Steve Is Wrong, and Endangering His Readers

[VacMan]

I read the article.

What I got out of it was:

Manifesting things won't really work too well unless you take action. You can't just think things into existance.

It also trys to explain that there is a physical world that we live in, and that we should not ignore that aspect of our universe.

I think that this is a more common sense approach to IM and SR.

The article spells this out in a very long and detailed way.

I do think that people get confused about how things are "manifested."

You do need to think of what you want, visualize it, get emotionally connected etc. But this process really should just be the catalyst for you to get you pumped up enough to take the necessary actions to make your desired goal a reality.

[Angela]

OK, Seth, I get what what you're saying.

It is fun to be turned on to new ways of thinking by someone who is excited about discovery. Best wishes to you in being both the Exciter and the Excited.

[Seth]

Originally Posted by Mr.Mustache

You're wrong. You can't kill me unless I allow you too. You don't seem to understand subjective reality. Either reality is objective and you have no freewill because natural laws effect your behavior completely, or reality is subjective and all experience is a matter of choice.
Either you believe in a universe where everything happens for a reason or you believe in a reality where nothing happens for a reason.

Ha! Finally an argument I can completely smash. Since your reality is so subjective, just pretend that I’m inspiring you instead of upsetting you.

First of all, objectivity and subjectivity are not mutually exclusive. If I repeatedly punch you in the face, you can pull some crazy meditation crap and literally not feel it, using the subjective nature of reality. That is very cool, and worth learning. However, it doesn’t change the objective fact that I’m punching you in the face. Wouldn’t it be easier to objectively stop me than meditate away the pain?

ajhgfadadf. There, I just proved my free will. Okay ready, now you think about how you’re going to change yourself, subjectively stopping me from doing it again, and we’ll see who wins… 1, 2, 3, FKLASJHFKUHE. You lose. Care for a rematch?

If your kid does something dumb and you need to teach him a lesson, you can disconnect your objective "reaction" to yell, and instead explain things calmly. Some people act like "kid is bad, therefore I yell." Cause and effect. But reality is not purely objective! You have the power to subjectively change ANY feeling instead of running the "normal" reaction program.

Since I don’t know where you live, punching you in the face will be a hard example to prove. So how about you go stand in the middle of a busy highway, and see how long your subjective reality lasts until physics wins and a truck kills you. You CAN attain a high enough level of spiritual development to stop time, dodge bullets, and not get killed by the truck. But you are not an angel yet. Sorry.

See what I mean about your teachings putting people in danger, Steve? This guy thinks he’s invincible unless he chooses otherwise! Please personally set him straight, for the sake of every reader here.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

and pavlina LLC is a NON-profit company numb nuts. Do you see a $$$ sign anywhere?

Are you sure Pavlina LLC is a non profit? I thought Steve was using it as a commercial for profit entity. I have no problems with it being a for profit corporation.

[Steve Pavlina]

Pavlina LLC has always been a for-profit company, at least as far as the IRS is concerned. I posted about why I chose that form over a non-profit here:
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2007/03/future-plans/

I may form a non-profit down the road at some point, but I don't think it's the right vehicle for now. Non-religious non-profits have some serious limitations on how they can raise funds and especially on how they can compensate their staff.

Also, please refrain from personal attacks on other forum members.

[Seth]

Here are my main questions for both Steve and Erin, so they can see exactly what I want to know.

1. Mr. Mustache claims that a belief in subjective reality makes him invincible. He says, “You can’t kill me unless I allow you to.” He can’t get caught by the police, accidentally trip, or catch a cold unless he allows himself to. Is that your belief?

2. Do you believe in free will?

3. Do you believe that objectively evil entities exist, act on their own free will, and can cause human beings harm?

4. Re-quoted, for Erin: How can you say that the jury sentences the convict to death any more than the shooter sentences the students to death? Both are conscious exercises of free will.

