Steve Is Wrong, and Endangering His Readers

[Seth]

I don’t mean to start a flame war. I think if you read my comments with the same thoroughness as Steve’s articles, you will see my intentions are pure, and in line with promoting “personal development for smart people.” I admire and respect Steve and Erin, but I believe Steve’s views on subjective reality are promoting ignorance to the objective aspects of reality. Please read the article I linked to see how “subjective reality” puts you in danger, and we can discuss everyone’s opinions. I appreciate the intelligent and polite responses of Steve, Erin, and many forum members. Don’t you agree that anyone who flames me isn't doing very well with subjective reality?

[Brien]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

Also your statement that most smart people don't follow Christianity is absurd. 90 percent of Americans consider themselves Christians. So the "smart ones" are in that 10 percent? The US is a Christian Country. The former Soviet Union and now Russia is a atheist country. Unfortunately for them they never could understand that a socialist government doesn't do very well. They finally did but still can't get much accomplished. So, your little theory doesn't add up.

So. Capitalism = Christianity and Socialism = Atheism. Does it say that in the cut-and-dry Bible, too? What about Economic Success = Spiritual Enlightenment?

A little less bigotry please. You're better than that.

[777]

Originally Posted by Erock

There is no such thing as right or wrong, especially when discussing spirituality and belief systems.

Do I exist? Yes. Therefore is my answer to that right? It definately isn't wrong, as I am here writing this now.... So it is right.

As much as your statement is empowering when discussing spirituality for it encourages communicating different ideas, Jesus, the Buddha and many other highly evolved beings have spoken of only one true Reality, and that reality in which we exist is comprised of linear time where polarity does exist, so in my opinion, there is a right and a wrong, a true and a false.

Originally Posted by Seth

Here is the next step in your spiritual evolution:

Transcending the Control System: True Reality Creation (Part I)

In true matrix style, I can only show you the door. You must choose to walk through it.

Well I walked through it And I'd really recommend everyone else who is posting in this thread to walk through that door too and at least see what is on the other side before posting further. The article speaks a great deal of truth which really resonates with me and I'm sure will do so with many of you... As for the website it is posted on; there is a lot of information on there that repels me but I trust your intuition and higher self will guide you.

I do feel that article has brought my understanding much closer to the one true Reality that Jesus and the Buddha spoke of in their teachings, so thank you Seth

[Toine]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

When I write from a subjective point of view, my point of reference when I say "I" is consciousness itself, not one of its avatars who happens to be named Steve Pavlina.

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

I should really write a book on subjective reality.

Great idea! Just wondering if you ever considered using other terms for "Subjective Reality" and "I"? This might prevent some confusion and will perhaps set you aside from other non-related belief systems with which you are normally associated.

Will you write the book from an I consciousness perspective, from a Steve Pavlina perspective or both? And if the latter, would you make a distinction? If so, how?

[Brutha]

It is a dangerous belief system, Mr. Mustache, because while you are changing yourself into a better person, I can still come to your house and kill you. That is my free will. You can say “I love you, evil” as I kill you, but you will still be dead.

No, as a matter of fact you can't.
The amount of people who can kill someone to prove a point is very small.
It requieres a lot of conscious decisions and you are probably not capable to make such decisions.

[Savage]

When writing articles I try to avoid inventing tons of new vocabulary, preferring to use English terms that fit closely enough. I definitely lose some precision, but it keeps the ideas more accessible to casual readers. I want to avoid the situation of barricading ideas behind a wall of terminology.

Some "spiritual" communities, like Scientology or the integral community that surrounds Ken Wilber's work, have their own vocabulary that gives members a sense of belongingness. It's hard to understand their writings unless you learn the lingo first, which takes time. This approach creates a strong line between insiders and outsiders. It isn't hard to see why custom vocabularies are one of the top signs of a cult.

I want my articles to be freely accessible, so I'm willing to accept a loss of precision and as well as the occasional flames (which invariably come from people who've never even met me, yet assume they know me intimately just from my articles). I can always write books to cover topics in more depth.

[Cas]

Originally Posted by Seth

Cas, I totally understand where you’re coming from, and there is a huge subjective component to reality. If you’re in prison, you can choose to like it. But if you choose to believe you’re not in prison, you’re consciously choosing ignorance. That is your choice, but you’ll have to go to the “personal development for ignorant people forums.”

Well yeah... it's your choice to perceive it as either a school or a prison.

[Kazeko]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

The US is a Christian Country. The former Soviet Union and now Russia is a atheist country. Unfortunately for them they never could understand that a socialist government doesn't do very well. They finally did but still can't get much accomplished.

Hmmm... interesting. I am from Russia and I completely disagree with you. Both USA and Russia are multinational countries, with large set of cultures and beleifs. I can tell, that most of the Russians consider themselves Christians. Most of them are "just formally baptized", but I guess it is a common situation in the World. "There are many called ones, but much less chosen ones".

