"Living with your parents is called childhood."

[OptimistPrime]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

then explain to me the reasoning in the old days, before they had buttons.

I looked it up, and "pokie" is short for "poker machine", which is what they're called in Australia and NZ.

[momo3bur]

Wow, I didn't mean to sound so crappy in that last post, but my point is that, despite your misconceptions ALG, children leaving their parents is not abandonment. WE COME BACK or BRING THEM HOME when they need help. The fact is, most parents are perfectly capable of caring for themselves when their children leave home. They are still young and want to lead their own independent lives as well.

For example, when my children are grown and move out, I want to travel. I cannot do that while they are here and in school and I didn't have the finances to do it before I had children. Therefore, when they are established, I WILL DO IT and I also would like to have nice parties, child free nights, a hottub that I can get into naked, and walk around my house in complete disclosure if I damn well please, which I'll never be able to do with my children living in the house.

However, like my family has done for my grandparents and like I'll do for my parents, when the time comes, I know my kids will be there when I need help. If they aren't, all I ask for is a nice nursing home with cable. LOL.

And it's not like we move out just have nothing to do with our parents at all until they are on their deathbed. Most of us still get together for major holidays and, in my family and most of my friends that I know, still live close to each other so that we can have dinner whenever we want or get together for lunch, visit on the weekends, or have support on either side when it's needed.

I just feel like you associate moving out of one's parents' home with complete abandonment when in fact a person can still maintain a loving and caring relationship with his parents and live independently. There is nothing wrong with staying in your parents home if that's what works for you and your parents, but it just doesn't work like that here most of the time. Steve's article really doesn't apply to you because it's a cultural norm to remain with your parents.

[Acting Like Godot]

To be honest, I can see other reasons why the "staying with parents" model doesn't work well in the US, compared to the "moving out" model.

The reason is that your parents don't even stay together. Just browsing the threads, I see all the time Americans mentioning casually and incidentally that they had had a divorce, or that their parents had had a divorce. So generally it seems that divorce is very prevalent in the US.

Logistically speaking, it makes the "staying with parents" model much less viable. I mean - I could either reside with Mum, or Dad, but not both, if they are physically in different locations. Then there are other complications, like how I feel about Mum's new partner or Dad's other woman - and how they would feel about me.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

To be honest, I can see other reasons why the "staying with parents" model doesn't work well in the US, compared to the "moving out" model.

The reason is that your parents don't even stay together. Just browsing the threads, I see all the time Americans mentioning casually and incidentally that they had had a divorce, or that their parents had had a divorce. So generally it seems that divorce is very prevalent in the US.

Logistically speaking, it makes the "staying with parents" model much less viable. I mean - I could either reside with Mum, or Dad, but not both, if they are physically in different locations. Then there are other complications, like how I feel about Mum's new partner or Dad's other woman - and how they would feel about me.

Yes, this is definitely a very valid point. We have a very high divorce rate and I'm sure that does make a big difference in staying with parents.

I actually think that the indepence we really try to teach our children probably has a lot to do with the divorce rate. People learn that they are completely able to care for and be dependent on themselves financially, emotionally, etc., therefore it's much easier to split a marriage when things aren't going according to personal preference. Of course that isn't the only factor, but I do believe it is a big one. There are probably more happily divorced people around here than happily married. LOL.

I find absolutely nothing wrong with it, either. I don't feel like a person should be expected to stay in an unhappy, unhealthy situation full of abuse or whatever it is that creates issues in the marriage that cannot be resolved. No one should be forced to live unhappily and without love.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by momo3bur

I find absolutely nothing wrong with it, either. I don't feel like a person should be expected to stay in an unhappy, unhealthy situation full of abuse or whatever it is that creates issues in the marriage that cannot be resolved. No one should be forced to live unhappily and without love.

