|08-21-2011, 04:35 PM||#2 (permalink)|
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Brisbane, Australia
I agree this thing is so illogical.
How Middle Class is the only acceptable and right way - rich extravagant or luxurious people are being bad. Because they have things they don't need.
But if they are bad, then the middle class is bad too.
Because the middle class buy things they don't need.
Why did they buy a TV when they could have given that money to charity?
Why did they buy those fancy plates or fancy shoes when they could have bought the bare minimum and no frills of everything and given the money to charity instead?
Why purchase carpet when you could just have a concrete floor and that money could have been given to poor people?
Everyone who buys something fancy they don't need that is not the bare essentials of survival - we are all basically guilty of excess extravagance!!
What's right and what's wrong here? I guess I am immoral
How do you justify buying a ticket to the movies and buying nice eat out food instead of just rice and vegetables and no special entertainment when there are poor people starving on the verge of death? What do we do - what is right?
How Bare and Essential of living while only giving the excess to lift others out of poverty assures our morality and ethicalness?
I want everyone to live as extravagantly and luxuriously as possible, but now I am concerned about just what is moral to others in need!!
Or do you do it this way, allow yourself to live extravagantly and have wealth, and then teach others how to be wealthy too?
But then just one person on the verge of death from hunger is so significant and matters.
How much helping and giving is right moral and ethical? I guess enough so that we are healthy?
I guess I mean, everything you own and have and have purchased that was unecessary to basic survival, what if the money spent on that could have saved someones life?
Last edited by roxyruby; 08-21-2011 at 04:41 PM.
|08-21-2011, 05:38 PM||#3 (permalink)|
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Berlin, Germany
Steve answers your question in one paragraph:
|08-21-2011, 06:24 PM||#4 (permalink)|
Join Date: Oct 2010
This might sound harsh, but as long as we're exploring the subject I'd like to put something out there.
What has abundance done, besides allow a smaller and smaller group of people to enjoy a greater range of experience and power compared to others, all the while damaging the ecosystem of the planet?
Financial abundance is built on continued economic growth, which depends on increasing consumption, which results in greater environmental damage.
On the surface it seems obvious that we should feel grateful to be where we are - living in modern, rich societies. Relatively safe, disease isn't a large issue, relatively free, clean water, easy access to food, and all the rest of it.
But what's the cost of this? The issue here isn't about looking down on the CEO for living lavishly, jealous of his opulent lifestyle. It's the consequence of them living lavishly, and therefore also, the consequences of our living in financial abundance.
All of this came at the expense of others. Even if you feel good about the way you make your money - say, through an ethical business - you're contributing to a system that oppresses and destroys.
As long as you're part of that system, it doesn't matter how ethical you are in pursuit of your own abundance. You're like the breastplate of an evil knight - you don't attack people directly like the sword, but you help the sword to do its job. Think about it.
What do you do with your abundance?
What did you buy with it? Where were these things made, what were they made out of? Where were the raw materials sourced? Who sourced and built them, under what conditions? Is it that woman who lives on $1 a day? She would not judge you harshly for having what she does not, but maybe she'd judge you harshly for thinking that what you have is worth what she has to go through.
What about the bank you use?
Where does the money from your ethical business go? Into a bank, which loans it to other businesses. Does your bank refuse loans to businesses who they deem as unethical? If it doesn't, you're indirectly investing in methods of money-making that you would never do yourself, for ethical reasons.
We've seen what banks do and what their interests are. Putting your abundance into such a bank is a vote of confidence for that system. It's like buying products from manufacturers known to use cheap foreign labourers, in horrific working conditions. It just perpetuates it.
Here's another thing you spend your abundance on - war.
Want to be a Buddhist millionaire? Think about how much money you want (or have achieved, for the already abundant). Take that number and divide it by the amount of tax you'll pay on it. Take that figure, and divide it by the amount your government spends on its military as a proportion of its complete tax revenue. Then take that figure, and divide it by some cost of the military - something interesting. The cost of a stinger missile, an RPG, a bullet, for instance.
There are other examples I could use, but you get the point. Let's think hard before we pursue abundance -- particularly if we're dedicated to doing good in the world. Let's question it and really see if enabling ourselves to do good with the abundance we have is really worth the costs to other people and the world that went into achieving it.
What would happen if we did this, deeply and honestly?
Maybe we'd look into at and disagree with this premise. Maybe we'll come up with a framework to explain this that allows us to preserve our image of ourselves while still pursuing abundance. Maybe we'd become a little more self-aware when it comes to our own priorities and values, but still decide to pursue abundance anyway.
Fair enough. But maybe, we'd find that there's a type of abundance that's actually better than fast cars and lots of cash. Maybe a more meaningful kind. Maybe we're not far from envisioning it, if we could just separate spiritual pursuits with the pursuit of money and material possessions. Maybe we'd still want a world where there is abundance for all, but we'd just realise, our idea of abundance is wrong.
|08-21-2011, 11:04 PM||#5 (permalink)|
Join Date: Nov 2006
It all depends on what you do with your abundance. It shouldn't be about material wealth anyway. Sure, that's all good and well, but having tons of money isn't going to solve all your problems. It's more about the mindset than anything else and abundance comes in many forms.
