"Living with your parents is called childhood."

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Whatever. We have one of the lowest tax rates in the world.

Not much of an actual response to the point, but ok. Where is this again?

[aelle]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Past a certain point, if kids haven't left the nest and gone out into the world, arrested development sets in.

In the West, yes, because by default the older generations are always caregivers to the younger ones. So staying with your mom is about not growing up and not learning to care for yourself.
If culturally the young generation is seen as a caregiver to the older one, it might actually be the adult, responsible thing to do.

Originally Posted by elucidate

It also sets up an unhealthy dynamic in the family in my opinion.

That's something I struggle with. I absolutely see it as unhealthy when a mother's opinion comes before the spouse's, or when parents meddle in their children's marriages, etc. That's something that would be a dealbreaker in my relationship.
But I can see how a culture where blood ties are strongest would see it as positive to maintain a good relationship with your parents, for as long as they live, even if at the expense of your marriage. I can't see how either world view is superior to the other.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Can you honestly say that 10+ people all sharing a small apartment in china is a healthy option? They may eat well, but I think there lifestyles breed mental unwellness in some capacity.

If they were in the rural population - it would be more like they live in several different houses, all within walking distance of each, in the same village.

But your point is different. Your point is about physical space. Now if a place is too small for its occupants - it's too small. Doesn't matter whether it's 2 or 4 or 6 or 10 people living in it.

This is quite different from the topic that we're discussing here. Steve didn't say "Living with your parents is childhood - unless the house is big enough."

--------

I have noticed a certain very large house in my neighbourhood. Actually it used to be two big houses, each with a large garden. I think that the folks bought both houses, tore down the fence and rebuilt it into a single residence.

It's one of those super-extended families - there are grandparents, parents, kids, great-grand-kids, dogs, maids etc all living there. I often see them when I walk past in the evenings at dinner-time, they use two large dining tables (unless they're doing the barbecue thing in the gardens, then they just sit around). There should be 10+ people living there.

That's how many Asians would do it, if they could afford it.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Just like everything in the animal kingdom, there comes a time when they need to head out on their own and face the world.

That depends on what kind of animal you are.

Elephants, lions, wolves, dolphins, gorillas and chimpanzees are some examples of animals where many adults live together.

The term "alpha male" in fact comes from the social behaviour of males, in some of these species (eg the gorilla and the wolf). Not "wimpy male" or "dependent adult".

The alpha male takes on the responsibility of leading the pack. Not merely caring for himself, or just "moving out".

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by aelle

In the West, yes, because by default the older generations are always caregivers to the younger ones. So staying with your mom is about not growing up and not learning to care for yourself.
If culturally the young generation is seen as a caregiver to the older one, it might actually be the adult, responsible thing to do.

I can see how it would work for families that depend on the children being the caregiver. If they accept that as their given role without complaint.

That's something I struggle with. I absolutely see it as unhealthy when a mother's opinion comes before the spouse's, or when parents meddle in their children's marriages, etc. That's something that would be a dealbreaker in my relationship.
But I can see how a culture where blood ties are strongest would see it as positive to maintain a good relationship with your parents, for as long as they live, even if at the expense of your marriage. I can't see how either world view is superior to the other.

Yeah, I don't think either one can be viewed as superior, it's just the way it is in different cultures, and neither one could understand how the other can do what they do because it's the norm for them.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

If they were in the rural population - it would be more like they live in several different houses, all within walking distance of each, in the same village.

But your point is different. Your point is about physical space. Now if a place is too small for its occupants - it's too small. Doesn't matter whether it's 2 or 4 or 6 or 10 people living in it.

This is quite different from the topic that we're discussing here. Steve didn't say "Living with your parents is childhood - unless the house is big enough."

Yes true. I think I just expanded on it and went off on a tangent...again.

--------

I have noticed a certain very large house in my neighbourhood. Actually it used to be two big houses, each with a large garden. I think that the folks bought both houses, tore down the fence and rebuilt it into a single residence.

