Appreciating Abundance (Blog)

[Savage]

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Steve Pavlina's blog:

Appreciating Abundance

[roxyruby]

I agree this thing is so illogical.

How Middle Class is the only acceptable and right way - rich extravagant or luxurious people are being bad. Because they have things they don't need.

But if they are bad, then the middle class is bad too.

Because the middle class buy things they don't need.

Why did they buy a TV when they could have given that money to charity?

Why did they buy those fancy plates or fancy shoes when they could have bought the bare minimum and no frills of everything and given the money to charity instead?

Why purchase carpet when you could just have a concrete floor and that money could have been given to poor people?

Why? Why?

Everyone who buys something fancy they don't need that is not the bare essentials of survival - we are all basically guilty of excess extravagance!!

What's right and what's wrong here? I guess I am immoral

How do you justify buying a ticket to the movies and buying nice eat out food instead of just rice and vegetables and no special entertainment when there are poor people starving on the verge of death? What do we do - what is right?

How Bare and Essential of living while only giving the excess to lift others out of poverty assures our morality and ethicalness?

I want everyone to live as extravagantly and luxuriously as possible, but now I am concerned about just what is moral to others in need!!

Or do you do it this way, allow yourself to live extravagantly and have wealth, and then teach others how to be wealthy too?

But then just one person on the verge of death from hunger is so significant and matters.

How much helping and giving is right moral and ethical? I guess enough so that we are healthy?

I guess I mean, everything you own and have and have purchased that was unecessary to basic survival, what if the money spent on that could have saved someones life?

[zetta]

Steve answers your question in one paragraph:

Put yourself in the place of that CEO. To you this lifestyle feels normal, not lavish or excessive. As you see it, so many others are living in lack and scarcity. You know you can’t help them by joining them in lack. You can be generous with them of course, and you do so to the degree it feels good, but you don’t want to give so much that it disempowers them, do you? Instead you would rather inspire others to create their own happiness, assisting them where you can but being careful not to rob them of their own creative power.

[WarrenG]

Steve answers your question in one paragraph:

Debatable.

This might sound harsh, but as long as we're exploring the subject I'd like to put something out there.

Praise abundance?

**** abundance.

What has abundance done, besides allow a smaller and smaller group of people to enjoy a greater range of experience and power compared to others, all the while damaging the ecosystem of the planet?

Financial abundance is built on continued economic growth, which depends on increasing consumption, which results in greater environmental damage.

On the surface it seems obvious that we should feel grateful to be where we are - living in modern, rich societies. Relatively safe, disease isn't a large issue, relatively free, clean water, easy access to food, and all the rest of it.

But what's the cost of this? The issue here isn't about looking down on the CEO for living lavishly, jealous of his opulent lifestyle. It's the consequence of them living lavishly, and therefore also, the consequences of our living in financial abundance.

All of this came at the expense of others. Even if you feel good about the way you make your money - say, through an ethical business - you're contributing to a system that oppresses and destroys.

As long as you're part of that system, it doesn't matter how ethical you are in pursuit of your own abundance. You're like the breastplate of an evil knight - you don't attack people directly like the sword, but you help the sword to do its job. Think about it.

What do you do with your abundance?

What did you buy with it? Where were these things made, what were they made out of? Where were the raw materials sourced? Who sourced and built them, under what conditions? Is it that woman who lives on $1 a day? She would not judge you harshly for having what she does not, but maybe she'd judge you harshly for thinking that what you have is worth what she has to go through.

What about the bank you use?

Where does the money from your ethical business go? Into a bank, which loans it to other businesses. Does your bank refuse loans to businesses who they deem as unethical? If it doesn't, you're indirectly investing in methods of money-making that you would never do yourself, for ethical reasons.

We've seen what banks do and what their interests are. Putting your abundance into such a bank is a vote of confidence for that system. It's like buying products from manufacturers known to use cheap foreign labourers, in horrific working conditions. It just perpetuates it.

Here's another thing you spend your abundance on - war.

Want to be a Buddhist millionaire? Think about how much money you want (or have achieved, for the already abundant). Take that number and divide it by the amount of tax you'll pay on it. Take that figure, and divide it by the amount your government spends on its military as a proportion of its complete tax revenue. Then take that figure, and divide it by some cost of the military - something interesting. The cost of a stinger missile, an RPG, a bullet, for instance.

