Steve Is Wrong, and Endangering His Readers

[Seth]

Steve, you have given me a quantum leap in spiritual development. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and offering guidance to the “smart people” who know there’s more to life than there appears, but don’t know how to find it. You encourage us to look for the negative aspects of our beliefs and move beyond our sticking points, but I want to give you some tough love, and advise you to practice what you preach.

Your belief in subjective reality has become a virus on your “mental PC.” It has grown so insane that it now makes your readers stupider for believing it. Your explanation of how you manifested the Virginia Tech shootings based on the numbers 19 and 33 is truly nauseating. However, your advice to ignore the standard “outrage pattern” is extremely beneficial. The problem is that smart people start reading your articles, are attracted by the truths, and then easily accept the lies. It’s a common manipulation technique, but I don’t think you’re doing it on purpose. You are misguided, so I will put your entire life in perspective to get you back on track.

As explained in this article, Transcending the Control System: Triad of Progress , you were raised in the ridiculously ignorant Catholic church. Ignorance is defined as staunch unwillingness to seek greater understanding. Christianity is possibly the epitome of ignorance, teaching that one book is right and everything else imaginable is wrong and going to hell. But you were smart, and you rejected it. “Ignorance” (Christianity) is at 0 degrees on a spiral, so you ran 180 degrees all the way up to “Rejection” (Atheism). Christianity is wrong, so you took the logical inversion. Most smart people do. But that caused a lot of negativity and skepticism, and got you into trouble. You needed to change your life, but you weren’t going to run fearfully back down to Christianity. You forged ahead and ascended up the spiral, ironically ending up at 360 degrees with a belief in God. Now you tell everyone about how you’re God and you manifest school shootings because you have internal conflicts.

Steve, YOU ARE NOT GOD. You did not manifest the Virginia Tech shooting, or Columbine for that matter. You’ve transcended Christianity and Atheism, and now you need to transcend Subjective Reality. It’s a stepping stone, but now it’s hurting you and your readers. Here is the next step in your spiritual evolution:

Transcending the Control System: True Reality Creation (Part I)

In true matrix style, I can only show you the door. You must choose to walk through it.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Seth

Ignorance is defined as staunch unwillingness to seek greater understanding. Christianity is possibly the epitome of ignorance, teaching that one book is right and everything else imaginable is wrong and going to hell.

Was anyone else struck by the irony in these remarks?

[Seth]

You don't think limiting your understanding of life to one book is ignorant? Understand the Bible, and then read something else and understand that, too.

[Theo77]

I thought you said he was "engendering" his readers. I was wondering what you meant....oh well

[SecretSeven]

Although I don't follow Steve's peticular beliefs, I think it is up to Steve to choose which beliefs he suscribes to. If wants to be a christian, or a buddhist it is up to him. He is simply relaying his beliefs to his readership.

[blueman70]

Your explanation of how you manifested the Virginia Tech shootings based on the numbers 19 and 33 is truly nauseating.

Where did Steve say that? And if he did, that's a bit disturbing if you ask me..

[Seth]

Steve claims responsibility for the Virginia Tech shootings here: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...d-nonviolence/

“I can easily interpret the Virginia Tech shooting as a dream in a way that’s meaningful for me. For example, the key numbers (age 19, 33 dead) are significant for me. At age 19 I made a decision to turn my life around while sitting in a jail cell (as explained in podcast #1), and at age 33 I launched StevePavlina.com. The shooting occurred at the tail end of a weekend Erin and I spent in Sedona, Arizona, which unearthed and eventually resolved a lot of internal conflict about certain upcoming decisions. I don’t see this event as tragic in any way. It doesn’t cause me to feel outrage, a desire to see people punished, a sense of addiction to the drama. It just is.”

Do you think he has personally apologized to the victims’ parents? Way to be non-violent, you KILLED SOME KIDS! Gruarkjanaslkjer. Why did you manifest that strange word, Steve?

I guess I shouldn’t leave Erin out of this, to be fair. Erin, you say that those kids planned to get murdered when they incarnated. If you had given them a psychic reading, would their spirit guides have told you that their plan was to get murdered?

Erin, you wrote an entire article condemning the death penalty, yet you insist it was the convicts’ plan to get executed all along. Why doesn't Angela the moderator comment on that irony?

