"Living with your parents is called childhood."

[Harmonium]

From Steve's twitter. What do you all think?


I laughed, he's got a point. I am 20 and still at home, but I should be out of here within the next year or two and very comfortable. I had a lot of resistance from my parents about letting me do what I want with my life all through my younger years, they got off my back a year or two ago, and now I've had room to create my own income the way I want to, which is really nice. Being able to provide for yourself without doing work you hate is something everyone should have, but I don't know if it can be that way. I consider myself very lucky to have found a path that doesn't suck so bad.

I've shifted quite a bit since I was a teenager drifting through highschool, failing everything not know what I was gonna do with my life. Providing for yourself (especially when it's easy and you don't compromise your morality or values) has definitely become something I respect a lot.

[Curtis2011]

Male development pattern:

Boys => "Guys" => Men.

Typically "Guys" are the 18-25ish age where you are still living off your parents, or still living with roommates, or something like that. Basically you are not fully independent yet but also you are growing more responsible and slowly gaining that independence.

[Dynamist]

I think that's more of a cultural idea.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Dynamist

I think that's more of a cultural idea.

Bingo. Not a problem in many cultures not our own.

[Harmonium]

The judgement may be cultural, but I think the value of caring/providing for yourself is universal.

[Dynamist]

Originally Posted by Harmonium

The judgement may be cultural, but I think the value of caring/providing for yourself is universal.

Well maybe. But how a person chooses to do so is a personal choice. Some people don't have issues living with their parents either because their parents don't limit them or their lifestyle. Others do. But the idea that it's "childhood", to me, is more of a cultural thing.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Harmonium

The judgement may be cultural, but I think the value of caring/providing for yourself is universal.

You see, in some other cultures, this value is taken one step further. Eg many Asian adults will stay with their parents, to care and provide for them, in their old age.

In American culture, the focus is on whether you are caring and providing for yourself, or not.

In other cultures, the focus is whether you are caring and providing for yourself AND OTHERS (including your aged parents) .... Or not.

[momo3bur]

Hmmm...

I find this thread very interesting simply because my stepmother is Asian, originally reared throughout China and Taiwan, so I've seen both cultures try to exist together and argue over this exact subject first hand many, many times.

Not only that, but watching an Asian mother who tries to keep these cultural ideas intact raising a child in America is also very interesting. Her daughter took nearly 25 years, but she finally rebelled and practically lost her mind because she was allowed absolutely no independence in a world where it was expected of her.

Add that into the fact that my stepmother has somehow mixed all of this into being radically Christian. hmmm.

Anyway, neat to see everyone's opinions on this matter. Very, very interesting...

[Shift]

Can't help but notice this theme in North American culture where family is a burden that should be shipped off ASAP.

When we have kids, our freedom is gone.

When our kids legally become adults, it's time for them move out... ready or not.

When our parents get old, it's time for them to move into a nursing home.

Whatever we have to do to get rid of the burden of family, we'll do it.

Welcome to the most ass-backwards society on Earth.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Shift

Can't help but notice this theme in North American culture where family is a burden that should be shipped off ASAP.

When we have kids, our freedom is gone.

When our kids legally become adults, it's time for them move out... ready or not.

When our parents get old, it's time for them to move into a nursing home.

Whatever we have to do to get rid of the burden of family, we'll do it.

Welcome to the most ass-backwards society on Earth.

It's only ass backwards to you because you feel that the opposite should be the norm. Prove to us why YOU are right.

[Shift]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

It's only ass backwards to you because you feel that the opposite should be the norm. Prove to us why YOU are right.

I've got a better idea! Why don't you prove to ME why you are right!

Of course, that would require a lengthy discussion that would make this thread look like something out of "World Affairs", and wouldn't actually accomplish anything. I'm going to take the liberty of skipping ahead several pages and agree to disagree.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Shift

I've got a better idea! Why don't you prove to ME why you are right!

Of course, that would require a lengthy discussion that would make this thread look like something out of "World Affairs", and wouldn't actually accomplish anything. I'm going to take the liberty of skipping ahead several pages and agree to disagree.