It's one of those super-extended families - there are grandparents, parents, kids, great-grand-kids, dogs, maids etc all living there. I often see them when I walk past in the evenings at dinner-time, they use two large dining tables (unless they're doing the barbecue thing in the gardens, then they just sit around). There should be 10+ people living there.

That's how many Asians would do it, if they could afford it.

I'm sure, and they would probably be a lot happier if they could live this way.

[NoJobRob]

"Living with your parents is called childhood."

It depends on a lot of variables. That's a pretty over-generalized one-liner with plenty of unique situations to disprove it. When I got out of the military, my right leg was really messed up and I was undergoing treatment and was also hospitalized for a couple weeks. Does that mean that I regressed back into childhood? No, it doesn't. It means that I had just separated from the military, was injured, and needed to stay with my family for a while, no more, no less. There's nothing wrong, or childish/immature/slacker-like with that. In many cases, depending on the circumstances, it's indicative of someone being MORE of an adult (and more courageous) than most.

There's also a lot of people who have moved back in with their parents because of the economy. If you suddenly lost your job and couldn't pay your bills because you were broke, would you rather move back in with your family, or end up homeless? I think that's a no-brainer. And in these times people need to quit being so damn judgmental of others. There's a lot of people out there who have had some bad luck in the last few years, many of them through no fault of their own.

Now if he's talking about lazy bums who contribute nothing and spend all day playing video games and eating Cheetos, and do nothing to better their lives, then I agree. But like I said, it's a case by case thing. Making blanket statements is pretty unnecessary, plus they're rarely, if ever, correct. It only takes one instance of something not being true to make it untrue.

[Lioness]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

It's one of those super-extended families - there are grandparents, parents, kids, great-grand-kids, dogs, maids etc all living there. I often see them when I walk past in the evenings at dinner-time, they use two large dining tables (unless they're doing the barbecue thing in the gardens, then they just sit around). There should be 10+ people living there.

That's how many Asians would do it, if they could afford it.

I think there are many benefits to living like this, if you are very family oriented (and don't mind everybody in your business). I think the problem is when adults kids are still living with mom and dad AND financially dependent on them, or taking advantage of them.

I read that '"Mammoni" is what the Italians are calling their spoiled sons, who stay home for mom's cooking, laundry service, and cheap or nonexistent rent. Although high unemployment in Italy is a factor, many of these men do work and date, but they won't leave home or marry. There's a problem in the US too, with grown kids, sometimes with a brood of their own kids, basically freeloading off the folks. And the economy is making it worse.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by aelle

Side story: my friend who teaches 2nd and 3rd grade here in Seoul watched the movie Up with her class. The kids had a really culturally interesting reaction to the introductory story. When the couple was shown to be infertile, they were puzzled but not sad. When they were shown to grow old without fulfilling their dreams, no reaction. When the old man's wife dies, no reaction. When the old man, who is now an increasingly incapacitated childless widower, has to be taken to a home since there's no one to care for him (which is supposed to be a comic scene) the children started openly weeping. They definitely know and have internalized very young what is socially expected of them.

I watched "Up" too.

Also it reminded me of another American movie - "Everybody's Fine", starring Robert de Niro (2009).

In this movie, Robert plays a senior citizen whose wife has passed away and whose 4 adult children have all grown up and moved out. Like the character in "Up", Robert lives all alone in his own house, with his memories.

One year, he tries to organise a Christmas family get-together. None of his children want to come. They don't particularly hate or dislike their father. It's just this "American independence" thing. They have their own lives to lead, and those lives don't really involve their old dad anymore. They make up all sorts of fake excuses to not come, and hide their real truths from him.

Robert is determined to see all his children and he goes through all kinds of trials and tribulations to achieve this. He travels around the country trying to visit his kids, to personally give each of them his handwritten Christmas invitation cards. He himself is not in very good health (and he gets mugged along the way in a subway station; loses his pills; gets lost in strange cities on his own, etc etc).

Finally he gets a heart attack, while on a plane. The plane lands in time, and he is rushed to hospital. Then only do the children decide that they should visit their father. The movie ends with Robert recovered ... It's Christmas time, and all the children come to celebrate with him, in his house, and they have a big fat turkey, blah blah blah.

