"Living with your parents is called childhood."

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

I haven't participated here in a while, but this particular issue just galls me:
When I was a child, the 'adult's thinking was: Cant wait 'til she can take care of herself. - Then at age 13 I was sent to the USA, where at only age 15 I was forced by mom to work FULL-time, while just starting hi-school (& for the only time in school, I started failing because I was comatose during school hours, because of working daily from 1500-2340. <- That is child-abuse on so many levels.
Then,
the very daughter, who I protected (from being by the AMA aborted), and who I lovingly nurtured & raised, & homeschooled on sheer FUN, so she could graduate from college with honors while only 17, - when she got married, she said to me: "Mom should anything ever happen to you, you can't come here to recover. Sorry."

So, because of medical malpractice I have needed a place where in fact I can recover. I can't even begin to describe, what it feels like to be abandoned, no less by the very people who you gave your life for, to protect.

Well, this is just another post to explain why I don't much come here anymore, aside the fact that most people don't bother responding, at the same time that I have positively encouraged so many here.

Oh well, carry on!

That sounds pretty rough all right. I know the feeling of being abandoned, and it's not pleasant.

It doesn't mean that the people here who have 'abandoned' their parents were nurtured and cared for in the same way as it sounds like you cared for your daughter. It also doesn't mean that a person cannot be nurturing and caring and ALSO be totally toxic. I'm not saying that's the case for you here, so I mean no offense. My mother cared and nurtured us all as kids...and she is totally toxic. It's for my own self-preservation that I stay away from her.

What you said at the end though sounds like what a lot of parents use to manipulate their kids...the whole "I gave up my life for you and now look at how you repay me" argument is manipulative. Having kids was the choice of the parent, and it's not fair to then put the whammy on them later in life so they feel obligated.

Even the way you left your post sounded manipulative..."oh well, carry on" as though we are supposed to feel guilty for you not feeling like you want to stay here. It's like you want us all to feel bad and feel sorry for you. What's up with that?

As horrible as it sounds from your perspective, and as much as I can empathize with you, it doesn't mean that your situation is the same as other peoples, so why would you choose to not come back to this forum because other people express their own perspectives on the way they were treated at home? Why would that affect you, given that you have no inside knowledge of what went on in their homes? I'm not meaning for that to sound interrogative, but it got me wondering...

Some parents are genuinely horrific towards their kids. Staying around said parents would therefore be the absolute worst thing to do wouldn't it?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by momo3bur

It doesn't really apply to adults who have their own lives, own marriages, jobs, etc., yet tote their parents along in order to care for them. There is absolutely nothing adolescent about that whatsoever.

Important to also realise that it's about interdependence - mutually helping each other.

I don't see old people in my country being leeches on their adult children. Until they are really frail and ill and physically weak, they are still very interested in contributing and helping the family. The most obvious area is in looking after the grandkids.

In the USA, you would instead send your kids to a daycare centre or hire some teenager off the street to act as your babysitter. This really doesn't sound like a very attractive part of "independence" to me. Instead of depending on your own grandparents, you are depending on a daycare center or a teenaged stranger to look after your kids.

Secondly, I also don't typically see adult children living with their parents as leeches, because these adult children also contribute in their own ways. Typically they will give their parents some money every month, or they will take on the responsibility of paying for certain bills and expenses, eg power bill; water bill; groceries etc. If they don't do the housework themselves, they will pay for a maid to do the job.

There are many practical advantages, big and small, in living near each other, even if you do not actually live WITH each other. For example, once when my daughter was a baby, she fell ill and had to be hospitalised. My parents were of great help to me then, as they immediately stepped in to look after my son, while my wife and I camped at the hospital. Another kind of help that I give my parents - when they are away on holiday, I go to their apartment every day to walk the dog, feed the dog and water their plants. These are small things that just can't be done if I were living faraway from them.

One might say that in the USA, we would send the dog to a pet hotel. We have those here as well, but it just isn't the same. It's like sending your child to a daycare centre, instead of having family members to care for him or her.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I thought Sarah is in New Zealand though?

Aren't you in Singapore?

I am in Singapore. I think Sarah was here for some time, I guess she's left.

There are plenty of foreigners drifting in and out of Singapore - literally something like 50% of the population here are not citizens.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Important to also realise that it's about interdependence - mutually helping each other.

I don't see old people in my country being leeches on their adult children. Until they are really frail and ill and physically weak, they are still very interested in contributing and helping the family. The most obvious area is in looking after the grandkids.