It is the norm in America. We don't have to prove being right. You are the one coming in here and making the claim/accusation, and the burden of proof ALWAYS falls on the ACCUSER. In case you have never heard of the concept.

When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim.[1] This burden does not necessarily require a mathematical or strictly logical proof, although many strong arguments do rise to this level (such as in logical syllogisms). Rather, the evidential standard required for a given claim is determined by convention or community standards, with regard to the context of the claim in question

Agreeing to disagree is the tool of the loser, in order to seem like the better man, when in reality they know that they have no way of proving their argument, and see no point in continuing. It's quitter talk.

[Mariana Trench]

I would have left at fourteen had it been legal (and my SS card hadn't been hidden from me so I could get a job ).

And while I'll help my parents financially and put them into a good home when they need it (because I'll always love them), I'd never subject my future children to having them live with us. I cared for my grandparents while my parents were working and it is incredibly hard to deal with senile people when you're they're life line but you don't have any power yourself (my blind, eating-disordered grandmother has severe Alzheimer's and my deaf grandfather has anxiety attacks -- they really should have professional care).

But if my brother needed help? I'd be there for him in a New York minute.

This isn't as much of a cultural pissing contest as it's being made to seem. In Western countries there are a thousand varied reason why living with ones parents is a good idea, and no matter your country some people are toxic. Yes, toxic people with power over you -do- contribute to mental illness.

I didn't really take the tweet seriously. Hardeehar, witty quip on the stereotypical American manchild. I rarely expect tweets of any kind to be culturally-sensitive, nuanced observations, though.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by Shift

Can't help but notice this theme in North American culture where family is a burden that should be shipped off ASAP.

When we have kids, our freedom is gone.

When our kids legally become adults, it's time for them move out... ready or not.

When our parents get old, it's time for them to move into a nursing home.

Welcome to the most ass-backwards society on Earth.

Hmmm...I'm not sure if it would be called ass-backwards in North America. LOL.

I do have to say that in my personal experience, although elderly parents often do live in nursing homes, etc., usually it is still the children supporting them. My grandmother lives on her own but my father still cares for her in everyway she will allow him. She would very much resent having to dependent on him or anyone else and would never choose to live with her children unless there was no other choice. Honestly, she's expressed to me that she'd rather live in a nursing home or retirement villiage than in one of her childrens' homes.

I've spent A LOT of time in nursing homes because my family works in them...somehow about half of my female family members ended up being nurses, therapists, etc., that work in nursing homes. My mother manages the business office in one. THEY AREN'T ALWAYS AS BAD AS THEY ARE MADE OUT TO BE! They can actually be quite nice and allow elderly people to be involved in social activities with their peers while still under medical supervision so they are safe. You just have to keep a good eye out and visit regularly and LISTEN to your parents instead of treating them like children!

It's simply just personal preference. Even my Asian stepmother's father refused to live with his children once he moved to America. They tried to MAKE him (because they treated him like a child and decided he wouldn't know any better) and he continuously urinated all over everyone's belongings when people weren't home until they *allowed* him to move into his own apartment. After this, he was just fine with accepting help from his children. In his own apartment, he was allowed to have liquor and prostitutes and live just like he did in Taiwan. LOL. No one to tell him NO.

Her mother on the other hand, loved living with her. She seemed to do very well and get along with everyone pretty well. She was very helpful in everyway and things were rather harmonious. She did irritate my father quite a bit because he felt as if he was married to his wife and her mother and "Popo" sp? seemed to also feel he was hers just as much as her daughters. LOL. But they all loved each other nonetheless.

I think people should be allowed to live as they please, do what makes them happiest, and be allowed to break the cultural norm if it means being able to peacefully exist with your family.

[ZephyrusX]

I think I would lose my mind if I had no independence living with my mother as well. Ideally, I try to think 'win-win' with her and make decisions together, though it doesn't always work that way. In Asian households, is it always the parents' decision that trumps all? I realize there are probably individual differences from household to household.

Originally Posted by momo3bur

Not only that, but watching an Asian mother who tries to keep these cultural ideas intact raising a child in America is also very interesting. Her daughter took nearly 25 years, but she finally rebelled and practically lost her mind because she was allowed absolutely no independence in a world where it was expected of her.