Soviet Union - yes, Soviet people were forced to be atheists since their childhood. (If you were not atheist, you were the enemy of the Communist Party, with all the consequences, like prison or death - so you can imagine...).

When "democracy came to our land", it became very popular, "to go back to our roots", to our history, to restore demolished churches, to beleive in God and to pray. Every Christmas and Easter you can see all-channel TV translation showing our President and government in the church.

As for "they finally did but still can't get much accomplished" - you should see Russia back in 1995 and compare it with Russia today. We have accomplished A LOT...

So if you want to know about Russia - ask Russian

... never had an idea my first post would be something like that... anyway, thanks for getting me started!

[Amadeus]

Kazeko, I can't tell you how happy it makes me feel when I read your comments about Russia today. I had no idea that so many Russians are embracing Christianity.

As for earlier comments, of course I know that Capitalism does not equal Christianity. However, a Capitalistic country usually gives people the freedom for people to worship the way they want to. This is the basis of the US government. It was founded by Christians that wrote freedoms in our government to allow people to worship whomever they wanted.

[absvan]

Originally Posted by Seth

You don't think limiting your understanding of life to one book is ignorant? Understand the Bible, and then read something else and understand that, too.

I think you need to read more about Subjective Reality/Advaita Vedanta. I believe you have only read Steve's post and then come to the conclusion that its crap.

Why dont you take time to drop your objective lens, learn about subjective lens and try to see reality through subjective lens.?If you dont find it to be congruent with your belief system, then put back your old lens and carry on with you life.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Well yeah... it's your choice to perceive it as either a school or a prison

They're the same thing arn't they?


Personally I think people are getting a little silly on this topic. I was going to post something earlier. But something kicked in, in my head, I thought it would just be stupid to say something. I was angry then and i guess thats why. I would hae attacked someone stupidly and you know how it goes....


So here is what I think.


Using different beliefs to look at the world is empowering. It allows you to gain a fuller picture of what is happening around you. Its like looking at a pyramid from different sides. Each side reveals a new dimension to it and allows you to build a 3D model. If you only view one side all you will see is a 2D model...

[ballhit]

Steve hides behind subjective reality a lot. I don't believe it's unintentional.

Steve experienced God-consciousness once (perhaps he does so on a daily basis due to his advanced stages of brain play) I forget the exact post but he described being outside looking at a bird or a flower or something and his consciousness ballooned.

Big deal.

He shifts back and forth between i and I. Sometimes it's the nerdy ex polyphasic-sleeping marathon runner who probably can't dance that well. Sometimes it's God-consciousness being channeled through one intelligent typist monkey. Do not forget that Pavlina LLC is for-profit, and whatever is written here generates that profit.

Cults also chant mantras. "Subjective Reality" sounds like a panacea to me. Maybe I'm just an arsehole for disagreeing with Steve Pavlina...that seems to be the type of response people get when they do such a thing. But it's okay because i'm just contradicting myself. (subjective ha ha ha)

Solipsism = RIDICULOUS

He embodies Advaita Vedanta in that everything is one thing. But he wants to grow anyway.

Unchecked Personal Growth Within A Consciousness Container (a human body) = CANCER

Get yours!

[Akashic_Librarian]

ballhit take a chillpill man.


Whats this about PD = Cancer?

I havn't died yet.

And the last time I checked steve doesn't want people to always agree with him, but to just take what they want from what he writes...


and pavlina LLC is a NON-profit company numb nuts. Do you see a $$$ sign anywhere?

[Seth]

Cas and Akashic_Librarian made very good points. You can choose to view something as a school or prison, but if you don’t understand both viewpoints, then you are naive. If you think it is only one way and refuse to question your beliefs, then you have consciously chosen ignorance. There is always another perspective to understand, another lens to try on. It is ignorant to refuse to try a new one because you are too attached to your current beliefs.

You can feel smart when you realize a 2D triangle is actually a 3D pyramid. But why stop there? I’m telling you now that there is 4D, and many more beyond that. You can no longer claim naiveté, so if you resist expanding your belief system then you are choosing ignorance.

So far I have a 100% approval rating from people who read the article I linked.

Originally Posted by 777

Well I walked through it And I'd really recommend everyone else who is posting in this thread to walk through that door too and at least see what is on the other side before posting further. The article speaks a great deal of truth which really resonates with me and I'm sure will do so with many of you...

I feel that article has brought my understanding much closer to the one true Reality that Jesus and the Buddha spoke of in their teachings so thank you Seth

You're welcome, 777! I'm so glad I could help someone improve their understanding of spirituality!

I look forward to hearing everyone's reply on that article.