There are other examples I could use, but you get the point. Let's think hard before we pursue abundance -- particularly if we're dedicated to doing good in the world. Let's question it and really see if enabling ourselves to do good with the abundance we have is really worth the costs to other people and the world that went into achieving it.

What would happen if we did this, deeply and honestly?

Maybe we'd look into at and disagree with this premise. Maybe we'll come up with a framework to explain this that allows us to preserve our image of ourselves while still pursuing abundance. Maybe we'd become a little more self-aware when it comes to our own priorities and values, but still decide to pursue abundance anyway.

Fair enough. But maybe, we'd find that there's a type of abundance that's actually better than fast cars and lots of cash. Maybe a more meaningful kind. Maybe we're not far from envisioning it, if we could just separate spiritual pursuits with the pursuit of money and material possessions. Maybe we'd still want a world where there is abundance for all, but we'd just realise, our idea of abundance is wrong.

[Andrew Brunelle]

It all depends on what you do with your abundance. It shouldn't be about material wealth anyway. Sure, that's all good and well, but having tons of money isn't going to solve all your problems. It's more about the mindset than anything else and abundance comes in many forms.

Abundance to me equals freedom to do as I please with respect to my career and being able to get my needs met in a comfortable fashion. Also, doing work I love, which I would do anyway whether or not it would make me money. The super-rich of the world use and abuse people all over the world, and if i were one of them I would try to open their eyes to what they are doing, but I'm sure they would still find it hard to empathize with the poor of the world. Therefore, they have no qualms about using them.

I'm sure there are many conscious people who have a lot of abundance in their lives, but those who have mostly financial abundance and not much other abundance aren't contributing to the greater good most of the time. In fact, they are accelerating the collapse of civilization through greed and lust. I'd rather be a conscious millionaire than one of those Earth-sucking and using people.

[roxyruby]

Abundance is good, it is pure health I think, when achieved in an ethical moral way. (Not through destructive crime etc)

I agree that plain charity doesn't solve problems, people need empowerment and education as well (though no-one should be allowed to be physically unhealthy or to die)

Giving people in poor countries loans for businesses is a good thing.

However the dilemna now is, even though abundance is healthy for me or anyone to have, isn't ensuring that all the other humans of the world are physically healthy and have the same education and opportunities as me more urgent and important?

So like instead of buying a new house or going on holiday or something I should support a project to build a library and buy books in a poor area. Or one of my favorite ideas, spread the availability of internet use (since there is so much knowledge, information, & opportunities on the internet)

Even though abundance is really highly enjoyable & fun.

Therefore would the only ethical abundance be if someone gives me abundance as a gift, but then is it ethical to use that abundance? Or should I sell it and give the money to raising others in poor areas up to my level?

Therefore, I may never be able to have abundance in an ethical way because there are too many problems/too much poverty in other peoples lives and I should treat others & their families the way I'd like to be treated if I was them?

Categorically defining humans separates us, because it makes us think, I am the real human, others in those other categories are less real, not as human. Maybe.

[Orionjoel]

I really do not know that abundance and ethics belong in the same discussion at this level. Of course everyone is welcome to their opinion, but I just think that sometimes the ethics point is taken way to far.

So in my opinion if you want to take ethics to the nth degree, the only people living an ethical life are the ones that are not part of modern civilization. This may be an out there claim, but honestly I do not believe anyone living in modern society can even possibly even get close to a entire 100% ethical exsistence.

So while I believe that you do need to do your part, I believe it is much better to work on ethics from a matter of how you present yourself, and your work in everything you do. By this I mean

- Be ethical with yourself, only present yourself in a way that you believe is right. This probably means for most people, don't lie, cheat, deceive, ect.
- Be Ethical in your work, again this means similar to above, but i would think extends this a little in working with people that believe in these same value.
- And I think focus where you believe it is right to focus on ethical standards. If you feel that helping a charity is what you should do, then do it, but honestly this may not seem like an ethical thing for you, many charities while having the best intention also inadvertently become top heavy meaning money does not get where you expect it is going.