I gather that this is supposed to be a heartwarming ending.

Personally I found it tragic. Goodness sakes, you have to have a freaking HEART ATTACK, before your children will come to visit you at Christmas?

I know that this is just a movie, but if it so happens that it is also a realistic depiction of American life, then I think American life is rather sad. I hate this movie - it makes me cry. Worst Robert de Niro movie ever.

Now, if this had been an Asian movie, the adult children would not be just coming to visit at Christmas time. They would be telling Dad, "Please Dad, come live with me, you're so lonely here, you are welcome to come stay with me."

Or they would be calling each other in November, telling each other, "Oooh, Christmas is coming, we gotta organise something for Dad, shall I fly him up to my home so that he can stay for two weeks? Will you come and bring all the kids?" etc.

Or one of them would have been staying 20 minutes' drive away from him, and visiting him every weekend.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Elephants, lions, wolves, dolphins, gorillas and chimpanzees are some examples of animals where many adults live together.

And meerkats. I love meerkats, they are the cutest things ever.


"Move out? Where?? Why??"

Cooperative behaviour among meerkat adults:

Meerkats demonstrate altruistic behavior within their colonies; one or more meerkats stand sentry while others are foraging or playing, to warn them of approaching dangers. When a predator is spotted, the meerkat performing as sentry gives a warning bark, and other members of the gang will run and hide in one of the many bolt holes they have spread across their territory. The sentry meerkat is the first to reappear from the burrow and search for predators, constantly barking to keep the others underground. If there is no threat, the sentry meerkat stops signaling and the others feel safe to emerge.

Meerkats also babysit the young in the group. Females that have never produced offspring of their own often lactate to feed the alpha pair's young, while the alpha female is away with the rest of the group. They also protect the young from threats, often endangering their own lives. On warning of danger, the babysitter takes the young underground to safety and is prepared to defend them if the danger follows. If retreating underground is not possible, she collects all young together and lies on top of them.

Their family mentality:

A group of meerkats is called a "mob", "gang" or "clan". A meerkat clan often contains about 20 meerkats, but some super-families have 50 or more members.

"Say cheeeeese .... One for the album!"

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

This IS leech mentality, and that is perhaps why Steve's statement is justified in American culture.

Staying with your parents just because you're broke, fired, got kicked out of your own place etc etc .... is quite leech-sounding to me, even though, depending on the circumstances, it may be that the person doesn't have a choice other than to be a leech, or that his parents don't mind being a leech-suckee.

Yeah, well, wouldn't it be up to the parents to decide if we're being Leechey or not?

I mean, they created us, and they've had more time to accumulate wealth than us, so if it's no inconvenience to them, why wouldn't they put up with us?

[James81]

It's also called "Living in China."

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by NoJobRob

"Living with your parents is called childhood."

It depends on a lot of variables. That's a pretty over-generalized one-liner with plenty of unique situations to disprove it. When I got out of the military, my right leg was really messed up and I was undergoing treatment and was also hospitalized for a couple weeks. Does that mean that I regressed back into childhood? No, it doesn't. It means that I had just separated from the military, was injured, and needed to stay with my family for a while, no more, no less. There's nothing wrong, or childish/immature/slacker-like with that. In many cases, depending on the circumstances, it's indicative of someone being MORE of an adult (and more courageous) than most.

I had a similar experience, and had it not been for very extenuating circumstances, I would not have moved back with them, but sometimes life throws curve balls and you have no other option.

It wasn't good for my mental health, put it that way.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by James81

It's also called "Living in China."

Indians are pretty heavily dependent on their families too.. and India + China is already, 2/6th the world's population

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

And meerkats. I love meerkats, they are the cutest things ever.


"Move out? Where?? Why??"

Cooperative behaviour among meerkat adults:



Their family mentality:




"Say cheeeeese .... One for the album!"

I really adore meerkats as well...they're the cutest of the cute in my book. (Don't tell anyone, but sometimes I even pretend I am one when I'm with friends who also act like meerkats for fun.)