Abundance to me equals freedom to do as I please with respect to my career and being able to get my needs met in a comfortable fashion. Also, doing work I love, which I would do anyway whether or not it would make me money. The super-rich of the world use and abuse people all over the world, and if i were one of them I would try to open their eyes to what they are doing, but I'm sure they would still find it hard to empathize with the poor of the world. Therefore, they have no qualms about using them.
I'm sure there are many conscious people who have a lot of abundance in their lives, but those who have mostly financial abundance and not much other abundance aren't contributing to the greater good most of the time. In fact, they are accelerating the collapse of civilization through greed and lust. I'd rather be a conscious millionaire than one of those Earth-sucking and using people.
|08-22-2011, 02:33 AM||#6 (permalink)|
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Abundance is good, it is pure health I think, when achieved in an ethical moral way. (Not through destructive crime etc)
I agree that plain charity doesn't solve problems, people need empowerment and education as well (though no-one should be allowed to be physically unhealthy or to die)
Giving people in poor countries loans for businesses is a good thing.
However the dilemna now is, even though abundance is healthy for me or anyone to have, isn't ensuring that all the other humans of the world are physically healthy and have the same education and opportunities as me more urgent and important?
So like instead of buying a new house or going on holiday or something I should support a project to build a library and buy books in a poor area. Or one of my favorite ideas, spread the availability of internet use (since there is so much knowledge, information, & opportunities on the internet)
Even though abundance is really highly enjoyable & fun.
Therefore would the only ethical abundance be if someone gives me abundance as a gift, but then is it ethical to use that abundance? Or should I sell it and give the money to raising others in poor areas up to my level?
Therefore, I may never be able to have abundance in an ethical way because there are too many problems/too much poverty in other peoples lives and I should treat others & their families the way I'd like to be treated if I was them?
Categorically defining humans separates us, because it makes us think, I am the real human, others in those other categories are less real, not as human. Maybe.
Last edited by roxyruby; 08-22-2011 at 02:41 AM.
|08-27-2011, 05:22 PM||#8 (permalink)|
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Brisbane, Australia
"Which of the world's problems will you be ignoring today?"
I just wondered if this twitter post was related to some things I said here. Maybe that's me being paranoid LOL or maybe there is some sort of negativity about it?
Anyway, I didn't mean what I said in a way like I think anyone is bad. I just thought it would be interesting to discuss. I don't want anyone to feel bad or negative, I want people to feel fine, good, no worry etc!!
Helping others & making a difference in ANY WAY/WHATEVER WAY is so meaningful.
Rich people might have made more of a positive difference in the world and given more to charity than middle class people so you cannot judge someone who has given more than you/made more of a positive difference than you anyway.
Like people judge someone wealther than them for having excess they don't need, but what if that wealthier person has made more of a positive difference anyway even if they have excess?
Who is the real one who hasn't given enough?
that is another way of looking at it
Also another point is is it unethical to give away something that is really meaningful from a person? (Like Abundance if it is really meaningful to them)
Just like Abundance may be someones hobby like comedy may be someone elses hobby? One persons joy may be abundance, anothers joy may be photography?
Is it ethical then, that people to whom abundance is highly meaningful, should sacrafice abundance for the virtue of giving to and helping others as much as is materially and financially possible? (Only living in a bare essentials way) To work towards better equality of opportunities and education in the world and assisting the hungry?
Like Whats meaningful to people is meaningful.
Points above are important.
I had to add all that on, I still feel my original posts had mostly valid points though even though its a joy kill cause in this culture joy=having more than we need. People need happiness and joyful experience. Not necessarily more than we need. More than we need can be very amazing and fun though!
And by more than we need I don't mean technology and the more than we need stuff that actually is making/helping positive steps forward for everyone.
Also Wealth may usually reflect that that person has "given/created a wealth" in some way to society through superior work gotten done/producing/creating etc. So have received back what they've earned.
I haven't done anything wrong in this thread.
Last edited by roxyruby; 08-27-2011 at 05:34 PM.
|08-28-2011, 03:36 AM||#9 (permalink)|
Join Date: Sep 2010
But, you see, abundance is just something of a training ground for something greater. Something more on a macro, universe, level. You don't need to do anything super-generous to feel good about abundance.
When the spirit learns to create, even if it's something selfishly material or situational...that spirit grows. Eventually, there comes a time...maybe after a fairly long time...that the spirit will have had its fill of creating earthly material things and situations. Been there, done that.
At that point, the spirit starts to become interested in spiritual growth for its own sake. At that point, real spiritual growth kicks in.
Since we're all spiritually connected with each other and the Universal Mind, the more the spirit grows, the more the Universal Mind grows as a whole, as well. Everyone wins.
So, go ahead and manifest away as much as you want. Attain as much as you want. It's all just part of the universe's way to grow you, spiritually. Just like a baby learning early skills that build on themselves for eventual greater knowledge, so too the manifestation of material and situational things are just the early spiritual skill training the universe puts you through for greater spiritual abundance later.
Besides, all initial desires originate in the Universal Mind to begin with anyway. So, blame the universe if you want a new 60-inch TV set.
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