Those other countries might have low divorce rates, and high rates of kids staying at home, but I don't know if those two things are really connected. At least,t he only connection I see, is that both those things are the way they are, because their opposites are taboo and not the norm. Not only that, but you hurt your family and friends by going against that norm. Even if you are unhappy. I'd rather have America. At least you get to make your own choices.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Those other countries might have low divorce rates, and high rates of kids staying at home, but I don't know if those two things are really connected. At least,t he only connection I see, is that both those things are the way they are, because their opposites are taboo and not the norm. Not only that, but you hurt your family and friends by going against that norm. Even if you are unhappy. I'd rather have America. At least you get to make your own choices.

Yes, I agree 100%. I'd much rather be able to leave an abusive marriage without being looked down on or shunned by my community, family, and friends than have to stay just because I'm expected to.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Cado

(Full disclosure: I started cooking my own meals, doing my own laundry, setting my own bed time, along with a number of other, smaller things when I was 13. Frankly, I think that anyone who goes past that age without doing all of that (or at least being able to) is being coddled or kept artificially immature.)

From a female perspective, you are rare. There are so many guys who have had mothers who do everything for them, that they don't even do these basic things...and are therefore a nightmare to have as a partner...if you have feminist tendencies (like I do). I actually place the responsability on mothers to stop doing everything for their sons and treating them like little emperors and start encouraging self-reliance from a young age, so they are 'trained'for when they become adults and enter into real relationships with women.

Whole generations of boys growing into supposed adults but expecting their girlfriends to do all the basics. I'd rather be single.

In my particular case, I've never been lectured or what have you when I've been around my parents for prolonged periods-I'm stubborn. They came to the realization they had no control over me while I was still a teenager and we're on much more equal terms as a result. The kicker for me is the psychological impact-I'm still uniquely affected by my mother. If she had more of a spine I'd probably have to avoid her altogether-either that or our relationship would be somehow healthier. There's a total lack of conflict there and that's not a good thing in this case.

Mine just won't enter into any sort of confrontation when it comes to conflict that rises, so passive-aggression is her method of "coping"...or just simply, the silent treatment, which is her favorite method of punishment. She thinks I crave conflict when really I'm just more willing to face it head on than she is, so we can move past it...which to me, is a healthy way of dealing with it.

I don't think anyone wants to hate or be hated by their relatives-especially their parents-but when parents are left high and dry they need to ask themselves: what did I do to bring this on myself? It's a hard question and it implies guilt, but it's a necessary antidote to saying, "I fed them, clothed them, sacrified for them..." because if they can't see things from their kid's point of view the relationship can't be healed.

Exactly!

Past a certain point there has to be some sort of bubble bursting so they come back down to earth and realize they are no longer gods to their kids, but just people who make mistakes...and respect is something that needs to be earned in life...it's not a given, and certainly not when they impose abuse on their kids consistently. Everything in life has consequences...and a person can only put up with so much.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by OptimistPrime

I looked it up, and "pokie" is short for "poker machine", which is what they're called in Australia and NZ.

Yes, Aussies are just lazy. They like to shorten everything. Names especially. You've got Johnno, Shazza(sharron), Bazza(Barry), Dazza(darren) etc.

Pokie is short for poker machines. It has nothing to do with the slots.

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by elucidate

From a female perspective, you are rare. There are so many guys who have had mothers who do everything for them, that they don't even do these basic things...and are therefore nightmare to have as a partner...if you have feminist tendencies (like I do). I actually place the responsability on mothers to stop doing everything for their sons and treating them like little emperors and start encouraging self-reliance from a young age, so they are 'trained'for when they become adults and enter into real relationships with women.

Whole generations of boys growing into supposed adults but expecting their girlfriends to do all the basics. I'd rather be single.

Yup. I totally agree. Whenever my husband can't do something, I tend to treat him like a child (which he hates ) but seriously if you can't do some basic household chore by the time you're a grown man there's something seriously wrong.

I don't even deliberately treat him like a child...I'm just...used to dealing with kids and their "I don't know how to fold clothes/turn on the washing machine/stack the dishwasher" that when he comes out with something like that, he gets the same sort of response from me (that usually revolves around using a bit of common sense, because it ain't brain surgery!!).

Now to be fair, I probably don't put enough onus on any of my kids to help out around the house (cause I don't like nagging) but the boys both like to cook (and will voluntarily make biscuits and stuff like that for fun), and can use a vacuum, and do other basic stuff.