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by James81

It's also called "Living in China."

How American - to know so little about the world outside America.

In 3 out of the world's top 4 most populous countries, living with parents is quite common. (If you don't know which are the 4 most populous countries in the world, do look it up). China is one of those 3 countries, but all three countries are culturally different from each other (no common language, very different religions etc).

Therefore to describe the matter as "living in China" is really very ill-informed.

The "moving out" mentality in the US is just a byproduct of its own history. 13 colonies, farmers spreading out across a vast unexplored land to get their own space etc (killing plenty of native Americans and using lots of black slaves from Africa along the way, but that's another story). American Old West, cowboys expanding into the frontier etc etc.

Culturally, you therefore grow up with the notion that being adult means going somewhere faraway from where you used to grow up. Very Laura Ingalls "Little House on the Prairie" and Huckleberry Finn-ish.

All good and well, but to a large extent, it's just your own idiosyncratic cultural notion, you see. And it already lost its original purposes. There isn't any more land for you to stake, just by moving out and getting there first. You aren't a cowboy, James, you're a school teacher.

[ZephyrusX]

I think it is a historical issue as well as regional. It is not as if the West was always characterized by these family trends. My English prof was telling us how it was normal for the oldest daughter in Ireland not to marry and to live with her parents and to care for them until they died during the 19th century. On second thought, may be this is a bad example. Back in those days, they may very well have thought of women as children.

Regardless of the regional or historical trends, I think it is important to recognize individual circumstances. I lived on my own for three years and it was really no big deal. I moved back in with my brother, and later, with my mother as I could no longer afford rent, but it is not as if I stopped growing magically simply because I live with my mom. We share expenses and responsibilities so it is not adequate to describe the relationship as leeching.

Originally Posted by ALG

Now, if this had been an Asian movie, the adult children would not be just coming to visit at Christmas time. They would be telling Dad, "Please Dad, come live with me, you're so lonely here, you are welcome to come stay with me."

I would do the same thing; I plan on doing the same thing, actually. My mother was very depressed living in Ontario alone so she eventually followed my brother and I to Alberta. Even when I do get a half decent, salaried job, I will not leave her or tell her to leave my house. I hear that it is very easy to get a reference librarian job in the United States, but unless I can bring my mother, that is out of the question. I will take the hard path and find a job in my city if I need to. Some Westerners will go over hells acre to accommodate their parents.

Interestingly, it is my mother who has the Western perspective on the matter. She keeps hinting that I ought to leave her as living together must be a burden upon my self. But yah, like I said before, I do not feel like that I have magically stopped growing emotionally, financially, spiritually just because I live with my mom.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

How American - to know so little about the world outside America.

In 3 out of the world's top 4 most populous countries, living with parents is quite common. (If you don't know which are the 4 most populous countries in the world, do look it up). China is one of those 3 countries, but all three countries are culturally different from each other (no common language, very different religions etc).

Therefore to describe the matter as "living in China" is really very ill-informed.

The "moving out" mentality in the US is just a byproduct of its own history. 13 colonies, farmers spreading out across a vast unexplored land to get their own space etc (killing plenty of native Americans and using lots of black slaves from Africa along the way, but that's another story). American Old West, cowboys expanding into the frontier etc etc.

Culturally, you therefore grow up with the notion that being adult means going somewhere faraway from where you used to grow up. Very Laura Ingalls "Little House on the Prairie" and Huckleberry Finn-ish.

All good and well, but to a large extent, it's just your own idiosyncratic cultural notion, you see. And it already lost its original purposes. There isn't any more land for you to stake, just by moving out and getting there first. You aren't a cowboy, James, you're a school teacher.

You don't think that the reason why China and Indian stays together is BECAUSE of such large populations, and money, and actual places to go?

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Personally I found it tragic. Goodness sakes, you have to have a freaking HEART ATTACK, before your children will come to visit you at Christmas?

You balk at the idea of family causing children to develop mental problems and such-well, at least when it comes to my father's side of the family, they can go %^&$ themselves. If my grandfather had another heart attack I wouldn't go visit him, and it's very likely that if one or both of my grandparents die I won't even be informed.