You explain the importance of choosing between good and evil, and warn against the harm caused by objectively evil entities. Everything you write supports the belief that evil exists, and it has free will. It's not "love in disguise," it wants to hurt you. Referring to demons, you told me, “if they come in my house and are a threat to my family, I will end their life.” How can you justify that after you advocate the sanctity of life? And how is anything a threat to you if you are “fundamentally safe,” as Steve believes?

Do you reject Steve's model of subjective reality, or are you going to hug the next astral vampire you see?

Thanks for your patience, guys. I’m just trying to understand.

[Steve Pavlina]

If you listen to Podcast #13, my answers to all those questions should be pretty clear.

The questions themselves make a hidden assumption I don't agree with -- that I have to turn certain beliefs into my identity. So I can't answer them because I don't agree with the presupposition you've made. Asking if I believe in free will is like asking my computer if it believes it's a word processor. Sure, it can perform that function, but that isn't its identity.

A belief is a lens we can hold up to view reality from a particular perspective. All of the things you mentioned are lenses I can access as desired, but I wouldn't turn any of them into my identity. I see no need to become overly attached to any particular lens -- the collection is more valuable than its components.

The latest blog post on Spiritual Depth Perception addresses the belief-identity problem as well.

[Seth]

Actually, by your definition, asking if you believe in free will is like asking if you have Microsoft Word installed.

Basically everyone in the freaking universe uses Free Will. It does have some problems, but it's the industry standard, and there's NO WAY to avoid it.

If Erin doesn’t come back with a resounding, “Yes astral vampires can exercise free will, and harm human beings,” then I’m done. Hopefully she’ll update her entire website to stop confusing people into believing in objective reality. “Pick a Side, Any Side” and the “The Dangers of Astral Projection” will have to go. I’ll be out on the highway playing in traffic with my super subjective shield, or “Triple S” as I like to call it.

[Tempest]

I just want to point out that a lot of people read Steve's stuff, discard the articles they do not agree with and move in to the ones they do. I'd say I only agree with about half of Steve's teachings, but if I had focused on the half I did not agree with and stopped reading, I'd have missed some real gems. Not all of us are sheep who blindly obey everything "gurus" say. My belief system has pieces of everything from Christianity to Tony Robbins.

Just thought I'd toss that in. I've yet to find a line of teaching I agree with 100%, or even 75%.

[Lychee]

Reality is both objective and subjective. This earth and world existed before you did, apart from your subjective experience of reality. Objective reality is what is there independent of the observer - what is being observed - and subjective reality is simply our perception of it. In all of our realities, a hug is a hug no matter how you perceive it. Whether you think that hug is sincere or not is a part of our subjective reality.

[777]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

A belief is a lens we can hold up to view reality from a particular perspective. All of the things you mentioned are lenses I can access as desired, but I wouldn't turn any of them into my identity. I see no need to become overly attached to any particular lens -- the collection is more valuable than its components.

“One important use of lenses is as a prosthetic for the correction of visual impairments.

Another use is in imaging systems such as a binoculars, telescope, microscope, and camera (photographic lens).

Lenses do not form perfect images, and there is always some degree of distortion or aberration introduced by the lens which causes the image to be an imperfect replica of the object.” - Wikipedia

I use many different lenses, always alternating to view the Reality in a way that best serves me at any given time to maximise my growth and learning experiences and I agree with Steve that having the option to use several different lenses is most definitely very advantageous!

However, I do believe, when everybody has an awareness of the perfect Reality without having to look through any lens, although that option will always be there, an understanding of true oneness will prevail, and that will be a truly amazing experience leading to the ascension of our planet

And that is why I feel the article linked at the beginning of this thread is very important as, for me, it has brought me one step closer to understanding that perfect Reality. For anyone looking to explore this Reality, I would recommend reading The Ancient Secret of the Flower of Life by Drunvalo Melchizedek and also to do research on Sacred Geometry, Fibonacci mathematics and the Golden Mean.

[Seth]

+10 points to Lychee and +777 to 777. (Don't worry about your score, it's subjective). I sure would appreciate if Steve
admitted to using the "objective" lens while crossing the street. I find it interesting that he uses so many lenses, but abhors the basic lens of objectivity. You can talk to Steve all day about his lens of subjective reality, but if you ask him if he uses the lens of free will?