In the USA, you would instead send your kids to a daycare centre or hire some teenager off the street to act as your babysitter. This really doesn't sound like a very attractive part of "independence" to me. Instead of depending on your own grandparents, you are depending on a daycare center or a teenaged stranger to look after your kids.

Secondly, I also don't typically see adult children living with their parents as leeches, because these adult children also contribute in their own ways. Typically they will give their parents some money every month, or they will take on the responsibility of paying for certain bills and expenses, eg power bill; water bill; groceries etc. If they don't do the housework themselves, they will pay for a maid to do the job.

There are many practical advantages, big and small, in living near each other, even if you do not actually live WITH each other. For example, once when my daughter was a baby, she fell ill and had to be hospitalised. My parents were of great help to me then, as they immediately stepped in to look after my son, while my wife and I camped at the hospital. Another kind of help that I give my parents - when they are away on holiday, I go to their apartment every day to walk the dog, feed the dog and water their plants. These are small things that just can't be done if I were living faraway from them.

One might say that in the USA, we would send the dog to a pet hotel. We have those here as well, but it just isn't the same. It's like sending your child to a daycare centre, instead of having family members to care for him or her.

I see your point here, but I think you're getting some kind of general idea of how Americans operate that is not exactly truthful.

Many Americans depend on their family to care for their children instead of sending them to daycare. You are in New Zealand, correct? The population is much smaller their than in America. Perhaps if you could use percentages of parents who rely on family members for childcare, pet care, etc., compared between both countries, you could be surprised. I don't know for sure, but I personally wouldn't be shocked if there wasn't much of a difference.

There are many, MANY people in America who would much rather be with their children than work or to have family member or friend care for their kids than a daycare center. If you took a poll amongst Americans on this forum with children, I would bet you almost all of them would rather a loved one care for their kids than send them to a daycare. I'll bet many of them do have care of than a daycare center.

My family and most of the people I know stay close to one another. Definitely close enough to spend quality time with each other and help support each other when the need arises. Perhaps not ALL of us, but I can say all my family are within a 1-4 hour drive of one another.

My mother actually babysat my dog for me last weekend.

I think there is some kind of stereotyping going on here regarding Americans that might not be entirely educated. No offense, but most of us don't just want to hire a random babysitter off the street. LOL. And most of us DO NOT do that. There are the exceptions, but I'm sure in New Zealand there are exceptions to that as well.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by elucidate

As horrible as it sounds from your perspective, and as much as I can empathize with you, it doesn't mean that your situation is the same as other peoples, so why would you choose to not come back to this forum because other people express their own perspectives on the way they were treated at home?

i read sk8's post as saying that she (he?) has a serious medical problem due to the medical malpractice, as a result of that, she (he?) isn't able to spend a lot of time in front of the computer anymore.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

I am in Singapore. I think Sarah was here for some time, I guess she's left.

There are plenty of foreigners drifting in and out of Singapore - literally something like 50% of the population here are not citizens.

Oh, ok. I thought you were in New Zealand, so population, etc., may not apply correctly to what I stated above.

Remember, please, that there is a cultural difference and there is a pro/con debate within each culture along with when compared to other cultures.

None is any BETTER than the other. I'm not sure why anyone would feel any differently, but I suppose when you're raised to feel a certain way that is not something easily looked past.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

i read sk8's post as saying that she (he?) has a serious medical problem due to the medical malpractice, as a result of that, she (he?) isn't able to spend a lot of time in front of the computer anymore.

I think you misread that. There was nothing mentioned about her not being able to spend much time in front of a computer...unless I misread it?

Sk8 said that her reason for not wanting to come back here is due to not feeling like people answer her posts here, even though she gives so much encouragement.

It seems as though sk8 is feeling unappreciated by folk here, though it's not being expressed directly. At least that is what I am picking up from her words.

[SarahLuvzYu]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

I am in Singapore. I think Sarah was here for some time, I guess she's left.

There are plenty of foreigners drifting in and out of Singapore - literally something like 50% of the population here are not citizens.

Wah? Nooo I've never been there, would be nice to though.

[ZephyrusX]

That sounds like an interesting topic. My mother and grandmother grew up and lived in England and they will tell me about their past living arrangements. It was still common for individuals and even family units to share households due to economic constraint when my mother was growing up. I sometimes wonder if living arrangements will ever develop that way here in Canada and the United States. I guess in a way it has. There are communes, but they are not the norm.