[OptimistPrime]

Originally Posted by Harmonium

From Steve's twitter. What do you all think?

Heh, I'm probably one of the eldest people on this forum who lives with his parents, so here's my take:

I personally think that, if you're going to make a broad generalization about who's a child and who's an adult, John Cheese recently made a much better one:

...it seems to be a balancing point between when you stop depending on other people, and become the person other people can depend on.

In that article, he talks about a teen who works a job to support him and his mother who's on disability, and guys in their 30s who live on their own with wives and kids who are less of an adult than that teen is. Great stuff.

Now, by that measure, I still consider myself to be a child. But I aspire to become an adult one day, by becoming someone whom other people depend on instead of someone who depends on other people. In my situation, doing that will probably require me to move out of my parents' house eventually.

Do I feel shame about being a "child" by that measure even though I'm a legal adult? ♥♥♥♥ no. I think people sometimes take too much pride in being self-reliant. Relying on other people can be a great thing in life, as can being relied upon. What matters is that you do it with people who aren't toxic or abusive.

In that respect, I think that those who generalize that people either should or shouldn't live with their parents are incorrect. Either living situation can be a good thing (or at least better than the alternative), depending on the circumstances and the personalities of everyone involved.

If you have overbearing parents who destroy your self esteem, I say get the hell out of there as fast as you can! If you and your parents get along great and you're happy with the idea of living with them (or having them live with you), and everyone else (your parents, your spouse if you have one, etc.) is also happy with the arrangement, then go for it! It's awesome that you all get along so well.

The same goes for elderly people facing the prospect of living with their kids. If living with your kids would make you miserable, don't move in with them if you can avoid it! And if you and everyone else involved feels fine about you living with them, go right ahead!

[ZephyrusX]

I really like that.

I think North America does over value independence and I do see value in learning to ok with depending upon others. I suppose striking a meaningful balance would be the ideal or interdependence.

Sooner or later, we all fall upon hard times, and if hurts our ego or pride to reach out for help, we are not going to fair very well through life. Its unbelievable how much mental stress some people will put them selves through if they lose their independence (I'm speaking to my self again ).

Originally Posted by OptimistPrime

Do I feel shame about being a "child" by that measure even though I'm a legal adult? ♥♥♥♥ no. I think people sometimes take too much pride in being self-reliant. Relying on other people can be a great thing in life, as can being relied upon. What matters is that you do it with people who aren't toxic or abusive.

[OptimistPrime]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I really like that.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I think North America does over value independence and I do see value in learning to ok with depending upon others. I suppose striking a meaningful balance would be the ideal or interdependence.

Yup. Not to say that self-reliance is bad, of course! It, too, can be a great thing, depending on the circumstances. I think the key is to go with whatever mixture of independence, dependence, and interdependence works for you, and any other people involved, as individuals. And the exact mixture that works best will usually change many times over the course of one's life, sometimes when you expect it, sometimes when you don't. It's not an aspect of life that can be neatly generalized about. It's one of those richly nuanced and highly subjective areas, like selfishness vs. selflessness.

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Sooner or later, we all fall upon hard times, and if hurts our ego or pride to reach out for help, we are not going to fair very well through life. Its unbelievable how much mental stress some people will put them selves through if they lose their independence (I'm speaking to my self again ).

Hehe, you can talk to yourself in my presence all you want. Your conversations with yourself are usually very interesting to watch.

[russianrocket]

Also, probably generalizing here, but I can't think of a single individual that I've ever known who lives with their parents, who I'd actually consider mature. Zip, zero, zilch. If they are mature, they tend to have some other serious mental issues.

The only exceptions I have personally found, are those that have parents move in with them. But, then the title of this thread would have been " your parents living with you is called childhood". Which, quite frankly, wouldn't make sense, yet is the basis of most of the anti moving out arguments in this thread.

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by OptimistPrime

Hehe, you can talk to yourself in my presence all you want. Your conversations with yourself are usually very interesting to watch.

Originally Posted by RR

Also, probably generalizing here, but I can't think of a single individual that I've ever known who lives with their parents, who I'd actually consider mature. Zip, zero, zilch. If they are mature, they tend to have some other serious mental issues.