On the other hand I would not even think twice about ethics beyond my own personal situation when it comes to banking. The system is so mixed up and convoluted, that I doubt there would be even a chance that any bank could claim to be an ethical business. So why concern yourself with this, it is not something that you can change.

There are to many steps in every direction to be to concern about ethics beyond yourself. In the banking issue, maybe a bank will say it has implemented ethical lending criteria, so maybe the bank only leands to entities that claim to be ethical entites.

Now I would actually go as far as to say that living abundance is actually the more ethical thing to do. Something I read a long time back said that for every new millionaire created there are around 10 new jobs formed in someway. I do not know the math, on how exactly that works, but it makes sense. A millionaire spending more freely because they are financially secure, will spend more money then someone earning $40,000 per year who is frugel.

We must search for Abundance, not because of what the ethical side of the conversation says, but because it is what you want. If you don't want abundance don't search for it. It is one of those things that is the devide, you will either want it or you wont, you cannot be in the middle.

[James Fletcher]

Always makes me think of that scene in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory where Charlie unwraps a Wonka bar given to him by his Grandpa Joe, who spent his tobacco money to buy it for him.

You know... I'll bet those Golden Tickets make the chocolate taste terrible.

**

I agree with Orionjoel that this isn't really the place to discuss ethics. But I will point out that the basis of Christianity - that all humans are born as sinners - is not unlike the doctrine of extreme environmentalists that human beings are a cancer of Mother Earth.

My point is that ideology can be a roadblock to growth.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by Orionjoel

So in my opinion if you want to take ethics to the nth degree, the only people living an ethical life are the ones that are not part of modern civilization. This may be an out there claim, but honestly I do not believe anyone living in modern society can even possibly even get close to a entire 100% ethical exsistence.

So while I believe that you do need to do your part, I believe it is much better to work on ethics from a matter of how you present yourself, and your work in everything you do. By this I mean

Is your point "Everyone else is unethical, so it must be OK" or "It'll be too hard to become ethical, so let's not bother"?

Now I would actually go as far as to say that living abundance is actually the more ethical thing to do. Something I read a long time back said that for every new millionaire created there are around 10 new jobs formed in someway. I do not know the math, on how exactly that works, but it makes sense. A millionaire spending more freely because they are financially secure, will spend more money then someone earning $40,000 per year who is frugel.

See, now you're contradicting yourself. At first your point was "Ethics don't belong in this discussion," now you're saying "Abundance is ethical."

Also, you heard something, a long time ago, and you don't know how it works or the math. But that's something supporting your idea that abundance is ethical.

This is the point I was making previously. Let's actually FIND OUT. Let's ask these questions - what are the consequences of our abundance? Do we consider them relevant enough to change our ideas and behaviours on abundance? Do we not care? Do we disagree that there's a problem?

One of these is true. Either your abundance is causing harm, so you stop pursuing it; Your abundance is causing harm, but you don't stop pursuing it, or your abundance is not causing harm.

Is this really a block to growth? I see this as a big opportunity for growth! You can learn about your real values - if you can be conscious and perceptive enough to notice your real thoughts on the matter, and be OK with that. As I said previously, maybe we will simply hide from that.

It's all good. Just throwing it out there. If anyone resonates with what I'm saying, maybe it would be worth looking into these things a little deeper. If not, there are other ways of looking at this, such as:

We must search for Abundance, not because of what the ethical side of the conversation says, but because it is what you want. If you don't want abundance don't search for it. It is one of those things that is the devide, you will either want it or you wont, you cannot be in the middle.

[roxyruby]

I want abundance AND i don't want people to be hungry/die from hunger etc that I could have prevented.

Is spending on something unecessary deliberate ignoring or ignoring of those in the world that could even be on the verge of death in favor of pleasure?

It is a painful thing because maybe we also spend to "fit in" and also to impress our loved ones and make our loved ones happy.

This makes me feel so guilty, yet also not wanting to let go of something that makes you so happy like impressing your loved one with clothing that you wear etc and them thinking, "You look so nice" because of your new purchase. Like you want your loved ones to be happy, and there are so many beautiful items and experiences to purchase, yet you also know people out there on the verge of death is the most serious & urgent thing and your money equals power to fix that, somehow. Money is power.