"ERROR... ERROR... MY COMPUTER IS NOT MICROSOFT WORD!"

Steve sure is a genius though. He's getting PAID for us to read his articles and disagree with him.

[Tempest]

Originally Posted by Seth

+10 points to Lychee. Steve sure is a genius though. He's getting PAID for us to read his articles and disagree with him.

What is so crazy about that? Open a newspaper and find the letters to the editor. People get paid to write the articles these readers are now arguing with. Heck, these people also laid down money to buy the paper with the article(s) they disagree with.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Seth

ajhgfadadf. There, I just proved my free will. Okay ready, now you think about how you’re going to change yourself, subjectively stopping me from doing it again, and we’ll see who wins… 1, 2, 3, FKLASJHFKUHE. You lose. Care for a rematch?

How do you know you weren't originally going to type "klklklklklk" but I used my "Subjective Reality Powers" to make you type "ajhdfadadf" instead?

In a subjective reality model you wouldn't be able to discern whether the idea to type "ajhdfadadf" was "YOUR" idea, or "MY" idea. You're not fully grasping how SR works yet.

If you went to bed tonight and had a dream, and inside that dream you saw Bruce Lee, and you said to him "Dude, what's going on? You're dead!" and he said "What?! No! I'm not dead, here, look I'll come over and slap you!" and he came over and slapped you inside the dream and you felt the slap, does that make him any less "fake?" inside your dream?

Even if the "avatars" inside your life display behaviour indicative of being independent thinkers/independantly conscious, there's no way to know for sure that they are actually conscious. It could just be an illusion, just like the illusion of any character in any of your dreams being conscious.

I don't know about you, but when I have dreams and someone in those dreams is talking to me I am fooled into thinking that they actually exist, they're conscious and talking to me so I talk back to them. If they attack me, I defend myself. It's a perfect illusion, UNTIL I *wake up* in my dream and it turns into a lucid dream and then things change. Once I fully wake up, I realize that those people weren't even there, I was really just talking to MYSELF.

Subjective reality is basically just like that.

Take care!

[impaul99]

Seth, also just thought of another way to explain it to you.

You think that your "free will" to write on the screen or punch someone in the face proves that everyone exists, but it only proves that you exist. You have no way of possibly knowing that I wrote this message to you as a seperate consciousness from you or if in some way you created me to write this message.

Anyway, just something to chew on.

[Dive Bomb]

Obviously this reality has limitations like dodging bullets and flying, things that we can't change. Than again, who's to say we really can't? Maybe we haven't figured out a way to amplify our power of belief in this reality. In our dreams its easier to gain superpowers because it's in your own head but for some reason this reality is different in that there must be some sort of strong resistance wave to really doing things that may seem impossible.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Dive Bomb

Obviously this reality has limitations like dodging bullets and flying, things that we can't change. Than again, who's to say we really can't? Maybe we haven't figured out a way to amplify our power of belief in this reality. In our dreams its easier to gain superpowers because it's in your own head but for some reason this reality is different in that there must be some sort of strong resistance wave to really doing things that may seem impossible.

In all dreams where we develop "super powers" it begins by realizing that this "might" be a dream. It is that realization that allows us to change our beliefs on what's possible. I think in this reality it works the same way. The more we take apart the "realness" of this reality, the more we're able to manipulate it.

[Mr.Mustache]

Originally Posted by Seth

Here are my main questions for both Steve and Erin, so they can see exactly what I want to know.

1. Mr. Mustache claims that a belief in subjective reality makes him invincible. He says, “You can’t kill me unless I allow you to.” He can’t get caught by the police, accidentally trip, or catch a cold unless he allows himself to. Is that your belief?

2. Do you believe in free will?

3. Do you believe that objectively evil entities exist, act on their own free will, and can cause human beings harm?

4. Re-quoted, for Erin: How can you say that the jury sentences the convict to death any more than the shooter sentences the students to death? Both are conscious exercises of free will.