Everyone who’s bought into this subjective reality craze should meditate on the words “free will.” The government uses its free will to give the death penalty, and the Virginia Tech shooter used his free will to kill some students. When you use your free will against another human being, it hurts them, and hurts you. The worst thing you can do is kill another person, because it cuts their "spiritual journey in a physical world" short. You guys KNOW this stuff, come on!

edit: I don't mean to personally attack anyone here, just their ideas. Hopefully you guys all realize that your ideas are not you.

[Mr.Mustache]

Hold on here I believe in subjective reality and no this is not at all because of steve I've been introduced to the concept of non-duality elsewhere.

I believe the virginia tech shooting was caused by suppressed aggression both individually and collectivley. This aggression is the result of the tension in world now a days we aggresivley want a peaceful world but instead this aggression turned into violence because of our collective spiritual misunderstanding.

The collective aggression of humanity was reflected outward through a boy who commited the massacre.

Now what do we do about this? We change ourselves and learn to channel our desires outward in a more creative fashion. Then there will be no need for aggression. If you change yourself you will influnce others and if everyone does this then there would be no violence.

Now how is this a dangerous belief system?

Oh, no the world is collapsing! That terrible person. This evil world! This is the reaction of the dual perception of reality. You make yourself a victim, in fact you make yourself a cosmic accident.

[Seth]

It is a dangerous belief system, Mr. Mustache, because while you are changing yourself into a better person, I can still come to your house and kill you. That is my free will. You can say “I love you, evil” as I kill you, but you will still be dead.

Please know that I have no intention of killing you. But I could! Think your way out of that one.

[Amadeus]

Christianity and the Bible is an absolute truth. They are not relative truths.

Absolute truths:
Abortion is wrong.
Murder is wrong.
Stealing is wrong.
Lust is wrong.
Greed is wrong.
Telling little white lies on your taxes is wrong.
Speeding and breaking the law is wrong.

Relative truths:
It is o.k. to have an abortion if it is in the first trimester.
It is o.k. to cheat on my spouse if no one finds out.
Homosexuality relationships are acceptable.
Pediphilia relationships are acceptable.
It is o.k. to lie if it doesn't hurt anyone else.
It is o.k. to write off my vacation to Hawaii as a business expense.

So i guess I don't understand your view on the Bible. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

Also your statement that most smart people don't follow Christianity is absurd. 90 percent of Americans consider themselves Christians. So the "smart ones" are in that 10 percent? The US is a Christian Country. The former Soviet Union and now Russia is a atheist country. Unfortunately for them they never could understand that a socialist government doesn't do very well. They finally did but still can't get much accomplished. So, your little theory doesn't add up.

[Calculusaurus]

I don't think Steve meant that he was responsible for the Virginia Tech shootings. You're making it sound like he thinks it was his own doing.

My interpretation of Steve's articles is this: based on a view of subjective reality, certain events, such as the VT shootings, can be interpreted differently than the norm, often leading to enlightening or productive viewpoints. Steve has said time and time again that his different perspectives of reality apply to different situations. A subjectuve reality viewpoint is sometimes more fruitful than an objective one, but the converse can be true at other times.

Where has he said that subjective reality is the definitive truth to it all? If you have read literature on creativity and psychology, you are probably familiar with the following idea: one of the common threads between creative geniuses is their ability to hold contradictory ideas in your head, to be intellectually comfortable with them.

Subjective reality has made some sense to me in terms of the VT shootings; I especially resonate with this quote: "I don’t see this event as tragic in any way. It doesn’t cause me to feel outrage, a desire to see people punished, a sense of addiction to the drama. It just is."

[Seth]

Calculusaurus, I anticipated that reaction and already explained it in my first post. Steve is on the right track and is fairly high up the “spiritual spiral” I described and linked. When you transcend Christianity and move up to Atheism, you don’t erase your understanding of Christianity! You add it to your “mental PC” and keep going. If you remain an Atheist, you’re just as ignorant as the Christians, refusing to question your beliefs. It’s the spiral of ignorance—rejection—revelation that leads to endless growth.

The problem is that subjective reality is a huge sticking point for Steve’s spiritual growth. He’s acting like it’s his final revelation, and he needs to reject it to move up the spiral. He believes in it to the point of accepting responsibility for the VT shootings, and refuses to question it. When your beliefs cause you to accept responsibility for murder, don’t you think it’s time to question them? The link I provided reveals many flaws in subjective reality, and offers the solution. It’s not the final step, obviously, just the next step. I'm sure it will answer a ton of questions for you, as it did for me.