There is also the concept of "Coolness" which can include Valuing Destructiveness and Harmfullness or valueing something with destructive, harmful, or not good effects, - associating these things as highly worthy and making you higher in worth and value, (or if you are without "coolness" you do not have high worth and value & do not have a sort of superiority about you) which is unfair & therefore illogical

[Orionjoel]

Isee your point, my first response was a little bit of a mixed bag. The essential congruent message I feel though is this,

Wheather ethics is included in a conversation about Abundance, is almost irrelevant. If you have a feeling to want abundance, be abundant, if not don't. But thinking about ethics and pursueing a wholly ethical abundance is problematic. Due to the lack of control you have beyond your own actions. So if pursueing abundance, ethics need only be considered to the extent you can control. Not saying turn a blind eye to everything else, but don't expect because you want everything to be ethical that it is going to be able to work that way.

Workers living on a dollar a day is not just a result of our consumersim, but also a result of their government officals allowing this to happen.

Another point on being abundant, why would you just look at how much of the tax revenue you generate goes to military? What about the portion that goes to schools, to provide shildren with education, the portion that goes to maintaining a safer society with police and firefighters or road maintenance. What about the additional spending abundance allows, where you can spend more travelling, you can offer a larger tip for excellent service, you can spend more on cultural things such as theatre, art, music, and the likes.

Abundence ultimately leads in both directions at the same time. Yes some results of abundance will be negative, but just as many good be positive. Just depends if you are willing to take the bad with the good, or if you say because there is bad things involved maybe i better forget all the good that can come as well.

@Roxyruby - I would say that you are thinking in the right direction, however maybe you don't really need to think in terms of everyone else. Think of Abundance as your answer to your question.

Abundance is not about buying everything you want. Abundance is about having all that you need to make your life and other peoples lifes better.

Is spending on something unecessary deliberate ignoring or ignoring of those in the world that could even be on the verge of death in favor of pleasure?

With true abundance this would not be a question, because you could do both. Spend on something unecessary, but not have to ignore helping someone that may be on the verge of death.

I am sorry if the next bit sounds harsh, however also consider that there are a huge number of people in the situation of near death every day. I would say the more abundance you create the better chance you can help any one of these people. But at the same time you don't want to be so busy helping everyone else that you do not first help yourself.

This is not me saying be greedy get abundance and waste all of it on frivolas extravegance, more so saying buy what you feel good buying and then direct the rest to the causes that you can help

[SeaRod]

Digging deeper, the root of this problem is this kind of thinking: "I am perfect, people should follow my way because my way is the perfect way."

Since you are perfect, you are not the problem; other people are the problem because they are not as perfect as you! You desire for other people to be as "perfect" as you are.

Originally Posted by Matthew 7:5

You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Once you realize your own imperfections, you automatically stop condemning others' imperfections.

What a relief to find out that we are all imperfect!

Less condemning and more acceptance.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by Orionjoel

Wheather ethics is included in a conversation about Abundance, is almost irrelevant. If you have a feeling to want abundance, be abundant, if not don't.

Absolutely, indeed that was one of my points - only I'm saying that if you learn about the consequences of your actions more, it might change your position on this. If you still want to be abundant, go for it.

But thinking about ethics and pursueing a wholly ethical abundance is problematic. Due to the lack of control you have beyond your own actions. So if pursueing abundance, ethics need only be considered to the extent you can control.

I agree with you on this one.

Workers living on a dollar a day is not just a result of our consumersim, but also a result of their government officals allowing this to happen.

But that's out of our control, so we shouldn't consider it, right? Nah just kidding, I agree with you. I had a conversation with Cado in the London Riots thread about this. There is a bit of a contradiction in my position, because I don't think normal folk like you and me have the power to change this situation, yet I'm also saying don't pursue abundance.

But it's a matter of degree, and of living in line with your values. I'm saying determine what your values honestly are, and live in line with them.

Another example would be, say someone was ethically opposed to the meat industry, but didn't think they could stop it, and thought "Sod it, I won't be a vegetarian then." But loads of people convert to vegetarianism only after they learn about the conditions in slaugherhouses etc.

