Making Peace With Death (Blog)

[Sam988]

Going to a stasis field? Funny. But it's not like that, if you read more on the subject you will know better.



By the way, fear has served us for millions of years, why do you want to get rid of it?

[Michael Chui]

I wasn't aware we'd developed stasis fields; what "more on the subject" is there to read?

By "serve", do you mean "instigated every violent conflict since time immemorial" or something more benign, like "caused us to run away blindly"? Not that I'm a fan of either, but this is a usual starting point for conversation.

Would you like to keep it here or move it elsewhere? I don't know if people will consider it off-topic.

[Fusebox]

I havent read any of the posts before this, but after reading Steve's article, I wanted to comment.

To find this article today of all days is just .... synchrnonicity?

My grandmother passed away today. We saw her pain and sufferring near the very last days, and all of us had accepted what was to come.

Id always imagined that one day my parents would tell me of my grandmothers passing and I always imagined breaking down and crying uncontrollably. Yet today, my father broke the news to me and I was relieved , happy almost. I'll remember her always.

Death is part and parcel of life. Accept it. Celebrate the life that was lived.

[confused]

InJoy said I wish I could say I'm where Steve is on the subject, but I'm just not right now. I cannot say (with any conviction) that I am ready to die. I have a young child for whom I dearly desire to complete the "process of raising to adulthood. "

I've been there, with 3 children, and had an experience where I could have gone on, but had the responsibility to stay for the children. That was my job in life.

Reading this article made me realize that now that the kids are mostly grown, all I feel I want to do to make peace with death is write letters to help guide them in the future. (I wished my father had left me a letter.) How freeing to realize that.

[InJoy]

Originally Posted by confused

Reading this article made me realize that now that the kids are mostly grown, all I feel I want to do to make peace with death is write letters to help guide them in the future. (I wished my father had left me a letter.) How freeing to realize that.

Funny, I've felt very strongly about writing letters, but never got around to it. Maybe Someone's trying to tell me something. I think I'll give that a try.

Thank you for the input. You sure don't seem very confused.

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I wasn't aware we'd developed stasis fields; what "more on the subject" is there to read?

By "serve", do you mean "instigated every violent conflict since time immemorial" or something more benign, like "caused us to run away blindly"? Not that I'm a fan of either, but this is a usual starting point for conversation.

Would you like to keep it here or move it elsewhere? I don't know if people will consider it off-topic.

I told you to read more on the subject about kurzweil's theories and immortality on earth, because it seemed in your previous post you relate these subjects to "stasis fields".

About fear, if you ask me these questions you should first say more about what do you mean by "I think it's a step closer to being fearless when you can more finely distinguish what it is you're afraid of." What do you mean by fearless?

Just to develop a bit more what you said, i can perfectly distinguish what i'm afraid of in death, it's the fact of losing consciousness, ceasing to exist. Identifying it doesn't make me be fearless about death, it just makes me want to avoid it more.


I'd rather keep the discussion here, because it is in some way related to the topic.

[Jim]

From the article

Death is a tremendously valuable companion. It’s a constant reminder never to take our lives for granted.

If there truly is an afterlife, why live every moment to it's fullest? If you have an eternity, doesn't this just trivialize the physical life?

The after life appears to be a concept made up from those who don't wish to take responsibility for the life they are living now (e.g. I will always have another day to change).

The concept of an eternal afterlife trivializes our current existence. If I have an eternity, what difference does it make if I piss away 75 years? It's just a "cosmic wink", or so Steve says.....

[Akashic_Librarian]

Ahh Jim, such cynicism...


The afterlife is a different type of existance. You can't get a job, or save the world, or do what you love in the afterlife, you have different things to do.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Sam988

I told you to read more on the subject about kurzweil's theories and immortality on earth, because it seemed in your previous post you relate these subjects to "stasis fields".

I don't recall this being suggested to me, nor do I recall any kind of relation between Kurzweil and the idea of stasis fields. Surely the concept has been around long before Kurzweil suggested his transhumanism.

I'm still confused as to how you could say, "It's not like that," when they're a fictional concept.