But yeah, the older they get, the more I expect them to be able to do... because it's not difficult. No one really taught me how to clean, I just figured it out.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by votoshka

Yup. I totally agree. Whenever my husband can't do something, I tend to treat him like a child (which he hates ) but seriously if you can't do some basic household chore by the time you're a grown man there's something seriously wrong.

Absolutely! We wouldn't have to talk to them like they were kids if they didn't act like they were.

I don't even deliberately treat him like a child...I'm just...used to dealing with kids and their "I don't know how to fold clothes/turn on the washing machine/stack the dishwasher" that when he comes out with something like that, he gets the same sort of response from me (that usually revolves around using a bit of common sense, because it ain't brain surgery!!).

I'd have trouble not slapping anyone who tried that with me.

I'd at the very least give them the "ÿou're pathetic"stare.

Now to be fair, I probably don't put enough onus on any of my kids to help out around the house (cause I don't like nagging) but the boys both like to cook (and will voluntarily make biscuits and stuff like that for fun), and can use a vacuum, and do other basic stuff.

Well, that's something at least.

But yeah, the older they get, the more I expect them to be able to do... because it's not difficult. No one really taught me how to clean, I just figured it out.

It's not difficult at all....they just don't like doing it, and if someone else always does it for them, why would they ever take the initiative?

[russianrocket]

I don't think I've met a single women who can do the "guy" things around the house, and even more, a women who actually would do them.

So, you girls can do the dishes and the laundry and the cleaning, and we'll fix stuff, go on top of the roof to replace a shingle, go up into the nasty attic to remove the rat, take out the trash, and mow the lawn in the 100 degree summer heat. You don't want us doing the laundry or dishes or cleaning. We will either do it wrong, and mess stuff up, or do it half assed. Just give it up already lol.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

I don't think I've met a single women who can do the "guy" things around the house, and even more, a women who actually would do them.

So, you girls can do the dishes and the laundry and the cleaning, and we'll fix stuff, go on top of the roof to replace a shingle, go up into the nasty attic to remove the rat, take out the trash, and mow the lawn in the 100 degree summer heat. You don't want us doing the laundry or dishes or cleaning. We will either do it wrong, and mess stuff up, or do it half assed. Just give it up already lol.

Hey, I actually just got done unbolting a toilet BY MYSELF and unclogging the pipe underneath (because my children flushed the brush to my vaccum down it and stopped the whole thing up), replacing the wax seal, and rebolting it to the floor.

When you are raised in a house full of women and you are poor, you better damn WELL know how to do man tasks.

EDIT: I also built all the doors on my cabinets all by myself using a radial arm saw. HEHEHE...I'm proud of my manlyness.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

I don't think I've met a single women who can do the "guy" things around the house, and even more, a women who actually would do them.

So, you girls can do the dishes and the laundry and the cleaning, and we'll fix stuff, go on top of the roof to replace a shingle, go up into the nasty attic to remove the rat, take out the trash, and mow the lawn in the 100 degree summer heat. You don't want us doing the laundry or dishes or cleaning. We will either do it wrong, and mess stuff up, or do it half assed. Just give it up already lol.

I've taken the trash out plenty of times. I've also removed dead mice from my bedroom, and spiders I remove myself, replaced lightbulbs,remove that awful build up of hair that gets clogged in the shower drain, mown the lawn (although technically my father wouldn't let me ride on the mower as it was a "Man's job") I even don't mind if the guy leaves the toilet seat up, as it's easy to just put down. I've even used a jackhammer before, laid bricks down, mixed concrete and laid fibreglass.

I even open the door for men if I'm the one in front.