I think living in a commune definitely has its perks. In one of my psych intro classes, there were a group of women who all lived together and pooled their resources together to deal with issues that could not be resolved by the market or by the State. Child care was one of those issues. Apparently, they all took turns taking care of a child even if the child didn't belong to them. I definitely sensed that they had their own unique culture and way of being.

I think such an idea might clash with dominant ideas on living arrangements in North America though. Talking from a place of relative privilege, I really like living alone or living with my mother. It is quiet and stress free. I wouldn't want to live in a commune for no other reason other than the fact that I like my alone time and don't think I'd get it there.

Originally Posted by pyrogen

Therefore, there needs to be a third alternative, and that is a revisiting of the
intentional community. We don't need to get over our striving or inventiveness or even desire for privilege, IMo; we need to get over our fanatical need to live alone, and we must become social beings. If we do not do this, the innovative and educated people will disappear - because the conservatives, religious and people from other cultures -already know how to live communally-.

I'm inspired enough by this idea to consider doing a course of study around it;
it may be the topic of a Ph.D. down the road.

Some communities have made this work. The thing is, we hear far, far more about the failures. I don't feel that the solution is a rural self sufficient commune; I'm not thinking of any kind of communism in any sense of the term. What I'm interested in investigating is mainstreaming of the urban cohousing movement and a possible movement toward the urban arcology. There are already a number of cohousing organizations which vary in level of
"commune" similarity and the most successful seem to be those which have greater integration with their urban environments and which contribute to the culture and economy.

[ZephyrusX]

I'm sorry that you feel abandoned by your daughter and feel like you are not making the connections that you want on these forums. For what it is worth, I like seeing you post here.

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

I haven't participated here in a while, but this particular issue just galls me:
When I was a child, the 'adult's thinking was: Cant wait 'til she can take care of herself. - Then at age 13 I was sent to the USA, where at only age 15 I was forced by mom to work FULL-time, while just starting hi-school (& for the only time in school, I started failing because I was comatose during school hours, because of working daily from 1500-2340. <- That is child-abuse on so many levels.
Then,
the very daughter, who I protected (from being by the AMA aborted), and who I lovingly nurtured & raised, & homeschooled on sheer FUN, so she could graduate from college with honors while only 17, - when she got married, she said to me: "Mom should anything ever happen to you, you can't come here to recover. Sorry."

So, because of medical malpractice I have needed a place where in fact I can recover. I can't even begin to describe, what it feels like to be abandoned, no less by the very people who you gave your life for, to protect.

Well, this is just another post to explain why I don't much come here anymore, aside the fact that most people don't bother responding, at the same time that I have positively encouraged so many here.

Oh well, carry on!

[OptimistPrime]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

That sounds like an interesting topic. My mother and grandmother grew up and lived in England and they will tell me about their past living arrangements. It was still common for individuals and even family units to share households due to economic constraint when my mother was growing up.

Another interesting thing is that the whole "children leave home when they're 18" ethos isn't even that old, at least in my region of the United States. My mom and dad both lived with their parents until they were in their early and mid-twenties, respectively. My mom talks about how, when she was growing up, it was considered quite ordinary for people (especially women) to live with their parents until they got married and moved into a home of their own. Which makes sense, when you think about how many people back then got married right out of high school, or in their early twenties.

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I think living in a commune definitely has its perks. In one of my psych intro classes, there were a group of women who all lived together and pooled their resources together to deal with issues that could not be resolved by the market or by the State. Child care was one of those issues. Apparently, they all took turns taking care of a child even if the child didn't belong to them. I definitely sensed that they had their own unique culture and way of being.

Interesting!

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I think such an idea might clash with dominant ideas on living arrangements in North America though. Talking from a place of relative privilege, I really like living alone or living with my mother. It is quiet and stress free. I wouldn't want to live in a commune for no other reason other than the fact that I like my alone time and don't think I'd get it there.

Yeah, if it weren't for the fact that my parents both work outside the home and I thus have plenty of time to myself, I probably wouldn't find my current living situation workable. When I lived with my (retired) grandmother for a couple of years, it was hell because I almost never had the house to myself.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

I am starting to feel that "living on your own" is untenable, too, in the long run. The only reason it worked was during a very brief time with an artificially boosted economy. Living alone or with a partner has gotten so expensive that many of the most talented, inventive people are forced to struggle to make ends meet instead of do those activities which will actually contribute to happiness and to contribution toward society (and I don't consider working an ordinary job to be this). We are rapidly approaching a point where advanced education, writing a book, starting a business, or devoting any amount of time to non-work activity is something reserved for the privileged. Normal people do not even have time for their children anymore, and are forced to leave their children to be raised by the state in public schools which are increasingly merely nannies for working parents. And it is so unnecessary. More adults living in a tight knit community, would solve the problem so nicely.