Also like I said in my first post, much of Steve’s writing is entirely correct. It is smart for you to reject society’s “outrage pattern,” but that doesn’t mean you have to buy Steve’s entire Subjective Reality package.

[Cas]

Subjective reality resonates the most with me. I don't see how it's dangerous in any way. In the way I see it, the external world is a projection of your inner world -- and trying to change the external world, is pretty much like seeing your reflection on the river and throwing rocks and cursing at it. The reflection will eventually go back to its original state. You can't change the reflection... you can only change what's being reflected.

That's why when blame is placed... it's kind of like an excuse for you to take any responsibility off your shoulders. Whenever you point your finger, you have three of your own fingers pointing back at you.

[september]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

Christianity and the Bible is an absolute truth. They are not relative truths.

Absolute truths:
Abortion is wrong.
Murder is wrong.
Stealing is wrong.
Lust is wrong.
Greed is wrong.
Telling little white lies on your taxes is wrong.
Speeding and breaking the law is wrong.

Relative truths:
It is o.k. to have an abortion if it is in the first trimester.
It is o.k. to cheat on my spouse if no one finds out.
Homosexuality relationships are acceptable.
Pediphilia relationships are acceptable.
It is o.k. to lie if it doesn't hurt anyone else.
It is o.k. to write off my vacation to Hawaii as a business expense.

So i guess I don't understand your view on the Bible. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

Hmm. Let's not set up a false dilemma. It seems like you're associating relative truth with atheism, which is pretty unfair. In the case of abortion, this "relative" statement is a gross oversimplification. Many people believe more things must be developed or present to constitute a human being rather than a zygote or fetus. Also, I do believe homosexual relationships are acceptable, homosexuality occurs in animals in a relatively similar percentage of their populations. I think the burden is on you to prove that they are unethical outside the strict context of your religious worldview. As for the rest of these statements, I'm basically a non-religious individual, and I don't agree with any of those. Please don't accuse non-Christians of all possessing a relative ethic when it even mostly runs against common sense.

Originally Posted by Amadeus

Also your statement that most smart people don't follow Christianity is absurd. 90 percent of Americans consider themselves Christians. So the "smart ones" are in that 10 percent? The US is a Christian Country. The former Soviet Union and now Russia is a atheist country. Unfortunately for them they never could understand that a socialist government doesn't do very well. They finally did but still can't get much accomplished. So, your little theory doesn't add up.

While 90 percent of Americans consider themselves "Christian", only 85 believe in heaven and 63 percent in a Satanic figure, so I wouldn't be sure that everyone here agrees with your specific version.
Actually, as for the smart ones all being non-religious... as we go up the scale, only 1/3 of college graduates accept the Biblical account of creation, and a full 92% of members of the National Academy of Sciences, a group of distinguished scholars, are non-religious. (atheist, agnostic, skeptic, etc.) Also, most western European countries have a high percentage of non-religious people - even Great Britain, with over 40%. Atheism and socialism don't go hand in hand - the Russia example only proves that there is one who practiced both pretty badly. One form of non-religious ethic, secular humanism, is much different than what Soviet socialism was.
Also, our separation of church of state and the presence of deist founding fathers serves as evidence that we are not a Christian nation.

I am not trying to be defensive; actually, I am more hurt by your perception of non-religious and skeptic people. That a group is a minority does not always make it crazy... I would think this community proves that. Many people would disagree with a lot of things we say, and different bits can come off weird to different people. But a lot of great things are discussed here. I hope that some of this might soften your view a little.

[Seth]

Cas, I totally understand where you’re coming from, and there is a huge subjective component to reality. If you’re in prison, you can choose to like it. But if you choose to believe you’re not in prison, you’re consciously choosing ignorance. That is your choice, but you’ll have to go to the “personal development for ignorant people forums.”

[Angela]

Seth, the irony I was pointing out is that your thoughts and feelings in your posts regarding this subject are vividly mirroring the very things you're complaining about.

[escapee]

I think when you have very deep and authentic spiritual experience such as out of Body experience, near death experience, Astra projection and etc. It's easier for you to subscribe partially/completely to the belief of subjective reality.

For many of us (including myself ) in real world who do not have any kind deep spiritual experience, it's will never make alot of sense. It's like playing piano in front of a bunch of cows in the hope that they will appreciate the music.

So seth, you are not alone ..