[rini17]

Seth, thank you for linking the article, I am, too, often trying to materialize things by visualizations and to manipulate my inner feelings in desire to manipulate reality, and it doesn't work well.

But, for one I don't share your view on Steve's articles as dangerous. If I had experience of Oneness like him, maybe I'd looked to everything through subjective reality model too.( Maybe I hadn't such experience exactly for this reason ) But I am not going to forcefully twist my perception just because of his cool articles. Maybe there are people who will do, but it's their lesson to learn and I don't see need to protect anyone, reminding them is sufficient.

[SecretSeven]

Steve I hope you are not going to stop writing about subjective reality. Maybe consider writing a new revised blog of it to tell clear things up???

[SecretSeven]

Transcending the Control System: True Reality Creation (Part I)

This website seems like a cult site, Seth.

[Seth]

Why does it seem like a cult site, any more so than Steve's articles on subjective reality? I didn't see anything on that site that asked you to join a group. Just like Steve's articles, you are free to use the information as you see fit, or even ignore it.

[SecretSeven]

Maybe it is not a cult, but it contains a lot of imagination. Spiritual attacks, spiritual hiearchy, life is a dream...etc

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Seth

Just like Steve's articles, you are free to use the information as you see fit, or even ignore it.

Exactly. So why get all hot under the collar about what Steve says, then? Don't you trust the other readers to make their own evaluation?

(regarding the article you linked, I found it very ignorable. Just thought you'd like to include my data in your statistics. )

[SecretSeven]

Seth, you are saying that Steve's ideas are wrong, when the site you suggested is even more far fetched. Steve's ideas are just ideas.

[Seth]

Erin will tell you it’s not imagination. She is a psychic, after all. She makes a living connecting with people's angels, spirit guides, and deceased relatives, and relaying the information to you. Don't you think she'd be out of business pretty quickly if she had to imagine valid advice for every customer?

Please check out her website. I used to insist on ignorance and claim spirits and ghosts were fake, but now I have integrated them into my reality. As I improve my belief system, everything is becoming explainable. If you want to take a shorter route to explaining the universe, simply believe that the Bible is true and everything else is going to hell.

[SecretSeven]

All I am saying is that you cannot attack Steve for having false beliefs when they are no more "out there" than your own.

[Seth]

I got hot under the collar, Angela, because I found the errors in Steve’s model of subjective reality, and I found the solution. I wanted to tell him, and all his readers, what they were missing. True reality creation simply adds the objective components to Steve’s model of subjective reality. Therefore, it is superior. If you disagree, you will remain stuck at your current level of spiritual development.

Ignore the objective aspects of reality at your own peril. Isn’t that right, Erin?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Seth

I got hot under the collar, Angela, because I found the errors in Steve’s model of subjective reality, and I found the solution. I wanted to tell him, and all his readers, what they were missing. True reality creation simply adds the objective components to Steve’s model of subjective reality. Therefore, it is superior. If you disagree, you will remain stuck at your current level of spiritual development.

Ignore the objective aspects of reality at your own peril. Isn’t that right, Erin?

Seth, you must be very sure of what I am missing, to be telling me what I am missing. I wonder, how do you know what I am missing?

[Seth]

Angela and Secret Seven, reality must have some objectivity if “progress” and “growth” are possible, or they will be impossible to measure. That is the fatal flaw in Steve’s model of a 100% subjective reality.

Steve wrote a while back that he recognized his level of consciousness was superior to that of a baby, but he had no way to measure the differences between belief systems of adults. Well here’s your answer: integrate objectivity into the model of subjective reality.

The spiral of spirituality I described is objective. Steve’s belief in subjective reality is SUPERIOR to Christianity. Here’s how he got there:

Ignorance: Christianity (0 degrees, belief in an external God)
Rejection: Atheism (180 degrees, rejection of God)
Revelation: Subjective Reality (360 degrees, belief that we are all One, aka God)

That completes one loop up the spiral, ironically ending back up at ignorance. Here are Steve’s next steps:

Rejection: Seth is right and I need to change (540 degrees)
Revelation: True Reality Creation (720 degrees, we are all God, but each one of us is an individual fragment of the One consciousness, each with free will to act objectively)

I don’t know where it goes from there, because I haven’t gotten there yet. I know it goes higher, because refusing to update your beliefs is by definition "ignorance." There is ALWAYS more out there. Do you prefer 720 degrees or 360? Or maybe 0? It’s your choice, but 720 is higher than 360, and INCLUDES it. Think "mother knows best" or even "higher self knows best." I am smarter than a baby. True reality creation is better than subjective reality. Get it?

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Seth

Angela and Secret Seven, reality must have some objectivity if “progress” and “growth” are possible, or they will be impossible to measure. That is the fatal flaw in Steve’s model of a 100% subjective reality.