Very valid point. There is this growing trend in Europe where college graduates don't move out from their parents' until their late 20s - early 30s, simply because they can't afford rent early in their career. And it is problematic in a society that has radically shifted the shames and expectations attached to living with your parents.

Originally Posted by pyrogen

Therefore, there needs to be a third alternative, and that is a revisiting of the intentional community. We don't need to get over our striving or inventiveness or even desire for privilege, IMo; we need to get over our fanatical need to live alone, and we must become social beings. If we do not do this, the innovative and educated people will disappear - because the conservatives, religious and people from other cultures -already know how to live communally-.

I'm inspired enough by this idea to consider doing a course of study around it;
it may be the topic of a Ph.D. down the road.

Some communities have made this work. The thing is, we hear far, far more about the failures. I don't feel that the solution is a rural self sufficient commune; I'm not thinking of any kind of communism in any sense of the term. What I'm interested in investigating is mainstreaming of the urban cohousing movement and a possible movement toward the urban arcology. There are already a number of cohousing organizations which vary in level of
"commune" similarity and the most successful seem to be those which have greater integration with their urban environments and which contribute to the culture and economy.

I love this. Actually, creative communal living solutions are sprouting out all over the place out of economical necessity. My recently-separated mom has been looking into it, turns out there's this big movement of divorced mothers rooming together.
I have this fantasy of communal child rearing, living with one or 2 other friend couples as a way to simplify chores and childcare, and develop new, more meaningful ways to relate to my close friends.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Guilt.
I had the same guilt trip by my parents, and I hated it.

Always telling me that all the work they put into me,
means I should take care of them when they get old.

Curiously,
since you don't even know me, as a precious individual,
let alone as a precious parent; how could you
possibly state, that your parents, and I, are the SAME ??

You couldn't wait to post that, your HATE for your own parents, that is.
On the internet, you are free to spew your hate, and get away with it.
Because tho you were not telling this to YOUR OWN parents, but
another parent, terribly hurt inside, who frankly you also don't give a damn about, whether I die, or I yet live.

And while I don't personally know your parents,
I do know me intimately as a Beloved human child of God, as a fun-loving girl,
as a very loving, & nurturing mommy, as a compassionate nurse for 40 years, as a passionate humanitarian, as a fun-loving iceskater, etc. & so forth.

And as a parent who, never once, mentioned to her
child: "You owe me, in case I need it". Never once.

Originally Posted by russianrocket

You chose to create a child.

True. I did. I wanted, & prayed for, & planned, & yearned
for this precious daughter for 17 years, before she came.

Originally Posted by russianrocket

"I deserve respect and for you to take care of me".
I'm sorry, but it doesn't work like that.
You're child didn't abandon you.
They went on to have their own life. Isn't that why you raised her?

True, I empowered her with my demonstrated... positively successful Attitudes, Behaviors, Courage, Determination, Excellence, Forgiveness, Goodness, Health, Independence, Joyfulness, Kindness, Love, Prayerfulness etc. etc. that she too would need to Succeed in her own family, raising her own children, as she now is with her own 2 precious daughters.

Originally Posted by russianrocket

I don't understand

this whole concept of having a child to take care of
so that you have someone to take care of you, or so that they have someone to love and love them back.
It happens all over the world, which is why we are so overly populated.

Given the hate you practice inside you, towards your own parents,
evidently keeps you from understanding ALOT of true & praiseworthy things

Such as the fact that, I spent my childhood, in a country where parents lovingly raised their children, and when the shoe went on the other foot, the children lovingly took care of their parents. - and NONE of this was out of guilt, either. - It was done this way because it is THE RIGHT way to live: Never an orphanage, never a Daycare, & never a Nursing home.

Originally Posted by russianrocket

tho I doubt my post will encourage you to come on here
more, it's how I feel about the situation.

lol

That you DONT care about another human being, but
only your own selfish self, came across loud & clear.

It wouldn't surprise me at all, in an accident somewhere,
hearing you yell: "pffft, let the old hag die, we have too many already!!"

And I don't find that, anything worth laughing over.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by momo3bur

I'm very sorry you've had to go through this.
I can't speak for your situation, but most of the families I know personally
would never have completely abandoned their parents, including my own grandfather:
we pay nearly $2000 a month just for his room
in a nice retirement village close to one of his daughters.