Originally Posted by Sam988

About fear, if you ask me these questions you should first say more about what do you mean by "I think it's a step closer to being fearless when you can more finely distinguish what it is you're afraid of." What do you mean by fearless?

Fear is the process of using or increasing ignorance as a vehicle for separation, and the resultant emotion when this happens. Fearlessness is the state of never engaging in the process of fear.

Originally Posted by Sam988

Just to develop a bit more what you said, i can perfectly distinguish what i'm afraid of in death, it's the fact of losing consciousness, ceasing to exist. Identifying it doesn't make me be fearless about death, it just makes me want to avoid it more.

Finely identifying a fear isn't a silver bullet for discarding it; it's a first step in discarding it. Once you know what it is you fear, you can investigate and discover more about it and your relationship to it, and thus dispel the fear by applying love, which is the process of becoming more equal with something through understanding.

But more importantly, I have no grand sweeping notion that death is something to be feared. There are many cases I can identify that death would be very satisfying, whereas there are many cases where death would be terribly disappointing. But it's not death itself, which is okay.

[Erin Pavlina]

Originally Posted by Jim

If there truly is an afterlife, why live every moment to it's fullest? If you have an eternity, doesn't this just trivialize the physical life? The concept of an eternal afterlife trivializes our current existence. If I have an eternity, what difference does it make if I piss away 75 years? It's just a "cosmic wink", or so Steve says.....

That's like asking "If I take a college course but decide not to apply myself it doesn't really matter right? It's just one class on my way towards a degree."

Every life matters. In every lifetime you came here to learn something. If you don't apply yourself and learn and live the best way you can, it will be a waste and you may have to repeat the lesson.

People who believe in the afterlife know that what they do here matters a lot so they don't waste their lives on pointless pursuits or hedonistic pleasures (well, sometimes they do, but just on Saturday nights)

but yes, actually you have the right to squander this life and not accomplish anything. That's your choice.

[Lindsoid]

The prevailing social views would encourage you to dismiss my perspective on death as being insensitive, dissociated, or perhaps psychopathic. Try to see that there's a deeper level of compassion at work here though. I'm not trying to belittle the emotional pain people experience when their loved ones die. Rather I'm suggesting that death itself is not the source of that pain. The source of that pain is the unhealthy attachment to that which is by definition temporary. This realization is a way to genuinely transcend that pain by uncovering a greater truth, not a futile attempt to hide behind a shield of denial.

Since when is it unhealthy to feel pain at the loss of a loved one? The pain does come from attachment to things that are temporary but why is that bad? Why would one value no pain over pain? Development isn't a way to transcend pain, on the contrary with development comes a greater and greater capacity for pain, a greater awareness of suffering and the realization that it is attachment by the ego... which is healthy. This is why you seem dissociated.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Lindsoid

Since when is it unhealthy to feel pain at the loss of a loved one? The pain does come from attachment to things that are temporary but why is that bad? Why would one value no pain over pain? Development isn't a way to transcend pain, on the contrary with development comes a greater and greater capacity for pain, a greater awareness of suffering and the realization that it is attachment by the ego... which is healthy. This is why you seem dissociated.

Well said Lindsoid!

[Akashic_Librarian]

Lindsoid. You are limiting your awareness of things. Pain is uncomfortable, who will argue me on that?

What you are talking about is EGO. Looking better than someone else, being stronger, being tougher, having better resistance. Why would you spend hours fortifying a castle, when you can simply build away from the wars?

[InJoy]

Originally Posted by Lindsoid

Since when is it unhealthy to feel pain at the loss of a loved one? The pain does come from attachment to things that are temporary but why is that bad? Why would one value no pain over pain? Development isn't a way to transcend pain, on the contrary with development comes a greater and greater capacity for pain, a greater awareness of suffering and the realization that it is attachment by the ego... which is healthy. This is why you seem dissociated.

Whether pain (or anything else) is good or bad is a personal assessment (judgment) unique to the person experiencing it. In the case of pain, lots of people agree that it's not pleasurable. That is not to say this is the right or correct way to perceive pain, or that there is a right or correct way to perceive it. However, for those of us who do not experience benefit or joy in the face of pain, it seems like something to avoid.