Another point on being abundant, why would you just look at how much of the tax revenue you generate goes to military? What about the portion that goes to schools, to provide shildren with education, the portion that goes to maintaining a safer society with police and firefighters or road maintenance. What about the additional spending abundance allows, where you can spend more travelling, you can offer a larger tip for excellent service, you can spend more on cultural things such as theatre, art, music, and the likes.

That's true, absolutely you should look at the whole thing. The military thing was just making a point - maybe if you realise you've paid for a stinger missile or two over the last few years, is that worth the same as a school or road maintenance. I know, an extreme example, but a valid one? You decide...

Roxy,

I'm sorry you're feeling guilty, you're right that this is one big paradox and you can feel binded sometimes.

If you feel guilty, I think that's an indication that you're not in line with your values. You don't want to do any harm, but you also want acceptance and to please other people. You have to find some way of staying sane while you explore topics like this.

What Orion said about most of this being out of your control is a good start - I really believe it is (others disagree). If you didn't want to do any harm at all, like orion says you'd have to leave modern society and start hippy commune, or live in the mountains or something!

Probably not an option, but you can make some steps, choosing where you spend your money, looking into which companies don't use sweatshops for instance, who you bank with, getting stuff second hand, is a good start.

[borisg]

Steve how would you go about creating a 30 day trial to better appreciate abundance and remove lack?

[roxyruby]

"Which of the world's problems will you be ignoring today?"

I just wondered if this twitter post was related to some things I said here. Maybe that's me being paranoid LOL or maybe there is some sort of negativity about it?

Anyway, I didn't mean what I said in a way like I think anyone is bad. I just thought it would be interesting to discuss. I don't want anyone to feel bad or negative, I want people to feel fine, good, no worry etc!!


Helping others & making a difference in ANY WAY/WHATEVER WAY is so meaningful.

Rich people might have made more of a positive difference in the world and given more to charity than middle class people so you cannot judge someone who has given more than you/made more of a positive difference than you anyway.

Like people judge someone wealther than them for having excess they don't need, but what if that wealthier person has made more of a positive difference anyway even if they have excess?

Who is the real one who hasn't given enough?

that is another way of looking at it

Also another point is is it unethical to give away something that is really meaningful from a person? (Like Abundance if it is really meaningful to them)

Just like Abundance may be someones hobby like comedy may be someone elses hobby? One persons joy may be abundance, anothers joy may be photography?

Is it ethical then, that people to whom abundance is highly meaningful, should sacrafice abundance for the virtue of giving to and helping others as much as is materially and financially possible? (Only living in a bare essentials way) To work towards better equality of opportunities and education in the world and assisting the hungry?


Like Whats meaningful to people is meaningful.

Points above are important.

I had to add all that on, I still feel my original posts had mostly valid points though even though its a joy kill cause in this culture joy=having more than we need. People need happiness and joyful experience. Not necessarily more than we need. More than we need can be very amazing and fun though!

And by more than we need I don't mean technology and the more than we need stuff that actually is making/helping positive steps forward for everyone.

Also Wealth may usually reflect that that person has "given/created a wealth" in some way to society through superior work gotten done/producing/creating etc. So have received back what they've earned.

I haven't done anything wrong in this thread.

[waizen]

But, you see, abundance is just something of a training ground for something greater. Something more on a macro, universe, level. You don't need to do anything super-generous to feel good about abundance.

When the spirit learns to create, even if it's something selfishly material or situational...that spirit grows. Eventually, there comes a time...maybe after a fairly long time...that the spirit will have had its fill of creating earthly material things and situations. Been there, done that.

At that point, the spirit starts to become interested in spiritual growth for its own sake. At that point, real spiritual growth kicks in.

Since we're all spiritually connected with each other and the Universal Mind, the more the spirit grows, the more the Universal Mind grows as a whole, as well. Everyone wins.

So, go ahead and manifest away as much as you want. Attain as much as you want. It's all just part of the universe's way to grow you, spiritually. Just like a baby learning early skills that build on themselves for eventual greater knowledge, so too the manifestation of material and situational things are just the early spiritual skill training the universe puts you through for greater spiritual abundance later.

Besides, all initial desires originate in the Universal Mind to begin with anyway. So, blame the universe if you want a new 60-inch TV set.