Thank you for at least some kind words, towards me.

And thank you for all that you are doing, for your (abusive) Grandpa.
Tho I would NEVER accept such help; because -
1. I won't be a 'burden' on anyone.
2. I will never agree to live in an "institution".

Originally Posted by momo3bur

I'm really sorry about what you're going through
and
the only thing I would recommend is finding out
WHY your daughter feels this way, and listen to what she has to say.

It's very simple: After I discovered, in absolute horror, that her father was a pedophile, I filed for divorce immediately.
She was tiny still, and I took her to a SAFE place, & as I said above she in freedom & safety, got to experience & experiment with her other homeschooled peers, life's fun pleasures, and all the things we enjoyed... together.

After she graduated college as a teen, she married her Sweetie, & at age 20 she already ran her own Business, they had bought a brand new home, and she was expecting...
when
she sent me THE letter: "Mom, I'm sorry you got stuck with a lousy human, but I got a good one. And I want my kids to have both grandparents together. So unless you agree to become Good-friends with dad, you will NEVER get to see your grandkids, and should something happen to you, you can not come here, to recover. I love you mom, you are the best. And life is not fair.

Her 1st. child is now 3, and I have never seen them. And she moved all they way across the country.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

Curiously,
since you don't even know me, as a precious individual,
let alone as a precious parent; how could you
possibly state, that your parents, and I, are the SAME ??

I'm not going to speak for rr here, but I do wish to point out to you that he did not say you and his parents are the same...he said, if you read his words again, that he had the same guilt trip!

You couldn't wait to post that, your HATE for your own parents, that is.
On the internet, you are free to spew your hate, and get away with it.
Because tho you were not telling this to YOUR OWN parents, but
another parent, terribly hurt inside, who frankly you also don't give a damn about, whether I die, or I yet live.

Where did he say he hated his parents exactly?

I saw only the mention of the insanity of the situation he was in...no mention of feeling hatred towards them. You have put words into his mouth and twisted the situation to make him look like he's horrible and full of hate.

This might be how he seems to you now, given that you are feeling hurt about your own situation, but I don't think that's the truth of the matter at all, but you aren't really looking at it from his point of view, or stepping into his shoes, and wanting us to do this with you.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

she sent me THE letter: "Mom, I'm sorry you got stuck with a lousy human, but I got a good one. And I want my kids to have both grandparents together. So unless you agree to become Good-friends with dad, you will NEVER get to see your grandkids, and should something happen to you, you can not come here, to recover. I love you mom, you are the best. And life is not fair.

I think your daughter definitely could have worded it a lot better than she did, if this is an accurate representation of what she did write...that would be AWFUL to be the one on the receiving end of that. It doesn't get much more of an emotional blackmail than that.

Her reasoning sounds pretty kooky too. I would think she'd not want him in the picture at all, instead of wanting him there just for posterity sake, so it looks like everything is happy family?

If it were me, I would not want my kids anywhere near a pedophile regardless of whether he's my father or not. It sounds like she is trying to have solid values, but is not really being reasonable or thinking rationally about her children's safety.

Has she received counselling from when her father did this to her?

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I think you misread that.

Sk8 said that her reason for not wanting to come back here
is due to not feeling like people answer her posts here,
even though she gives so much encouragement.

It seems as though sk8 is feeling unappreciated by folk here,
though it's not being expressed directly. At least
that is what I am picking up from her words.

Yes, you stated that correctly. And I apologize that
I ran 2 (unrelated) thoughts together in this thread.

It's just that someone asked me Why I don't come back so much anymore.
Well, I am fighting, on top of everything else, from becoming now homeless,
so I'm sorta running everything together in one post, when it really doesn't fit.

Apologies

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

Yes, you stated that correctly. And I apologize that
I ran 2 (unrelated) thoughts together in this thread.

It's just that someone asked me Why I don't come back so much anymore.
Well, I am fighting, on top of everything else, from becoming now homeless,
so I'm sorta running everything together in one post, when it really doesn't fit.

Apologies

Hey, don't worry about it.

It sounds like you are under a lot of stress right now and not getting much support? I've been homeless before, so I know what that's like and it ain't fun.

Even more reason to stick around where there is support,eh?

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Important to also realise that it's about interdependence
- mutually helping each other.
I don't see old people in my country being leeches on their adult children.
Until they are really frail and ill and physically weak,
they are still very interested in contributing and helping the family.
The most obvious area is in looking after the grandkids.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

In the USA, you would instead send your kids to a daycare centre or hire some teenager off the street to act as your babysitter. This really doesn't sound like a very attractive part of "independence" to me.