There is subjectivity for you.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

There is subjectivity for you.

lol just talking about what I've personally experienced. Not trying to say anyone who lives with their parents has mental issues. My brothers moved out at 30. They were mature, but had serious social issues, that was NOT helped by living in their parents house. One, is more or less a hermit now. The other one, some how miraculously managed to escape that. Thanks to religion.... as much as that pains for me to say.

[momo3bur]

I think we also all need to consider that children moving out of the home is not ONLY a North American custom. As a matter of fact, I believe many cultures move their kids out of their homes. It seems most of it revolves around marriage, but they are out nonetheless.

This is just another way to take a hit at America...LOL...when in fact Europeans have been marrying their children and sending them away for thousands of years to spread their family name throughout the countries. Many times girls were married and sent away as early as 13 and 14 years of age. I think perhaps it's more of a Western and Eastern debate as opposed to American Vs. Asian.

All I can say is that I'm extremely happy that I live in a place where I have a choice. I will always take care of my parents in whatever way they need and most people I know are the same way as long as they still have a healthy relationship with their parents. I really don't know too many people who are just left alone to rot, as was mentioned above.

Even though I know some of you that don't live in America (and even some that do) think we're all jerks who care nothing about anyone but ourselves and money, we do have family values. They may be different than other parts of the world, but again, America is a melting pot. Most of our cultural beliefs came from other countries. Nothing much is actually "American" if you want to be technical.

[momo3bur]

Completely agreed, RR. I think the issue is more about adults who continue to live with their parents without pursuing their own independent, totally self-reliant lives, which is fine if both parties are ok with it, but (in "American" culture...I'm not going to say Western because I know there are still many places where it's not unusual to have an adult move away from home until he/she is married) may be viewed as having a lack of motivation, ambition, and basically taking advantage of family. That might not actually be the case, but it does seem to be the judgement most other American adults will apply to individuals who do practice this.

It doesn't really apply to adults who have their own lives, own marriages, jobs, etc., yet tote their parents along in order to care for them. There is absolutely nothing adolescent about that whatsoever.

I don't think having your parents live with you constantly happens a whole lot in North America, but something that is very common is for an adult to move away, start their own life and family, and then move their parents back in with them when the parents are older and need assistance. That scenario is actually very common, at least around the area I live. Many houses around here, including mine, are built with an onsite or connected "mother-in-law" suite that will having living quarters, kitchen, bath, bedroom(s) so that the parent(s) can live with the adult child but still care for themselves as much as they can so THEY (the parents) don't lose their sense of independence.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by momo3bur

It doesn't really apply to adults who have their own lives, own marriages, jobs, etc., yet tote their parents along in order to care for them. There is absolutely nothing adolescent about that whatsoever.

I don't think having your parents live with you constantly
happens a whole lot in North America, but something that is very common is for an adult to move away, start their own life and family, and then move their parents back in with them when the parents are older and need assistance. That scenario is actually very common, at least around the area I live. Many houses around here, including mine, are built with an onsite or connected "mother-in-law" suite that will having living quarters, kitchen, bath, bedroom(s) so that the parent(s) can live with the adult child but still care for themselves as much as they can so THEY (the parents) don't lose their sense of independence.

I haven't participated here in a while, but this particular issue just galls me:
When I was a child, the 'adult's thinking was: Cant wait 'til she can take care of herself. - Then at age 13 I was sent to the USA, where at only age 15 I was forced by mom to work FULL-time, while just starting hi-school (& for the only time in school, I started failing because I was comatose during school hours, because of working daily from 1500-2340. <- That is child-abuse on so many levels.
Then,
the very daughter, who I protected (from being by the AMA aborted), and who I lovingly nurtured & raised, & homeschooled on sheer FUN, so she could graduate from college with honors while only 17, - when she got married, she said to me: "Mom should anything ever happen to you, you can't come here to recover. Sorry."

So, because of medical malpractice I have needed a place where in fact I can recover. I can't even begin to describe, what it feels like to be abandoned, no less by the very people who you gave your life for, to protect.

