment dropped on my head, and I have realized ego is illusions and the only way I can ever get free is to achieve permanent enlightenment.

at one point I think we share SOME kind of same view, I'm not disgarding the fact of a unique individual self that survives enlightenment, but not a personal, more pure soul.
Cause after achieving enlightenment and physical death, you can chose to reincarnate or not. Someone must take that choice... But it has nothin to do with ego

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

So your beliefs is that ego is the purest form of you?
Ego cares for onething, itself, NOTHING Else, its the nature of it.
You can never achieve bliss, unconditional love, peace or really love at all. Live that way if it pleases you

Lol.
Who taught you that?

My 'ego', AKA me, cares a lot for everything !
Selfishness is not a trait I have.

[infinitethoughts]

Dave.
There is no path to enlightenment............cause you are already there.

Looking for the path to enlightenment...........will keep you away from it.

[DaveTyler]

Ego is selfishness, it is, it believes things is his possession and ************, nothing is your possession, not even your house, only becomes you pay some other ego person for it doesnt make it yours, thats a human made concept.

You clearly identify strongly with ego and are not ready for enlightenment or may not even believe in it. it's all good Your on your path, I'm on mine

[DaveTyler]

Ego is selfishness, it is, it believes things is his possession and ************, nothing is your possession, not even "your" house, only because you pay some other ego person for it doesnt make it yours, thats a human made concept.

You clearly identify strongly with ego and are not ready for enlightenment or may not even believe in it. it's all good Your on your path, I'm on mine.

So you believe your ego is supreme consciousness and everything is projections of you? Cause thats what this thread is about, so I'm sorry if I have misunderstood something.

I know that we're already here, what I mean with path is more REALIZATION. You can only find the enlightened being within your self.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

So you believe your ego is supreme consciousness and everything is projections of you? Cause thats what this thread is about, so I'm sorry if I have misunderstood something.

I know that we're already here, what I mean with path is more REALIZATION. You can only find the enlightened being within your self.

I believe 'I' am infinite.
I choose forever.... universes.

[DaveTyler]

again, maybe our discussion is just misunderstanding each other

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

again, maybe our discussion is just misunderstanding each other

(Nothing to say, but have to put in 10 or more characters to reply)

[Ree]

Whoa! I've been away for a few days and just got back and saw that there are some great posts here and some EGGS cellent discussion! I enjoyed it! Thanks!

[absvan]

Originally Posted by impaul99

It is only at the level of EGO that the subjective reality perspective becomes useful. Meaning, SUBJECTIVE REALITY only exists once you enter the domain of EGO. Prior to that, there's just BLISS/TOTALITY/GOD/EVERYTHING

Impaul,

Your above statements clearly say that you havent understood Nonduality. There is no point going back and forth and it will only lead to more confusion. I suggest you read atleast one book on Advaita written by the teachers themselves from whom others learnt it and brought it to the West. After that there cannot be any more doubts/confusion caused by me or Steve or anyone here.

Advaita is an ancient concept that originated in India. I would recommend the books "I am that", which is a collection of converstions with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, and "Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi".

I also found some youtube links when Eckhart Tolle went to Rishikesh (a spiritual place in India). Those were awesome too.

Thanks for this discussion which also helped me learn more about SR/Nonduality/Advaita Vedanta.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Stop speaking on things you don't know anything about, if u had the truth you'd be enlightened. your not, so stop trying to keep people down cause you love your ego toomuch

You must be enlightened then the way you write your messages. I wonder, then, why are you on these forums? Shouldn't you be raising the dead somewhere or something?

Seriously though, I think it's pretty safe to say that NOBODY on these forums has reached total enlightenment yet so I think we should all be entitled to our unenlightened opinions.

[Excellent Lodestar]

Hey Absvan,

I too am Finally Reading "I am that"...Makes everything so clear.

Have you checked out "The Advaita Show"? TPN :: The Advaita Show

Just a couple of real guys talking about everything...and Nothing! and making it very entertaining.