Well, any responsible parent is NOT gonna fish a strange/unknown teenager off the street, to babysit their kids.
That is just crazy! - And you're right about the blasted Day-care, & Pre-school.

My daughter NEVER was in one of those, even when I became a single parent.
I found work, at 1/2 my pay, so she could come to work with me; and
there, she learned all kinds of helpful skills, she was later thankful for.

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Secondly, I also don't typically see adult children living with their parents as leeches, because these adult children also contribute in their own ways.
Typically they will give their parents some money every month, or they will take on the responsibility of paying for certain bills and expenses, eg power bill; water bill; groceries etc.
If they don't do the housework themselves, they will pay for a maid to do the job.

As I already said above: I would never ask my daughter
to take CARE of me, or to pay for Utilities, or for spending money, or pay a maid to do housework.

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

There are many practical advantages, big and small, in living near each other, even if you do not actually live WITH each other.
For example, once when my daughter was a baby, she fell ill and had to be hospitalised. My parents were of great help to me then, as they immediately stepped in to look after my son, while my wife and I camped at the hospital.
These are small things that just can't be done if I were living faraway from them.

When my daughter was in the hospital at age 7, I CAMPED right next to her, and
made sure she got out of there ALIVE, & in record time.

But when I was forced this past June, also from medical malpractice into the hospital,
she said on the phone: "I hope you find someone to help you Mom, cause it's not gonna be me"

And as I always tell her: "Sweetie, I love you with every fiber of my soul, & heart. And I forgive you, and I wish for you ALL the joy your heart can hold, and more "

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

she said on the phone: "I hope you find someone to help you Mom, cause it's not gonna be me"

And as I always tell her: "Sweetie, I love you with every fiber of my soul, & heart. And I forgive you, and I wish for you ALL the joy your heart can hold, and more "

That just sounds so incredibly cold.

Do you think maybe she blames you for what happened with her father? Unless there is something you're not telling us about how you behaved towards her while raising her, there just doesn't seem to be any reason for this?

I guess it may come back to individuals though. Just because you were that devoted to her and would camp next to her in hospital, does not mean she is obliged to do the same for you, though it would be the nicer thing to do, no matter how much that may not make sense in the whole "treat other the way you want to be treated" sense.

Does she at least call and see how you are, now that you are in this situation with the threat of homelessness and illness?

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I'm sorry
that you feel abandoned by your daughter and
feel like you are not making the connections that you want on these forums.
For what it is worth, I like seeing you post here.

Hi Zephy
Well you see, there are facts, & there are feelings; & they are not the same.

FACTs: My daughter has abandoned me, & 99% of people here don't respond to me, even when I Positively-encouraged them. Life is not fair. People are selfish.

That she abandoned me tho, no less for the dysfunctional reason she did,
was Doubly painful for me to bear. But
then, she knows that. - and guess what: Ever since she wrote that letter, and
said what she said in June, she has had NO PEACE inside. -
So who, in the final analysis, is she really hurting with her folly, but her own self.

And the strangest thing is: Formerly, kiddo always lived as a parent's greatest JOY: she lived as loving as I,
she lived as happy as I, she lived as healthy as I, she lived as giving as I; we were like 2 birdies of the SAME feather.

I need to go on, as inevitably I always have, thru some of the most
gut-wrenching experiences humans suffer, at the hands of sick people. - Yet
somehow,
I always come back, Smiling. How? Well, you see, I FORGIVE
I forgive because when you think of it, this is the only course that makes sense. And
in the final analysis, I think there might be Reconciliation, in which kiddo will realize her folly, and
we will once again be the kind of (soul friends) we once shared in each others life...

Zephy Thanks for kind sentiments - & if you wanna help:
Share... in my *Ice-skating* thread, it means the world now to me, &
drag some others over, who also will egg me on... the
same way daughter & I shared, as GOOD friends...

THANKS!
.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by elucidate

That just sounds so incredibly cold.

Do you think maybe she blames you for what happened with her father?

It's like this: Mom, you're not the average dummy. You are really intelligent. But
you married a career-criminal, how could you not have known? - I've watched you read people accurately, whom you've never met before, so how could you have married that jerk!! - You really blew it that time, and don't give me this bit about how the Church talked you into it. My god!

Originally Posted by elucidate

I guess it may come back to individuals though.