[russianrocket]

Have I met you girls? nope. My statement stands


But, either way, my second point is still valid. We will make your whites pink, and your dedicates will disappear like that one sock that never seems to make it's way back into your sock drawer. Your dishes will never be spotless again

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Have I met you girls? nope. My statement stands


But, either way, my second point is still valid. We will make your whites pink, and your dedicates will disappear like that one sock that never seems to make it's way back into your sock drawer. Your dishes will never be spotless again

While I find this statement to be very true based on my own experience with my husband, your in depth knowledge of the issues involved makes me very suspicious as to how much you guys ACTUALLY don't know and how much you just PRETEND not to know when it comes to household chores.

hmmmm...I smell a conspiracy here.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by elucidate

From a female perspective, you are rare. There are so many guys who have had mothers who do everything for them, that they don't even do these basic things...and are therefore a nightmare to have as a partner...if you have feminist tendencies (like I do). I actually place the responsability on mothers to stop doing everything for their sons and treating them like little emperors and start encouraging self-reliance from a young age, so they are 'trained'for when they become adults and enter into real relationships with women.

Whole generations of boys growing into supposed adults but expecting their girlfriends to do all the basics. I'd rather be single.

You know, I hear that a lot, but I'd be hard pressed to point to any guy over 18 in my life who's actually like that. I know plenty who don't like to do it or don't want to do it, but none that can't actually heat a can of beans or wash their laundry. Did these guys go straight from living with their mother to living with their girlfriends?

Originally Posted by russianrocket

I don't think I've met a single women who can do the "guy" things around the house, and even more, a women who actually would do them.

So, you girls can do the dishes and the laundry and the cleaning, and we'll fix stuff, go on top of the roof to replace a shingle, go up into the nasty attic to remove the rat, take out the trash, and mow the lawn in the 100 degree summer heat. You don't want us doing the laundry or dishes or cleaning. We will either do it wrong, and mess stuff up, or do it half assed. Just give it up already lol.

True to an extent, it's a two-way street. That said, fewer and fewer guys know how to use tools and be handy around a house, too. My partner is very handy and I didn't realize until I moved in with him how little I, and everyone I had lived with until then, knew (I'm not talking basic stuff like changing a lightbulb or unclogging the toilet though, not being able to do that is at the same level of ridiculousness as not knowing how to microwave leftovers or turn on the washing machine. Stuff that's a bit more involved, like fixing / building furniture from scratch or redoing the roof or the electrical wiring.)

Not that I had never tried to learn, but it is a lot more difficult when you have to follow a written tutorial and are missing half the tools you need, than if you have a parent to walk you through it and a well-equipped workshop.

By the way, what's the deal with taking out the trash being a gendered chore?? I've never heard of that except in the US.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Those other countries might have low divorce rates, and high rates of kids staying at home, but I don't know if those two things are really connected.

There is a clear mathematical connection, no?

If your parents are together, there are only two permutations. You can either:

(1) stay with them; or
(2) not stay with them.

If your parents are not together, there are three permutations. You can either:

(a) stay with mum (in which case you cannot stay with dad);
(b) stay with dad (in which case you cannot stay with mum); or
(c) stay with neither.

In a society with many divorces, the probability of (a) and (b) greatly increases, that is,

there are many dads who don't get to stay with their kid because the kid is staying with the mum; and/or

there are many mums who don't get to stay with their kid because the kid is staying with the dad.

[russianrocket]

and?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Yes, Aussies are just lazy. They like to shorten everything. Names especially. You've got Johnno, Shazza(sharron), Bazza(Barry), Dazza(darren) etc.

Pokie is short for poker machines. It has nothing to do with the slots.

Also "chooks" for chickens

"barbies" for barbecues

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

and?

and so, it is not surprising that many Americans do not stay with their parents. Since their parents do not even stay together.

[OptimistPrime]

Originally Posted by aelle

By the way, what's the deal with taking out the trash being a gendered chore?? I've never heard of that except in the US.

Americans throw away a lot more stuff than other people do, so hauling trash requires Herculean strength.

Just kidding.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by OptimistPrime

Americans throw away a lot more stuff than other people do, so hauling trash requires Herculean strength.

Just kidding.

I think there is SERIOUS truth to that statement! At least for my family. I realized how badly we were doing this before and kind of went on a crazy reuse and recycle spree. No more seperately packaged food and drink items, no more Walmart bags, veggies and fruits go in compost now and meat in the woods for the wild animals to eat. Can even take a big container to the pet store now and refill it with food instead of buying a whole new bag each time. I think our trash output has dwindled down to less than half it was 6 months ago.