In fact, isn't that how we, as human beings, or even as living things at all, are hardwired? To avoid pain? Isn't that what pain is for? To use as a message that something is harming us and therefore to avoid?

Obviously, that's a whole nother ball of string.

My point is that it's not inherently bad to experience pain, and if you want to experience it, you have every right and ability to do so to your heart's content. And, in the case of death, my desire would be to feel neither pain nor "nothing" (disconnect) in its face.

I want to feel joy in the face of death. Wouldn't it be awesome to have a natural reaction of elation and excitement when someone dies? To get there, I think I'd need to know (not think; know) the following things:

1. The person was gloriously happy in their new surroundings.
2. That I would once again be with them.
3. That I could (two-way) contact them freely until I reached #2.

Honestly, I'm not there at this point. I suspect those three things, but I do not know them.

[Lindsoid]

Thanks for your responses. I really like about 75 % of What has been said. To accept and welcome death at any moment, to be ready for death in this moment or the next... brilliant. That's how I want to live. The thing that gets me is the demonization of ego outright. From and egoic perspective we are meant to fear death, we feel pain and fear when someone dies from this egoic attachment to this moment in life. From a greater perspective death just is, pain is not bad or good, we can act from this perspective but only through the ego. To live otherwise is to not fully incarnate, accepting death and living to the fullest is not denying ego, to except death is accepting one’s ego. The ego has a purpose; I want to feel pain when I hear about a massacre in Virginia, because that is a healthy response to the suffering of others. When people die there is potential lost, life has value, both culturally, personally, and on every level we are affected. When we look at it from a wider lens it doesn't mean we transcend the pain we just see it in it’s context and live more fully.

Hmmm.. and I may have a different definition of ego than some of you... to me, ego is small mind, our personality or that which is being witnessed.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Lindsoid

From and egoic perspective we are meant to fear death, we feel pain and fear when someone dies from this egoic attachment to this moment in life.
Hmmm.. and I may have a different definition of ego than some of you... to me, ego is small mind, our personality or that which is being witnessed.

From a self-preservation point of view, nature doesn't want us to be too welcoming to the notion of death.

Pain is also a self-preservation mechanism intended to alert us and warn us of impending danger (emotional or physical).

As far as ego goes, from a psychological point of view we need that too - a healthy, balanced one. I think that you're right in that people define concepts differently. Strictly from a life preservation perspective, we need pain and ego and to at least want to avoid death.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

Pain is also a self-preservation mechanism intended to alert us and warn us of impending danger (emotional or physical).

I wonder: what impending danger is warned by heartbreak?

Originally Posted by ZHereford

As far as ego goes, from a psychological point of view we need that too - a healthy, balanced one.

Elaborate.

[InJoy]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I wonder: what impending danger is warned by heartbreak?

That is a GREAT question!

We've been grouping emotional pain with physical pain and they are two completely different subjects. Good catch!

So what function does emotional pain serve?

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by InJoy

So what function does emotional pain serve?

There is emotional pain and physical pain.

Emotional pain serves as a catalyst for building resilience - emotional resilience that is.

Emotional pending danger could be a nervous or psychotic breakdown.

Just as we build physical muscle we build mental and emotional muscle. As we mature we learn to deal with adversity and difficult situations.

I am not nearly as sensitive as I was when I was younger. I have learned to deal with emotional pain and disappointment and I am the stronger for it. I have also learned that I have a choice in how to perceive emotional events in my life.

[InJoy]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

There is emotional pain and physical pain.

Emotional pain serves as a catalyst for building resilience - emotional resilience that is.

Emotional pending danger could be a nervous or psychotic breakdown.

Just as we build physical muscle we build mental and emotional muscle. As we mature we learn to deal with adversity and difficult situations.

I am not nearly as sensitive as I was when I was younger. I have learned to deal with emotional pain and disappointment and I am the stronger for it. I have also learned that I have a choice in how to perceive emotional events in my life.

It would seem by this definition (which, btw, I cannot currently disagree with) that emotional pain's only function is to prepare us to handle more of the same. That sort of loop suggests (to me) that there is no inherent, useful purpose to emotional pain at all.

It would follow that we have two choices: Either use emotional pain to build our tolerance to more of it, or learn to avoid it completely.