Well, this is just another post to explain why I don't much come here anymore, aside the fact that most people don't bother responding, at the same time that I have positively encouraged so many here.

Oh well, carry on!

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

I haven't participated here in a while, but this particular issue just galls me:
When I was a child, the 'adult's thinking was: Cant wait 'til she can take care of herself. - Then at age 13 I was sent to the USA, where at only age 15 I was forced by mom to work FULL-time, while just starting hi-school (& for the only time in school, I started failing because I was comatose during school hours, because of working daily from 1500-2340. <- That is child-abuse on so many levels.
Then,
the very daughter, who I protected (from being by the AMA aborted), and who I lovingly nurtured & raised, & homeschooled on sheer FUN, so she could graduate from college with honors while only 17, - when she got married, she said to me: "Mom should anything ever happen to you, you can't come here to recover. Sorry."

So, because of medical malpractice I have needed a place where in fact I can recover. I can't even begin to describe, what it feels like to be abandoned, no less by the very people who you gave your life for, to protect.

Well, this is just another post to explain why I don't much come here anymore, aside the fact that most people don't bother responding, at the same time that I have positively encouraged so many here.

Oh well, carry on!

I'm very sorry you've had to go through this. I can't speak for your situation, but most of the families I know personally would never have completely abandoned their parents, including my own grandfather who was abusive to his children on many, many levels. His children don't particularly want him to live in their home because many of them have children, but we pay nearly $2000 a month just for his room in a nice retirement villiage close to one of his daughters.

I'm really sorry about what you're going through and the only thing I would recommend is finding out WHY your daughter feels this way and listen to what she has to say.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by momo3bur

I'm very sorry you've had to go through this.
I can't speak for your situation, but most of the families I know personally
would never have completely abandoned their parents, including my own grandfather:
we pay nearly $2000 a month just for his room
in a nice retirement village close to one of his daughters.

Thank you for at least some kind words, towards me.

And thank you for all that you are doing, for your (abusive) Grandpa.
Tho I would NEVER accept such help; because -
1. I won't be a 'burden' on anyone.
2. I will never agree to live in an "institution".

Originally Posted by momo3bur

I'm really sorry about what you're going through
and
the only thing I would recommend is finding out
WHY your daughter feels this way, and listen to what she has to say.

It's very simple: After I discovered, in absolute horror, that her father was a pedophile, I filed for divorce immediately.
She was tiny still, and I took her to a SAFE place, & as I said above she in freedom & safety, got to experience & experiment with her other homeschooled peers, life's fun pleasures, and all the things we enjoyed... together.

After she graduated college as a teen, she married her Sweetie, & at age 20 she already ran her own Business, they had bought a brand new home, and she was expecting...
when
she sent me THE letter: "Mom, I'm sorry you got stuck with a lousy human, but I got a good one. And I want my kids to have both grandparents together. So unless you agree to become Good-friends with dad, you will NEVER get to see your grandkids, and should something happen to you, you can not come here, to recover. I love you mom, you are the best. And life is not fair.

Her 1st. child is now 3, and I have never seen them. And she moved all they way across the country.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

she sent me THE letter: "Mom, I'm sorry you got stuck with a lousy human, but I got a good one. And I want my kids to have both grandparents together. So unless you agree to become Good-friends with dad, you will NEVER get to see your grandkids, and should something happen to you, you can not come here, to recover. I love you mom, you are the best. And life is not fair.

I think your daughter definitely could have worded it a lot better than she did, if this is an accurate representation of what she did write...that would be AWFUL to be the one on the receiving end of that. It doesn't get much more of an emotional blackmail than that.

Her reasoning sounds pretty kooky too. I would think she'd not want him in the picture at all, instead of wanting him there just for posterity sake, so it looks like everything is happy family?

If it were me, I would not want my kids anywhere near a pedophile regardless of whether he's my father or not. It sounds like she is trying to have solid values, but is not really being reasonable or thinking rationally about her children's safety.

Has she received counselling from when her father did this to her?

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

Thank you for at least some kind words, towards me.