Steve wrote a while back that he recognized his level of consciousness was superior to that of a baby, but he had no way to measure it. Well here’s your answer: integrate objectivity into the model of subjective reality.

The spiral of spirituality I described is objective. Steve’s belief in subjective reality is SUPERIOR to Christianity. Here’s how he got there:

Ignorance: Christianity (0 degrees, belief in God)
Rejection: Atheism (180 degrees, rejection of God)
Revelation: Subjective Reality (360 degrees, belief that we are all One, aka God)

That completes one loop up the spiral, ironically ending back up at ignorance. Here are Steve’s next steps:

Rejection: Seth is right and I need to change (540 degrees)
Revelation: True Reality Creation (720 degrees, we are all God, but each one of us is an individual fragment of the One consciousness, each with free will to act objectively)

I don’t know where it goes from there, because I haven’t gotten there yet. I know it goes higher, because refusing to update your beliefs is by definition "ignorance." There is ALWAYS more out there. Do you prefer 720 degrees or 360? Or maybe 0? It’s your choice, but 720 is higher than 360, and INCLUDES it. Think "mother knows best" or even "higher self knows best." I am smarter than a baby. True reality creation is better than subjective reality. Get it?

I also have tried to reconcile SR with the objective world. Some how I have to think both are operating. It's a matter of where you place your identity boundary.

If you can indeed be one with everything - then I start to wonder that being one with everything would mean there is nothing left outside of the boundary - the boundary of identify has become everything and there is no way to look or experience anything else because there is no "outside" - it's all inside.

The objecitve world is out there as long as there is a boundary somewhere of part of your identity. It could be at your skin or in your mind/persona or possibly extend to everything that your 3d senses pick up - which is where Steve's SR boundary is, I think. You can only be aware of what your 3d senses are picking up.

I want to reconcile the models so both some form of SR or oneness actually exists as an overlay to some ego personal boundary experience. Both exist in some fashion at the same time. There's a ego part and a oneness part - and if one is identified with all that is, there's still some boundary that allows this oneness to be experienced. The being of one consciousness gets rushed through the senses as a conduate or experience.

[Angela]

Seth, I believe that all of the regular readers of Steve's blog are committed to reviewing and updating their beliefs and operating systems, with the intention of effecting personal growth, for themselves and others. (I'll review that belief and update it, if necessary )

Your approach sounds like proselytizing to me ("I'm right, you're wrong, you need to change!") and proselytizing doesn't go a long way towards creating a space of freedom for people, hence some of the resistance you're encountering here. Do I understand you to believe that you have achieved a higher level of spiritual advancement than we seekers here have, and that you wish to help us out by giving us your hand to lift us up to your loftier heights? If indeed you are the more spiritually advanced, might you have found a communication technique that is more inspiring, and less bullying? Your posts in this thread seem to make a lot of demand that others should change, but I'm not seeing a whole lot of self-awareness in these posts -- how you might be open to understanding another's point of view, for instance, or what you might be learning about yourself by listening to others. Can you see what I mean?

[Mr.Mustache]

Originally Posted by Seth

It is a dangerous belief system, Mr. Mustache, because while you are changing yourself into a better person, I can still come to your house and kill you. That is my free will. You can say “I love you, evil” as I kill you, but you will still be dead.

Please know that I have no intention of killing you. But I could! Think your way out of that one.

You're wrong. You can't kill me unless I allow you too. You don't seem to understand subjective reality. Either reality is objective and you have no freewill because natural laws effect your behavior completely or reality is subjective and all experience is a matter of choice. If I accepted the belief that my murder was imminent and I was constantly worried I would eventually get murdered.

Non-duality says that how you think/feel/choose internally it will be reflected outward. Get it? Now you might say this just can't be true! Well, then you will be using non-duality against and you will get a make-shift objective reality. However if you give subjective reality you will notice a great deal of synchronicities. Either you believe in a universe where everything happens for a reason or you believe in a reality where nothing happens for a reason.

[Seth]

I see exactly what you mean, Angela. I have a lot of skill and experience at cutting people down and belittling them, and believe it or not, I’m trying extremely hard to be civil here. I am the perfect stereotype of an Aries, so that should help explain things. I’m only 22, and have intelligence beyond my years, but obviously lack the wisdom. I have a lot to learn about inspiring people to change their minds, rather than pissing them off and turning them against me.

I believe I have achieved a higher-level intellectual model of reality than Steve. That is what I meant by “Steve is wrong.” But having a better model of reality doesn’t necessarily mean you live a better life, or are better in any other way. I am a perfect example.

I can’t contribute much wisdom to this board, but I am excited to tell you about the intellectually superior model of reality I found. I did get that one comment from 777 that it really helped him, so I hope it can help others, too.