If that's the case, I'm for number two!

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by InJoy

It would follow that we have two choices: Either use emotional pain to build our tolerance to more of it, or learn to avoid it completely.
If that's the case, I'm for number two!

Physical or emotional pain is meant to make you pay attention. If you have a pain in your foot it's usefulness is to let you know that you need to attend to your foot which may be broken or bruised and needs to be bandaged.

When you have emotional pain it is also meant to make you pay attention. Are you hurt because you're oversensitive, unreasonable or have a lesson to learn? You have to attend to your psyche. If you deal with it you build resilience, if you avoid it you don't. The choice is certainly yours.

If you take care of your physical and mental health you are less likely to experience either type of pain.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by InJoy

It would follow that we have two choices: Either use emotional pain to build our tolerance to more of it, or learn to avoid it completely.

I'd have to disagree with you here, InJoy; it seems to me that you're making the mistake of ignoring the presence of time.

Here's an assertion: Pain is a natural consequence of experiencing life. Thus, to avoid pain is to avoid life. However, if ZHereford's analogy to physical muscles holds, the experience of pain gives you an opportunity to become more resilient to pain, and thus allowing you to experience more life without pain.

Originally Posted by ZHereford

When you have emotional pain it is also meant to make you pay attention. Are you hurt because you're oversensitive, unreasonable or have a lesson to learn? You have to attend to your psyche. If you deal with it you build resilience, if you avoid it you don't. The choice is certainly yours.

If you take care of your physical and mental health you are less likely to experience either type of pain.

Okay, so you're not saying that pain is necessary; you're saying that a person needs to deal with pain properly.

Now, if what you say is true, then is the inverse true as well? If you don't feel pain, does that mean you don't have emotional issues to deal with?

[InJoy]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I'd have to disagree with you here, InJoy; it seems to me that you're making the mistake of ignoring the presence of time.

I don't understand.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Here's an assertion: Pain is a natural consequence of experiencing life. Thus, to avoid pain is to avoid life. However, if ZHereford's analogy to physical muscles holds, the experience of pain gives you an opportunity to become more resilient to pain, and thus allowing you to experience more life without pain.

I don't think that emotional pain is a natural consequence of life experience. I believe strongly that emotional pain is a direct consequence of thought.

For instance, on the subject of death...

If Aunt Bertha calls to tell me that Uncle Theo is very sick, lots of things will contribute to whether I feel emotional pain over this news. Assuming that I value Uncle Theo's presence on this earth, I have the choice about how I spend my time thinking about this issue. If I worry and think about how he might die before his time, etc., I will almost certainly feel emotional pain. If I think about how I might help my family in this time of need, or if I choose to focus all of my thoughts on my uncle having a full recovery, I'm not likely to feel emotional pain. (For what is in those things to feel pain over?)

Now, let's say I get a phone call tomorrow morning with the news that Uncle Theo died in the night. In fact, he died just as I was writing all of this. Since, as I write, I do not know to think of his loss yet, I will not feel emotional pain. In fact, I am incapable of having emotional pain over his actual death until I know and can think about the fact that he is gone.

Even after I've learned of his death, it is my thoughts that will lead me to (or from) emotional pain. I will miss him. I didn't get to say goodbye. He was mad at me the last time we spoke. He was too young to die. And on and on. Those are the things that will make me feel emotional pain. Not the death itself. The death itself is neutral. I know this because the readers here (for instance) couldn't care less that my (fictional) Uncle Theo just died. You have no thoughts about him personally that would lead you to feel emotional pain at his passing. There might be a smattering of folks who allow such thoughts as "it could have been MY uncle who died", and they might feel emotional pain, but again, that is a result of their thoughts.

If anything I've said leads you to believe that I am suggesting we avoid emotional pain by ignoring it, then I am not being clear. That is not even close to my point, and for the record, I do not think that approach works. What I'm saying is that emotional pain seems to have no real function for survival or prosperity in life. Therefore, it makes sense to me that I should find ways to avoid thoughts that lead to emotional pain. In fact, it makes even more sense that I should gravitate toward and practice thoughts that bring me joy, since joy does have function in a prosperous life.