You explain the importance of choosing between good and evil, and warn against the harm caused by objectively evil entities. Everything you write supports the belief that evil exists, and it has free will. It's not "love in disguise," it wants to hurt you. Referring to demons, you told me, “if they come in my house and are a threat to my family, I will end their life.” How can you justify that after you advocate the sanctity of life? And how is anything a threat to you if you are “fundamentally safe,” as Steve believes?

Do you reject Steve's model of subjective reality, or are you going to hug the next astral vampire you see?

Thanks for your patience, guys. I’m just trying to understand.

Seth- I don't know about Steve or Erin but I don't believe evil exists. All intentions are good but some are done out of ignorance and some are not. Hitler wasn't evil, he thought by killing the Jews the world would be better off. Hitler's racism was self-destructive and ignorant but it wasn't "evil". Any kind of villian does what they do because it makes them happy or satisfies a need. Wanting to be happy isn't evil, the way they achieve that goal is just self-destructive. There is no innate evil force to always balance with the good. So called evil is only a bad dream that humanity will wake up from. However, the longer we perpetuate the belief in an evil force there will be a seemingly evil force until we give those beliefs.

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by Mr.Mustache

Seth- I don't know about Steve or Erin but I don't believe evil exists. All intentions are good but some are done out of ignorance and some are not. Hitler wasn't evil, he thought by killing the Jews the world would be better off. Hitler's racism was self-destructive and ignorant but it wasn't "evil". Any kind of villian does what they do because it makes them happy or satisfies a need. Wanting to be happy isn't evil, the way they achieve that goal is just self-destructive. There is no innate evil force to always balance with the good. So called evil is only a bad dream that humanity will wake up from. However, the longer we perpetuate the belief in an evil force there will be a seemingly evil force until we give those beliefs.

Not everyone has the best of intentions. What if someone wants to harm another to gain something that the other possesses? Concocting an elaborate scheme to do so implies intelligence, not ignorance. If they didn't believe that it was wrong, why would they come up with underhanded plans to see it happen? If this person wants to be happy by attaining the goods which another person has, the way they achieve that goal is not only self-destructive but destructive in the sense that it impinges on the rights of another. It is different when you go into the territory of another person's rights.

Evil is considered to be what goes against Good or Truth. Believe it or not, there are people in the world today who do not want peace and do not care for other people. The Truth is everywhere in this planet - all one has to do is go look for it. Ignorance exists, but if it was such a minute problem then the condition of the world would not be as it is today. Willful ignorance is also the cause of evil. People just don't want to hear or see any other way of doing things so they deliberately turn away from other options.

I think "The Secret" and LoA has put so much emphasis on "feeling good" and ignoring what doesn't line up with your intentions as an excuse to remain in the dark about what is going on in the world. True, do not inundate yourself with negative news stories, but don't think that everything is nice and sunny. Be current, go outside and see what's going on but keep your focus on where it should be.

Man is inherently weak and selfish. If that was not true, then the crimes which are being committed today by the hands of humans would not be occurring in the first place. What are humans succumbing to? To the evil route, to the route which does not lead to Truth or growth. However, evil will never prevail because this universe is based on Goodness. But the opposite of goodness is evil.

[Angela]

One big difference I'm seeing between what Steve described in his post and many of the posters who are complaining about the post (or about Steve himself) is that Steve outlined what is so for him. He described a way of being that works for and empowers him. Many of the comments from posters who are irritated are making proclamations that sound like "The Truth" -- with an implied "should" about anyone who doesn't agree. When I have shoulds about others, I'm completely powerless. Whatever Steve's beliefs are, already they feel more empowering to me because he's not trying to change anyone. He creates a space of freedom for everyone to be exactly as they are and exactly as they are not.

This thread is a lovely microcosm of that, as his demeanor throughout has been calm, loving, and patient, even in the face of tremendous upset. I'm very impressed by that, and I want it for myself and for the world

Just to let you know what I've noticed here.

[joylangtry]

Originally Posted by Mr.Mustache