[Savage]

Subjective reality is simply an alternative lens for viewing reality. But it is not truth itself, and I do not consider it part of my identity any more than Christianity or atheism. Be sure to read the latest article on Spiritual Depth Perception for more on that, or listen to podcast #13.

FWIW your reaction is really about solipsism. I get that a lot because I define subjective reality a bit differently than most people would. When I write from a subjective point of view, my point of reference when I say "I" is consciousness itself, not one of its avatars who happens to be named Steve Pavlina. I'm not saying that Steve is God. I'm saying that consciousness is responsible for everything that occurs within it, and when I apply the lens of subjective reality, I identify with that consciousness. I probably need to do more to clarify that identity shift, but I did explain it in this post (see the answer to the first question):
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...-reality-qa-3/

I may need a few more pronouns to properly convey the difference.

... doling out free Kool Aid since 2004...

[escapee]

Subjective reality is simply an alternative lens for viewing reality. But it is not truth itself, and I do not consider it part of my identity any more than Christianity or atheism

It's very nice that you clarified this.

[Elenny]

Actually, the young man who killed those 32 students at VTech was 23 years old, not 19 like Steve's article says.

I'll let you all decide how that affects Steve's theory!!

[Seth]

Escapee, I don’t think either of us is a cow. Actually, I used to ignore Erin’s site entirely because I thought the woo-woo psychic stuff was dumb. On Steve’s advice in one of his podcasts, I sent out the intention to view the limits of my belief system. Immediately afterwards he said something about “astral projection,” and I jumped on the computer and googled it. After researching it thoroughly, I was eventually led back to Erin’s site! It blew my mind (again) just as the subjective reality stuff had when I first learned it.

To address your point, astral projection REQUIRES a belief in objective reality, because evil entities can literally kill you. Erin’s site is full of articles espousing her belief in an objective reality, and the importance of choosing between good and evil. Check out her site for yourself.

[Savage]

I should really write a book on subjective reality, since a series of articles over a period of months isn't the best media for it. The subjective reality articles build upon the ones that came before, but that creates the problem of new articles being taken out of context because I didn't redefine all the terms again. It's probably unreasonable of me to expect people to go back and read a dozen or so previous articles on the topic.

I'll give this some further thought. I do appreciate the feedback.

[Seth]

Thanks for reply, Steve. I get what you mean about needing new pronouns! I've read all of your articles and I thoroughly understand where you're coming from. Please read the link at the bottom of my first post, and see if it isn’t the next step for your model of subjective reality. I really want to hear your comments on that article. My main problem with your current model is that it doesn't account for the objectivity of good and evil, which Erin has written tons about!

I agree with you that "subjective reality" is a confusing term for your beliefs, and "God consciousness" would have been much better. It seems like you are trying to say "we are all One." Still, we must recognize that we are individual fragments of that greater consciousness. Some fragments are evolving towards good, and some are evolving towards evil. It's no use to claim ignorance and pretend that evil entities don't exist, because then they can easily harm us. It’s also no use to “send love” to evil entities, because they have the free will to reject it. It’s like giving evil a bunch of glasses of water and asking it to drown itself. When Erin sees an astral vampire, she doesn't give it a hug, she kills it. Again, please read the link at the bottom of my first post and tell me what you think. As an added bonus, it will answer all your questions about polarity.

[Erin Pavlina]

Originally Posted by Seth

I guess I shouldn’t leave Erin out of this, to be fair. Erin, you say that those kids planned to get murdered when they incarnated. If you had given them a psychic reading, would their spirit guides have told you that their plan was to get murdered?

Erin, you wrote an entire article condemning the death penalty, yet you insist it was the convicts’ plan to get executed all along.

Those souls agreed to be part of an awareness raising experience with the hope and desire that it would lead to world change. If I had read for one of the victims before they died I would probably have detected their imminent demise, or that information would have been kept from me so it could not be changed. In several of my readings I have seen family members close to my sitter who were in imminent danger of death, in which case I warned my sitter who later confirmed it happened as I said it would. I don't like seeing it, but I won't hide it when it comes up.

Yes I totally condemn the death penalty. I am glad you read that article because I wrote it a while back. That's wonderful! The convict does not sentence himself to death, the jury does. So I'm not understanding your point there.

[Seth]

Erin, how can you say that the jury sentences the convict to death any more than the shooter sentences the students to death? Both are conscious exercises of free will.