That's how I want it. They're utterly toxic to everyone in their sphere and the world will be better off without them. That was true for my father, and while I consider that a tragic turn the fact is his death was probably the best thing that could have happened to me. Under him I had no right to exist, and if that's what strong family bonds mean in my case then I'll redefine family and seek it elsewhere.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Cado

You balk at the idea of family causing children to develop mental problems and such-well, at least when it comes to my father's side of the family, they can go %^&$ themselves. If my grandfather had another heart attack I wouldn't go visit him, and it's very likely that if one or both of my grandparents die I won't even be informed.

That's how I want it. They're utterly toxic to everyone in their sphere and the world will be better off without them. That was true for my father, and while I consider that a tragic turn the fact is his death was probably the best thing that could have happened to me. Under him I had no right to exist, and if that's what strong family bonds mean in my case then I'll redefine family and seek it elsewhere.

I had the same thing with my grandmother, who lived with us. Drove my dad and step mom and me insane. Which causes my step mom to drive me and my dad insane. Just a big ball of insane . Sadly, everyone was better of when she died. She was toxic. My step mom was toxic. My life finally changed when I moved out. What finally snapped my dad out of it, was his heart attack last year.

[Riverstone]

"living with you parents is childhood"

For me, I still with with my parents at the age of 24, and although they do try to let me be independent, I still get treated like a child some times, and they still seem to think they have a right of control etc which a parent uses.

So for me, yes this statement sounds true.

I do however, like the closeness I have with them aswell.

If it was up to me, and I had enough money, I would buy at an estate and move my family to the estae, so they all have their own homes and independent lives, but still be close. (obviously i wouldnt force them to live there if they didnt want to).
I wouldnt mind living next door to my parents.

[russianrocket]

Being close to your family or living near them, is different then living with them. And it only works if they let you be independent. Unfortunately, most parents don't let you be independent if you are that close to one another.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

How American - to know so little about the world outside America.

In 3 out of the world's top 4 most populous countries, living with parents is quite common. (If you don't know which are the 4 most populous countries in the world, do look it up). China is one of those 3 countries, but all three countries are culturally different from each other (no common language, very different religions etc).

Therefore to describe the matter as "living in China" is really very ill-informed.

The "moving out" mentality in the US is just a byproduct of its own history. 13 colonies, farmers spreading out across a vast unexplored land to get their own space etc (killing plenty of native Americans and using lots of black slaves from Africa along the way, but that's another story). American Old West, cowboys expanding into the frontier etc etc.

Culturally, you therefore grow up with the notion that being adult means going somewhere faraway from where you used to grow up. Very Laura Ingalls "Little House on the Prairie" and Huckleberry Finn-ish.

All good and well, but to a large extent, it's just your own idiosyncratic cultural notion, you see. And it already lost its original purposes. There isn't any more land for you to stake, just by moving out and getting there first. You aren't a cowboy, James, you're a school teacher.

Jesus, dude, I was really just being a smartass. I think you need to get a grip and drop the lawyer schtick.

[ZephyrusX]

But... I think he enjoys it...

Originally Posted by James81

Jesus, dude, I was really just being a smartass. I think you need to get a grip and drop the lawyer schtick.

[Lioness]

I don't think one lifestyle is always better than the other. It's freeing and maturing to leave the nest, especially if your parents are the overbearing, smothering type. And there are plenty of parents who are glad to have the kids move out so thery can enjoy their own space, peace and quiet again.

But it's also great for the next generation to be able to run over to grandma's, and have aunts, uncles and cousins around too.

If it makes financial sense for extended family to live together, and everyone can cooperate, contribute to the household responsibilities and respect one another, it can work. But IMO, it's not the ideal. I think the best case scenario is to live with who you really want to live with. But if I had grown up in an extended family household, in a country where that is the norm, I might feel differently.

I think people should take care of their elderly/ill parents, unless there was an abusive relationship.

[momo3bur]

Hmmm...