Americans do make a lot of trash.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by momo3bur

While I find this statement to be very true based on my own experience with my husband, your in depth knowledge of the issues involved makes me very suspicious as to how much you guys ACTUALLY don't know and how much you just PRETEND not to know when it comes to household chores.

hmmmm...I smell a conspiracy here.

Eggsactly!

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by aelle

You know, I hear that a lot, but I'd be hard pressed to point to any guy over 18 in my life who's actually like that. I know plenty who don't like to do it or don't want to do it, but none that can't actually heat a can of beans or wash their laundry. Did these guys go straight from living with their mother to living with their girlfriends?

Sure, it's not every guy out there who is like this. I'm sure they need to learn to do all these things when at uni and travelling etc. My father has always done his own washing and ironing, and cooked at times...sometime better than mum. He lived on his own for 4 days out of the week commuting interstate for work the whole time we were growing up though, so he pretty much had to

I've heard so many women go on about how hopeless their men are and how they never do anything, though I suppose it's true that I haven't seen them in their daily lives together so I couldn't say for sure, and I haven't heard the men's side of things either.

I've met some men who share household stuff and cook, and I've had a couple of boyfriends who did cook.

Actually, now that I really think about it, I've known some men who do actually share the load, and some who don't.

I guess it's a cultural thing as well, in some cases. Many Italian mamma's raise their boys like they are little princes and do everything for them, and the girls are trained to do everything from a young age, when it comes to household stuff. I think it happens in Greek families to some extent as well, and maybe other ethnicities...

So yeah, you're right. It might not happen as much as I recall it was happening back when I was 18 and having all these thoughts from observing the boys I did know. Things are changing so much.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Also "chooks" for chickens

"barbies" for barbecues

Yes...we're incredibly lazy as a nation, though we like to call it "laid back" to make it seem like it's a good thing.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I've heard so many women go on about how hopeless their men are and how they never do anything, though I suppose it's true that I haven't seen them in their daily lives together so I couldn't say for sure, and I haven't heard the men's side of things either.

I wonder if it's one of these tropes that we tend to repeat about our partners whether they're true or not, just because it gives a ready-made excuse to b<3tch about them without having to think too hard. Like that, we women can all complain about how useless men are and all be miserable together and not give a thought to whether it's true and whether we want to do something about it. I like what this lady has to say about it: It's not about the mayonnaise: stop using tired tropes when complaining about your partner | Offbeat Bride

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by aelle

I wonder if it's one of these tropes that we tend to repeat about our partners whether they're true or not, just because it gives a ready-made excuse to b<3tch about them without having to think too hard. Like that, we women can all complain about how useless men are and all be miserable together and not give a thought to whether it's true and whether we want to do something about it. I like what this lady has to say about it: It's not about the mayonnaise: stop using tired tropes when complaining about your partner | Offbeat Bride

I'm sure it's possible. Thanks for pointing that out to me aelle. Sometimes we can get brainwashed by what people say if they say it often enough, and forget there are two sides to the story, and women like to ♥♥♥♥♥ a lot, especially about men.

And it goes both ways as well. Men love to ♥♥♥♥♥ about us being so nagging all the time, when half the time we are trying to get them to pay attention and help us out, but they choose to see it as nagging them by annoying them with talking about stuff that needs to be done. Then again, I remember my mother annoying the crap out of me with the way she would talk.

I guess it can come down to communication issues at the end of the day, on both sides. men interpreting us wrong and we interpret them wrong as well.

Then again, some women are really controlling, and some men can be that way too.

I hear it at work a lot, though it is always presented as the woman being the victim of an insensitive male and how devoted she is and sacrificing, and after a while you get drawn into her web of feeling emotionally like she is being taken advantage of...when really it's more like she probably just doesn't say no often enough to unreasonable demands, and instead of learning to become more assertive, she instead prefers to get attention from workmates who feel sorry for her and re-affirm how useless men are.