You explain the importance of choosing between good and evil, and warn against the harm caused by objectively evil entities. Everything you write supports the belief that evil exists, and it has free will. It's not "love in disguise," it wants to hurt you. Referring to demons, you told me, “if they come in my house and are a threat to my family, I will end their life.” Justify that after you advocate the sanctity of life! And how is anything a threat to you if you are “fundamentally safe,” as Steve believes?

Do you reject Steve's model of subjective reality, or are you going to hug the next astral vampire you see?

[escapee]

To address your point, astral projection REQUIRES a belief in objective reality, because evil entities can literally kill you.

Haha .. you got a point.

[escapee]

BTW Seth, All of the NDE accounts that i read experienced no evil entities (only indescribable peace), so does that mean Astra plane is just another lower energy layer experienced by those whose "spirits" are still tied to a physical body? Man i 'm getting delusional ....

[Max Power]

Seth,

Where do you get off speaking for Steve's readers?? Have you taken an indepth study/survey of his readers? I don't remember getting anything from you. Who gave you premission to speak for the majority? Just because some people can't grasp a different concept such as SR that's hardly reason to spout warnings.

You criticise him for sharing his opinons, then try to convey you strong opinions to everyone thereby doing the very thing you accuse Steve of. Maybe you should get your own site and then you can have a place to enlighten those who like what you believe.

You're entitled to share your opinion, but don't speak for me and don't think because you don't get it, then we won't be able to.

I think some of Steve's stuff is good, some of it crap, but he's hardly endangering people's lives. Does he tell you that you must believe SR or else?? No, he offers an opinion that anyone can make up their mind about. Accept it, reject it, get over it.

Power to the Max

[AnnaC]

Hi Seth,

I can't speak on behalf of all Steve's readers, as I am only one of them, but I just want to say that in my view, they are not being put in any danger. To say that implies that they cannot think for themselves and blindy accept everything Steve says. I find his ideas for the most part really interesting and I really enjoy his articles but I only adopt the beliefs that empower me, whether Steve espouses them or not.

[Erock]

Originally Posted by Seth

Steve, you have given me a quantum leap in spiritual development. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and offering guidance to the “smart people” who know there’s more to life than there appears, but don’t know how to find it. You encourage us to look for the negative aspects of our beliefs and move beyond our sticking points, but I want to give you some tough love, and advise you to practice what you preach.

Your belief in subjective reality has become a virus on your “mental PC.” It has grown so insane that it now makes your readers stupider for believing it. Your explanation of how you manifested the Virginia Tech shootings based on the numbers 19 and 33 is truly nauseating. However, your advice to ignore the standard “outrage pattern” is extremely beneficial. The problem is that smart people start reading your articles, are attracted by the truths, and then easily accept the lies. It’s a common manipulation technique, but I don’t think you’re doing it on purpose. You are misguided, so I will put your entire life in perspective to get you back on track.

As explained in this article, Transcending the Control System: Triad of Progress , you were raised in the ridiculously ignorant Catholic church. Ignorance is defined as staunch unwillingness to seek greater understanding. Christianity is possibly the epitome of ignorance, teaching that one book is right and everything else imaginable is wrong and going to hell. But you were smart, and you rejected it. “Ignorance” (Christianity) is at 0 degrees on a spiral, so you ran 180 degrees all the way up to “Rejection” (Atheism). Christianity is wrong, so you took the logical inversion. Most smart people do. But that caused a lot of negativity and skepticism, and got you into trouble. You needed to change your life, but you weren’t going to run fearfully back down to Christianity. You forged ahead and ascended up the spiral, ironically ending up at 360 degrees with a belief in God. Now you tell everyone about how you’re God and you manifest school shootings because you have internal conflicts.

Steve, YOU ARE NOT GOD. You did not manifest the Virginia Tech shooting, or Columbine for that matter. You’ve transcended Christianity and Atheism, and now you need to transcend Subjective Reality. It’s a stepping stone, but now it’s hurting you and your readers. Here is the next step in your spiritual evolution:

Transcending the Control System: True Reality Creation (Part I)

In true matrix style, I can only show you the door. You must choose to walk through it.

You realize it's your option to read Steve's material. If you want to discuss it like a normal person, make a rational post asking others to help you understand something, but don't accuse Steve or anyone else of being completely "wrong." There is no such thing as right or wrong, especially when discussing spirituality and belief systems.