I find this thread very interesting simply because my stepmother is Asian, originally reared throughout China and Taiwan, so I've seen both cultures try to exist together and argue over this exact subject first hand many, many times.

Not only that, but watching an Asian mother who tries to keep these cultural ideas intact raising a child in America is also very interesting. Her daughter took nearly 25 years, but she finally rebelled and practically lost her mind because she was allowed absolutely no independence in a world where it was expected of her.

Add that into the fact that my stepmother has somehow mixed all of this into being radically Christian. hmmm.

Anyway, neat to see everyone's opinions on this matter. Very, very interesting...

[Shift]

Can't help but notice this theme in North American culture where family is a burden that should be shipped off ASAP.

When we have kids, our freedom is gone.

When our kids legally become adults, it's time for them move out... ready or not.

When our parents get old, it's time for them to move into a nursing home.

Whatever we have to do to get rid of the burden of family, we'll do it.

Welcome to the most ass-backwards society on Earth.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Shift

Can't help but notice this theme in North American culture where family is a burden that should be shipped off ASAP.

When we have kids, our freedom is gone.

When our kids legally become adults, it's time for them move out... ready or not.

When our parents get old, it's time for them to move into a nursing home.

Whatever we have to do to get rid of the burden of family, we'll do it.

Welcome to the most ass-backwards society on Earth.

It's only ass backwards to you because you feel that the opposite should be the norm. Prove to us why YOU are right.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by Shift

Can't help but notice this theme in North American culture where family is a burden that should be shipped off ASAP.

When we have kids, our freedom is gone.

When our kids legally become adults, it's time for them move out... ready or not.

When our parents get old, it's time for them to move into a nursing home.

Welcome to the most ass-backwards society on Earth.

Hmmm...I'm not sure if it would be called ass-backwards in North America. LOL.

I do have to say that in my personal experience, although elderly parents often do live in nursing homes, etc., usually it is still the children supporting them. My grandmother lives on her own but my father still cares for her in everyway she will allow him. She would very much resent having to dependent on him or anyone else and would never choose to live with her children unless there was no other choice. Honestly, she's expressed to me that she'd rather live in a nursing home or retirement villiage than in one of her childrens' homes.

I've spent A LOT of time in nursing homes because my family works in them...somehow about half of my female family members ended up being nurses, therapists, etc., that work in nursing homes. My mother manages the business office in one. THEY AREN'T ALWAYS AS BAD AS THEY ARE MADE OUT TO BE! They can actually be quite nice and allow elderly people to be involved in social activities with their peers while still under medical supervision so they are safe. You just have to keep a good eye out and visit regularly and LISTEN to your parents instead of treating them like children!

It's simply just personal preference. Even my Asian stepmother's father refused to live with his children once he moved to America. They tried to MAKE him (because they treated him like a child and decided he wouldn't know any better) and he continuously urinated all over everyone's belongings when people weren't home until they *allowed* him to move into his own apartment. After this, he was just fine with accepting help from his children. In his own apartment, he was allowed to have liquor and prostitutes and live just like he did in Taiwan. LOL. No one to tell him NO.

Her mother on the other hand, loved living with her. She seemed to do very well and get along with everyone pretty well. She was very helpful in everyway and things were rather harmonious. She did irritate my father quite a bit because he felt as if he was married to his wife and her mother and "Popo" sp? seemed to also feel he was hers just as much as her daughters. LOL. But they all loved each other nonetheless.

I think people should be allowed to live as they please, do what makes them happiest, and be allowed to break the cultural norm if it means being able to peacefully exist with your family.

[ZephyrusX]

I think I would lose my mind if I had no independence living with my mother as well. Ideally, I try to think 'win-win' with her and make decisions together, though it doesn't always work that way. In Asian households, is it always the parents' decision that trumps all? I realize there are probably individual differences from household to household.

Originally Posted by momo3bur

Not only that, but watching an Asian mother who tries to keep these cultural ideas intact raising a child in America is also very interesting. Her daughter took nearly 25 years, but she finally rebelled and practically lost her mind because she was allowed absolutely no independence in a world where it was expected of her.