This is, in fact, what I spend a great deal of my energy practicing now. However, I have not mastered it.

Yet.

Btw, thank you for the stimulating discussion. I learn so much from this type of thought.

[Michael Chui]

Heh.

Reading that while simultaneously listening to a podcast where Tim O'Reilly's speaking incited the thought of a realtime death update system, where our futuristic selves get pinged every time someone dies.

But I'm just musing.

Originally Posted by InJoy

I don't understand.

For example, there's an event of pain now, and there's an event of pain next year. Say that the stimulus for the pain is identical. "Avoidance", then, is very nearly synonymous to "building resilience", except that the former suggests that you run away whereas the latter suggests facing and dealing with it.

Originally Posted by InJoy

I don't think that emotional pain is a natural consequence of life experience. I believe strongly that emotional pain is a direct consequence of thought.

Well, certainly. In order to think about your uncle Theo's death, you have to experience it first. The experience is of thinking about it. Once, I was reading about Australian aboriginals and how one of their rituals involves gashing the underside of their penis. I tried to imagine it, and discovered the mistake of doing so. I still groan when I remembering imagining it. I also once tried to imagine crucifixion, but I don't feel I imagined that accurately because it was too complex for me to conceive (two or three points of being punctured, plus the difficulty of breathing).

Thus, thought itself is a life experience.

Interestingly, physical pain has a very significant psychological component. I've successfully dealt with reasonably similar stimuli with others, some of which appear tougher than I, and was more able to take care of myself. What I have learned is how to channel negative reactions, like pain and anger, into a kind of productivity. In one Star Wars novel, I read the best description of that action I ever saw: "He considered his pain: let it drop." While I'm certainly not so effective, I've learned that pain comes largely from one's awareness of it. But it's not thought per se; it's letting the pain become a part of who you are. It's the identification of "I am in pain." that brings pain at all.

That strikes me as disingenuous, but also correct. Anyone want to weigh in especially on my last sentence?

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Here's an assertion: Pain is a natural consequence of experiencing life.

Very true! I've never heard of anyone who has been able to avoid some pain in life.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Now, if what you say is true, then is the inverse true as well? If you don't feel pain, does that mean you don't have emotional issues to deal with?

You pretty much answered this one with the above statement "pain is a natural consequence of life."

If someone were to claim they don't feel pain they could be numb or in a state of shock which is temporary. Shock even numbs physical pain.

We're human and are therefore born with physical and emotional vulnerabilities. Our challenge in life is to grow, develop and overcome.

Barring any mental disorder or illness we all feel of some kind of pain in our lives.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

Barring any mental disorder or illness we all feel of some kind of pain in our lives.

Do I feel pain from kissing my girlfriend? From a momentous achievement? From being delighted at a surprise?

It's true that we feel pain at some point in our lives, but aren't there also occasions where we don't feel pain?

Further, isn't there a point when something that once caused us pain (ask a toddler to hold up your suitcase) no longer does? Such that, the lack of pain is a sign that you've grown, developed, and overcame?

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Do I feel pain from kissing my girlfriend? From a momentous achievement? From being delighted at a surprise?

You might, but I never have!

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

It's true that we feel pain at some point in our lives, but aren't there also occasions where we don't feel pain?

For sure! Pain can be relative and subjective (there's that word again!)

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Further, isn't there a point when something that once caused us pain (ask a toddler to hold up your suitcase) no longer does? Such that, the lack of pain is a sign that you've grown, developed, and overcame?

I'd say that's true for the most part.

[Sam988]

I think you guys aren't afraid of death because of your belief, you believe death will lead you to somewhere else, another plain of existence, but that may not be true.

Assuming death leads to one's consciousness ceasing to exist, would you still be fearless about death?

[Akashic_Librarian]

Well yeah. Either way. Your dead right? it inevitable, so why live in fear of it?

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Sam988

Assuming death leads to one's consciousness ceasing to exist, would you still be fearless about death?

I would be even more fearless of death if knew I'd cease to exist.

At least then I would know it's over!

Like I said in an earlier post, I don't think we get off that easily. It would also render everything we go through in life somewhat meaningless.