Just because you were that devoted to her and would camp next to her in hospital, does not mean she is obliged to do the same for you, though it would be the nicer thing to do, no matter how much that may not make sense in the whole "treat other the way you want to be treated" sense.

I never asked her to 'camp' next to me, in the hospital. - I asked her only -
1. to be at least my Advocate, like I was for her.
2. May I come, even it's to stay in the shed outside, for 2 months.

But it's ok, I don't ask, anymore.

Originally Posted by elucidate

Does she at least call and see how you are,
now that you are in this situation with the threat of homelessness, and illness?

No.

And my Birthday is next month, the day after Thanksgiving. - Will I get a card?
I would be very Surprised, considering the last 5 years
I've had to call her, to find out how she liked the presents I sent to everyone...

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

It's like this: Mom, you're not the average dummy. You are really intelligent. But
you married a career-criminal, how could you not have known? - I've watched you read people accurately, whom you've never met before, so how could you have married that jerk!! - You really blew it that time, and don't give me this bit about how the Church talked you into it. My god!

I'm sure you have blamed yourself enough without copping it from her as well.

Plenty of very smart women have fallen for people like your ex. I've walked away from abusive boyfriends in the past and still ended up getting into relationships of sorts with men who were abusive towards me, even though I knew the signs, and I'm a pretty smart person. Even psychologists get duped all the time by psychopath's, and they are supposed to know exactly what to look for.

The point is, we're human and we make mistakes and we don't always see what is right in front of us. I'm sure your ex made it seem like he was a 'normal' man. These people wouldn't be able to do what they do if they didn't learn how to manipulate and make themselves appear normal. Maybe your daughter isn't really seeing things from your perspective right now because she is too lost in her own pain and darkness?

If you had no idea that he was what he was while you were married then it's not your fault at all...but that's a hard thing to reconcile with yourself, and it must be hard for her to reconcile with as well. She's hurt so she lashes out at you, and blames you.

It's really unfortunate...and I'm sorry you've had to go through this.

I never asked her to 'camp' next to me, in the hospital. - I asked her only -
1. to be at least my Advocate, like I was for her.
2. May I come, even it's to stay in the shed outside, for 2 months.

But it's ok, I don't ask, anymore.

Sure, I didn't mean that you asked her to camp out next to you, but it did sound a bit like you expected what you gave to her to be returned, and that's not an unreasonable thing to expect either by the way.

That's really hurtful.

No.

And my Birthday is next month, the day after Thanksgiving. - Will I get a card?
I would be very Surprised, considering the last 5 years
I've had to call her, to find out how she liked the presents I sent to everyone...

I don't know if there is anything I can say that will make it better for you right now, so I will leave it there. I'm learning a lot from your story though. I've been really stubborn about calling my own mother and father lately, but that has been for my healing, and there is some element of your story that is relevant to my own family story, so thankyou for that.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Important to also realise that it's about interdependence - mutually helping each other.

I don't see old people in my country being leeches on their adult children. Until they are really frail and ill and physically weak, they are still very interested in contributing and helping the family. The most obvious area is in looking after the grandkids.

In the USA, you would instead send your kids to a daycare centre or hire some teenager off the street to act as your babysitter. This really doesn't sound like a very attractive part of "independence" to me. Instead of depending on your own grandparents, you are depending on a daycare center or a teenaged stranger to look after your kids.

Secondly, I also don't typically see adult children living with their parents as leeches, because these adult children also contribute in their own ways. Typically they will give their parents some money every month, or they will take on the responsibility of paying for certain bills and expenses, eg power bill; water bill; groceries etc. If they don't do the housework themselves, they will pay for a maid to do the job.

There are many practical advantages, big and small, in living near each other, even if you do not actually live WITH each other. For example, once when my daughter was a baby, she fell ill and had to be hospitalised. My parents were of great help to me then, as they immediately stepped in to look after my son, while my wife and I camped at the hospital. Another kind of help that I give my parents - when they are away on holiday, I go to their apartment every day to walk the dog, feed the dog and water their plants. These are small things that just can't be done if I were living faraway from them.

One might say that in the USA, we would send the dog to a pet hotel. We have those here as well, but it just isn't the same. It's like sending your child to a daycare centre, instead of having family members to care for him or her.

I think you are seeing the whole world, through your OWN eyes, when in fact, reality is far different.