I try really hard to stay out of it...which is probably why they think I'm odd. I don't get involved in their lives but they really do ♥♥♥♥♥ a lot about their men there...only one woman doesn't. Two in particular are always coming in complaining about some slight that has been done to them by people or by husband, but in subtle ways as though they don't really mind.

Gives them something to talk about. Thanks for the reminder...I was starting to feel like an alien there, but really I'm doing the right thing by not getting involved.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Then again, some women are really controlling, and some men can be that way too.

Oh, of course! People can be flawed, and this flaw can just happen to fit a gender stereotype. What I see as problematic is the systemic judgement (do we look for uselessness in our male partners? Do they try to interpret or dismiss what we say as nagging or control?) Also, I'm bothered by the helplessness in this trope: "Oh, men! (sigh!) You know how they are! (eyeroll) Completely useless! (throw up your hands in the air) Useless useless! But what are you going to to about it, that's how they are, boys will be boys (sigh)..."

Nope. I expect better.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by aelle

Oh, of course! People can be flawed, and this flaw can just happen to fit a gender stereotype. What I see as problematic is the systemic judgement (do we look for uselessness in our male partners? Do they try to interpret or dismiss what we say as nagging or control?) Also, I'm bothered by the helplessness in this trope: "Oh, men! (sigh!) You know how they are! (eyeroll) Completely useless! (throw up your hands in the air) Useless useless! But what are you going to to about it, that's how they are, boys will be boys (sigh)..."

Nope. I expect better.

Yes, yes. Thankyou so much for bringing me back to reality on this.
I really dislike this about some women, and I can see how many men find them confounding when they do this.

It's kinda cowardly really. They could just make the commitment to become better at communicating or learning to be more assertive, but the payoffs for being this way are that they get all this sympathy and female comeraderie.

I really don't like it at all.

I'm SO glad I won't be working there much longer.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by aelle

Oh, of course! People can be flawed, and this flaw can just happen to fit a gender stereotype. What I see as problematic is the systemic judgement (do we look for uselessness in our male partners? Do they try to interpret or dismiss what we say as nagging or control?) Also, I'm bothered by the helplessness in this trope: "Oh, men! (sigh!) You know how they are! (eyeroll) Completely useless! (throw up your hands in the air) Useless useless! But what are you going to to about it, that's how they are, boys will be boys (sigh)..."

Nope. I expect better.

LOL! I think most of what we were talking about was just joking to hit back at RR's joke simply because the opportunity arose, but some ladies are like that.

My husband really does pretend to be incompetent concerning housework, though, and that is being completely honest with you. He refuses to do laundry because he says he doesn't know how to use the machines and if he cleans, it usually consists of picking things up off the floor, placing them on coffee tables or surfaces close by, then vaccuming and replacing all said objects.

These things do not bother me, though, because he also works 60-80 hours per week. If he does not want to clean, he shouldn't have to. My role is a typical housewife and that is something I don't mind a single bit (except on laundry days). I enjoy being the person who is responsible for the household. I think I would rather work, but impossible right now with so many small children, so for now I don't expect him to clean or anything. Just how the distribution of duties go in my particular home.

As a matter of fact, because he is gone so much, I do the "man" jobs around here like taking out the trash and mowing the lawn, weedeating, etc., as well. It's fine. Just like the toilet last night. LOL! It would have been nice to have him to take the sucker apart and hoist it into the bathtub, but hey whatever. It's just how it works here. I have some few extra "man" skills for whenever I need them and HOPEFULLY (for his sake) if he ever needs "woman skills," he's only pretending not to know how to use a washer and dryer.

I think women complain, in what I've seen with my friends, more out of a way to kind of highlight how helpless their husbands are...it's hard to explain. I've often wondered about it, but my friends will have an entire burst of conversation based on the things their husbands can't do or won't do. It's almost a reminder (for those of us who are housewives) of why we are important because at times it is very hard to FEEL important when you basically have the role of babysitter/chef/maid. So my conclusion on reasoning for this behavior is that it's a bit of a self-worth booster, as silly as that sounds.