And thank you for all that you are doing, for your (abusive) Grandpa.
Tho I would NEVER accept such help; because -
1. I won't be a 'burden' on anyone.
2. I will never agree to live in an "institution".


It's very simple: After I discovered, in absolute horror, that her father was a pedophile, I filed for divorce immediately.
She was tiny still, and I took her to a SAFE place, & as I said above she in freedom & safety, got to experience & experiment with her other homeschooled peers, life's fun pleasures, and all the things we enjoyed... together.

After she graduated college as a teen, she married her Sweetie, & at age 20 she already ran her own Business, they had bought a brand new home, and she was expecting...
when
she sent me THE letter: "Mom, I'm sorry you got stuck with a lousy human, but I got a good one. And I want my kids to have both grandparents together. So unless you agree to become Good-friends with dad, you will NEVER get to see your grandkids, and should something happen to you, you can not come here, to recover. I love you mom, you are the best. And life is not fair.

Her 1st. child is now 3, and I have never seen them. And she moved all they way across the country.

Wow. I'm sorry I didn't see this earlier. By the time I checked the thread, there were tons of responses so I guess I missed this one.

I'm going to let my feelings take over in response to this and tell you I think this could have something to do with her husband. It sounds like the two of you were very close, and I'm not sure what all went on between you two, but if those are her words exactly, it just makes very little sense.

Obviously if her father is a pedophile, you would think there would be no reason she would want him around her own children. Is there some sort of serious prejudice she or her husband have against divorce and they don't want that influence brought to their childrens' attention? Are they very involved in a religion that would shun you for not being married to the father of your children?

This is just kind of weird, Sk8. No offense to you or your daughter intended whatsoever, but I kind of feel like there is something more to her case than what she wrote to you. Otherwise, it is just...unreasonable. And VERY unfair to you.

I'm so sorry you're being faced with this. It would kill my mother not to see her grandchildren.

[pyrogen]

Sk8, this is just terrible.

I cannot abide by doing this. I broke up with both of my partners, ultimately, over their treatment of my parents and it's something that's a ground rule in the future (must treat my parents with respect).

I am living with them for the time being (at 37) but you know what? They don't have to do that. I am getting to complete my college education because of them, instead of being out there competing for the same sucky jobs I had been doing, and I'm grateful for this. I hadn't been happy before and now i have a real chance to move forward in my life.


I really, really want to make enough money to help them out and one of my "millionaire dreams" is to buy them a house of their own in a place where they would like to live. Not having to worry about them, would take a lot off of my mind.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

I haven't participated here in a while, but this particular issue just galls me:
When I was a child, the 'adult's thinking was: Cant wait 'til she can take care of herself. - Then at age 13 I was sent to the USA, where at only age 15 I was forced by mom to work FULL-time, while just starting hi-school (& for the only time in school, I started failing because I was comatose during school hours, because of working daily from 1500-2340. <- That is child-abuse on so many levels.
Then,
the very daughter, who I protected (from being by the AMA aborted), and who I lovingly nurtured & raised, & homeschooled on sheer FUN, so she could graduate from college with honors while only 17, - when she got married, she said to me: "Mom should anything ever happen to you, you can't come here to recover. Sorry."

So, because of medical malpractice I have needed a place where in fact I can recover. I can't even begin to describe, what it feels like to be abandoned, no less by the very people who you gave your life for, to protect.

Well, this is just another post to explain why I don't much come here anymore, aside the fact that most people don't bother responding, at the same time that I have positively encouraged so many here.

Oh well, carry on!

You chose to create a child. That's one of the first things that gets people out of families. Guilt. It's always the guilt of " I raised you! I put all my time and money into you! I deserve respect and for you to take care of me". I'm sorry, but it doesn't work like that. You're child didn't abandon you. They went on to have their own life. Isn't that why you raised her? I don't understand this whole concept of having a child to take care of so that you have someone to take care of you. It happens all over the world, which is why we are so overly populated. People having kids so that they can bring money in for the family, or so that they have someone to love and love them back.

lol tho I doubt my post will encourage you to come on here more, it's how I feel about the situation. I had the same guilt trip by my parents, and I hated it. Always telling me that all the work they put into me, means I should take care of them when they get old.