Ok, as far as grand parents. Well, a lot of people are grand parents at 40 years old, and up. That's still working age. So, everyone you are saying is a bad person for sending their kids to day care or having a baby sitter, doesn't have retired parents to take care of their kids for them. My dad is 65, so it's different for him, because his adult children were pretty much in his house till their 30's, and never had their own lives until they move out. So only now, does he get to take care of grand children, once he's actually retired.

And adult children. I don't remember my brothers contributing very much toward the household. Either way, it wasn't so much co dependence. They didn't cook or clean anything. If they paid for food, then that doesn't help the household. That just helps themselves. And these were mature people by the way. Not leeches like you'd normally see from adult children living at home.

In countries where it's the norm, things are different tho. Not only are you shamed into not leaving the house, you'd be shamed by being lazy. Parents are guilt machines. You can't leave because they'll make you feel guilty, yet you feel guilty staying. And that's exactly what it seems like you are doing. Making us seem like horrible people for wanting to be further away. I believe in being independent, before you should ever become co-dependent. But, in most of those countries, you're usually married off before you ever become independent. They have no clue what independence even means.

You see advantages in living in the same house, or close, yet a lot of us see disadvantages. You have a great relationship with your parents. That's great for you. Not everyone does. Only recently have I even wanted to be near my dad, but living with him was horrible, mainly because of my step mom.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

I think you are seeing the whole world, through your OWN eyes, when in fact, reality is far different.

I've been saying the same to him for a while. The world according to ALG is vastly different to how things are for the rest of the world outside his bubble of life.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

That sounds like an interesting topic. My mother and grandmother grew up and lived in England and they will tell me about their past living arrangements. It was still common for individuals and even family units to share households due to economic constraint when my mother was growing up. I sometimes wonder if living arrangements will ever develop that way here in Canada and the United States. I guess in a way it has. There are communes, but they are not the norm.

I think living in a commune definitely has its perks. In one of my psych intro classes, there were a group of women who all lived together and pooled their resources together to deal with issues that could not be resolved by the market or by the State. Child care was one of those issues. Apparently, they all took turns taking care of a child even if the child didn't belong to them. I definitely sensed that they had their own unique culture and way of being.

I think such an idea might clash with dominant ideas on living arrangements in North America though. Talking from a place of relative privilege, I really like living alone or living with my mother. It is quiet and stress free. I wouldn't want to live in a commune for no other reason other than the fact that I like my alone time and don't think I'd get it there.

Unfortunately with situations like that, there is always a big chance that someone will get slighted, and then feel stuck. I live with two people, and it ain't a cake walk that's for sure. It's even worse, because a lot of times you have to old your tongue, because saying something will make things tough for many months to come. You also have to have someone in charge, and those persons decisions have to mesh with everyone.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I'm not going to speak for rr here, but I do wish to point out to you that he did not say you and his parents are the same...he said, if you read his words again, that he had the same guilt trip!



Where did he say he hated his parents exactly?

I saw only the mention of the insanity of the situation he was in...no mention of feeling hatred towards them. You have put words into his mouth and twisted the situation to make him look like he's horrible and full of hate.

This might be how he seems to you now, given that you are feeling hurt about your own situation, but I don't think that's the truth of the matter at all, but you aren't really looking at it from his point of view, or stepping into his shoes, and wanting us to do this with you.

You are 100% correct. No where did I say I hated my parents, or showed any type of hate for anyone. I don't hate people. That's not me. I'm in a Jewish family. Guilt is just par for the course. Doesn't mean I hate my dad for it. I know completely, that he did his absolute best in raising me. If it didn't always work out the way I wanted to, it doesn't mean that HE was out to get me, or didn't do the best that he could. Getting so riled up at me ( not saying my post wasn't worthy of it) shows that she has things to work out on her own.

And again, you are correct. I didn't say my parents were the same as her. Just the guilt trip was exactly the same.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

I'm in a Jewish family. Guilt is just par for the course.

haha...I've heard about jewish mothers.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by elucidate

haha...I've heard about jewish mothers.

works with Jewish dads too.....

[James81]

Sk8joyful,

For the record, I rarely respond to your posts because they are structured in a weird way and your English seems clunky and hard to read. It has nothing to do with any personal feeling I have toward you...I think it's great that you contribute here when you've got so much going on in real life.

Just thought I'd mention that because I imagine that I'm not the only one who glides by you're posts because they are tough to read.

*********

to everybody else:

why is there such a negative vibe towards daycare? My kids go to daycare and they absolutely love it because they get to hang out and play with their friends. Judge the experience based on how your kids react to it and not how some judgmental people perceive it. It's your choice...ALWAYS.